What I Like About Universalism

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
14,111
4,778
113
53
West Coast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The word evil in Isaiah refers to natural disaters not sin or sinfulness.
Genesis tells us that God created humans in His image and that He called His work good when He was finished
 

lawrance

New Member
Mar 30, 2011
738
19
0
I certainly believe that individualism has gone too far; the Western World is suffering from it today. Realitivism, consummerism, private interpration of scriptures, and pathological drive for private ownership have all worked together to isolate members of our society. Instead of relying on our neighbor, we do not even know them. The result is widespread deppression and despair.


That is not what i am on about aspen we are all individuals and we have that right.
But i agree with you that you are right about those other things as that comes from rejecting God.
 

TheWarIs1

New Member
Dec 11, 2009
284
3
0
The word evil in Isaiah refers to natural disaters not sin or sinfulness.
Genesis tells us that God created humans in His image and that He called His work good when He was finished
No no no

Evil here is the same word used as in knowledge of good and evil.

רעה רע
ra‛ râ‛âh
rah, raw-aw'
Bad or Evil
Naturally or Morally bad

now you're trying to decipher according to the beliefs that you've accepted.


Yahweh created Evil, he said so..
"I the lord do all these things."


He expressly created wicked men for the day of evil
Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

All for himself did he do this....

.
 

HammerStone

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Feb 12, 2006
5,113
279
83
36
South Carolina
prayerforums.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
He expressly created wicked men for the day of evil
Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

There is an important difference between making wicked men and making wicked men to specifically be wicked men. The latter falsely attributes God with the desire to create evil. It pulls from this verse what is not said - a common error.


Saying this Ok because one might be a christain ??

No, I'm simply trying to extract the polarization that is created amongst men and women. Let me ask it this way, then.

Yes or no answer, please. Tom is welcomed to respond as well.

1) If someone believes in Universalism, they are not saved and are not Christian?

2) If someone errs in any one doctrine, they are not saved?

My statement is simply to address whether or not the existence of hell is a core fundamental of the faith and understand why that is the case. I'm also trying to pull out the difference between leaving open the door for a Christian as opposed to writing someone off because of an erroneous doctrine.

Folks visit us and see this all-or-nothing bickering, but to be totally honest if it's all or nothing, we are all out of it because all fall short. It might not be Universalism, but it will be something else.
 

TheWarIs1

New Member
Dec 11, 2009
284
3
0
There is an important difference between making wicked men and making wicked men to specifically be wicked men. The latter falsely attributes God with the desire to create evil. It pulls from this verse what is not said - a common error.
It appears to me that is exactly what he desires to do. He created the Wicked for that very evil time.
He created wicked to be just what they are. Wicked evil men.


the deceived and the deceiver are his.
 

avoice

Member
May 17, 2011
168
8
18
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There is an important difference between making wicked men and making wicked men to specifically be wicked men. The latter falsely attributes God with the desire to create evil. It pulls from this verse what is not said - a common error.




No, I'm simply trying to extract the polarization that is created amongst men and women. Let me ask it this way, then.

Yes or no answer, please. Tom is welcomed to respond as well.

1) If someone believes in Universalism, they are not saved and are not Christian?

2) If someone errs in any one doctrine, they are not saved?

My statement is simply to address whether or not the existence of hell is a core fundamental of the faith and understand why that is the case. I'm also trying to pull out the difference between leaving open the door for a Christian as opposed to writing someone off because of an erroneous doctrine.

Folks visit us and see this all-or-nothing bickering, but to be totally honest if it's all or nothing, we are all out of it because all fall short. It might not be Universalism, but it will be something else.

Your 1st questions doesnt apply IMO
no one can decide wether one is a Christian we are not even to try
one can say they are simply because they go to church every Sunday but we have all seen that kind.
Being a Christian isnt about what one claims.
We can never know who is going to saved and who is not ..we do not know anyones heart only God does and thats not even our call we dont have a right to claim it is or use it as a reason to justify anything.

your 2 nd question is differnt

If someone err's in doctrine they do it without knowing better ..they are judged on that criteria... how many come here and argue a doctrine they dont believe ? Few if any I suspect..

However if one is in a postion of control and you have knowlegde of a false doctrine.
And allow it to go out to others unopposed or encourage it where others may be mislead you are then guilty of the sin.
Your not in judgement of a person then but falsehood a lie....

A situation even the aspostels encountered were they to let lies or rumors to be preached along with the word because the individual was also a Christian? No they corrected the falsehood. And put a stop to it ..think 1 Thess.4 here did paul not correct the error.

HEBREWS 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins

Notice in the verse it hinges on knowledge of a thing.

What you are purposing is no differnt than if one comes here and says I practice Wicca
but I do believe in Christ also.

Your saying that the belief of Wicca should be allowed to be advertised and put forward
because that person could be a Christian also...
when you have full knowledge that the religion is faulty. .
That sin then falls on your head. As you are in knowledge of the truth.
It isnt judgement of a person but a religious doctrine or falsehood.

In my mind a nondenomintional forum is called so because its doesnt imbrace or deny any religion
people are free to debate singlar beliefs of their religion .. be it hell, rapture or tongues.... as it always has two sides and a person can choose whitch they want to believe
but a site that allows encouragement and avertisment of entire religions because it has some truths one might agree with is just simply no longer non denominational.
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
14,111
4,778
113
53
West Coast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Evil is no a 'thing' or force. It is the absence of good; like cold is the absence of heat.

Evil was created through the misuse of God's good creation. God did not create it because the Bible clearly states that God cannot sin.

War mentioned that I am relying on information I was taught - of course, I am. I am a human being - we all rely on information we have been taught.
 

tomwebster

New Member
Dec 11, 2006
2,041
107
0
76
....
1) If someone believes in Universalism, they are not saved and are not Christian?

2) If someone errs in any one doctrine, they are not saved?

My statement is simply to address whether or not the existence of hell is a core fundamental of the faith and understand why that is the case. I'm also trying to pull out the difference between leaving open the door for a Christian as opposed to writing someone off because of an erroneous doctrine.

Folks visit us and see this all-or-nothing bickering, but to be totally honest if it's all or nothing, we are all out of it because all fall short. It might not be Universalism, but it will be something else.


Confusion reigns supreme on this board because of the famine for the Word of God and the false doctrines that are allowed to exist. Why do you think God spends so much time warning about false prophets and teachers in the end days? People are deceived into thinking they don’t need to study His Word because they are told they are either going to be gone or everyone is going to be saved anyway. Five of the virgins have empty lamps and do not make it to the wedding supper, the door is shut and they are on the outside. All ten were virgins, the five foolish ones were still virgins when they returned after buying oil, unfortunately they should have known that it was not the time to "buy and sell" any more.

What time of the day was it when the bride groom came? It was at night. The Day of the Lord begins at night when no one expects it to begin. ("As a thief in the night") We are still in flesh bodies but the rules have changed. Check it out in Scripture.


 

TheWarIs1

New Member
Dec 11, 2009
284
3
0
Evil is no a 'thing' or force. It is the absence of good; like cold is the absence of heat.

Evil was created through the misuse of God's good creation. God did not create it because the Bible clearly states that God cannot sin.

War mentioned that I am relying on information I was taught - of course, I am. I am a human being - we all rely on information we have been taught.
God said he created evil You don't believe it because you were taught that he can not sin?

Just because he created wicked men or evil does not mean he sinned.
how do you make such connections?

Yes people often defend the ideology that they've accepted even if most teachings are from milk babes.
Many milkmen desired what appeared to be a easy Pastors job.
Many never study to show themselves approved but just go along with whats been passed down.
its sad really
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
14,111
4,778
113
53
West Coast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
God said he created evil You don't believe it because you were taught that he can not sin?

Just because he created wicked men or evil does not mean he sinned.
how do you make such connections?

Yes people often defend the ideology that they've accepted even if most teachings are from milk babes.
Many milkmen desired what appeared to be a easy Pastors job.
Many never study to show themselves approved but just go along with whats been passed down.
its sad really


It is an easy connection to make - creating an evil person is a sin, It is the creation of a less-than human being - God cannot do it because He cannot sin. Humans were created to love - we decided to go against our nature, just like Satan did, which is sinful. God cannot go against His nature because He has chosen to be Good.

Romans 3:23 (NIV) says that every person is guilty of sin and has missed the mark of the sinless standard God has set. If God was guilty of sin, then that standard would be void and the Bible would have no value. Romans 6:23 (NIV) declares that the “wages of sin is death.” God does not fall under this penalty, which is further evidence that He does not sin. Also, Romans 5:12 (NIV) proclaims death and sin were also brought into this world by man and Satan.


So are you suggesting that I must have learned about Christianity from a 'milkbaby'? That is a bold claim from someone who has no idea about the person they are describing.
[font="Arial][size="2"]I did not make this stuff up - it is classic Augustinian theology.[/size][/font]
 

TheWarIs1

New Member
Dec 11, 2009
284
3
0
It is an easy connection to make - creating an evil person is a sin, It is the creation of a less-than human being - God cannot do it because He cannot sin. Humans were created to love - we decided to go against our nature, just like Satan did, which is sinful. God cannot go against His nature because He has chosen to be Good.

Romans 3:23 (NIV) says that every person is guilty of sin and has missed the mark of the sinless standard God has set. If God was guilty of sin, then that standard would be void and the Bible would have no value. Romans 6:23 (NIV) declares that the “wages of sin is death.” God does not fall under this penalty, which is further evidence that He does not sin. Also, Romans 5:12 (NIV) proclaims death and sin were also brought into this world by man and Satan.


So are you suggesting that I must have learned about Christianity from a 'milkbaby'? That is a bold claim from someone who has no idea about the person they are describing.
[font="Arial][size="2"]I did not make this stuff up - it is classic Augustinian theology.[/size][/font]
You missed your contradiction.
Every person is guilty of sin. Yet if God created someone evil then it's a sin.

sin simply means Bad.

God said he created Evil.

creating an evil person is a sin,
Show me where the scripture tells you this is the case.
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
14,111
4,778
113
53
West Coast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You missed your contradiction.
Every person is guilty of sin. Yet if God created someone evil then it's a sin.

sin simply means Bad.

God said he created Evil.


Show me where the scripture tells you this is the case.

There is no contradiction. The act of creating a 'sinful person' means to purposely create a broken or less-than good human - it is the same thing as creating a faulty product. The act of sinning is to misuse God's creation - for example, A&E misused their own nature by disobeying God and by taking on a responsibility they were not created to perform - determining good and evil. If God created a person who is 'less good' or evil, He is actually committing a sin against Himself because He is creating a broken version of a person.

Also, it is sinful to create a being for the express purpose of torturing for eternity. God cannot sin because if He did, He would not be good.
 

TheWarIs1

New Member
Dec 11, 2009
284
3
0
There is no contradiction. The act of creating a 'sinful person' means to purposely create a broken or less-than good human - it is the same thing as creating a faulty product. The act of sinning is to misuse God's creation - for example, A&E misused their own nature by disobeying God and by taking on a responsibility they were not created to perform - determining good and evil. If God created a person who is 'less good' or evil, He is actually committing a sin against Himself because He is creating a broken version of a person.

Also, it is sinful to create a being for the express purpose of torturing for eternity. God cannot sin because if He did, He would not be good.
You said it and We are all sinners. To create a evil man is the same thing as a sinner.

sin = bad
evil = bad
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
14,111
4,778
113
53
West Coast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You said it and We are all sinners. To create a evil man is the same thing as a sinner.

sin = bad
evil = bad

what is 'bad'? Is your definition of bad an opposing force of good?

My definition is the same as Augustine's and C.S.Lewis, which is a 'lesser good' or the absence of good.
 

Episkopos

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2011
12,895
19,470
113
65
Montreal
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
I can tell Universalists that they are going to Hell, but they can't say the same to me. Though some might tell me to go there : )

What do you like/dislike about Universalism. Perhaps someone would like to define Universalism for us? Does it also include Satan and his evil forces?

Universalism shows the tension between the 2 greatest commandments. Love God AND love others.

If we love others, wouldn't we want all to be saved?

But the balance is shown in that we don't live in a world that is led by humans. There IS a God! There is such thing as truth!

Universalism really is a kind of humanism. Satanic forces are not covered by this sentiment! :)
 

TheWarIs1

New Member
Dec 11, 2009
284
3
0
what is 'bad'? Is your definition of bad an opposing force of good?

My definition is the same as Augustine's and C.S.Lewis, which is a 'lesser good' or the absence of good.
Not a great deal of difference in these terms
However you decide to call it Sin and Evil are both Bad. Same meaning and God Created Evil. "I do these things": he said so.
 

TheWarIs1

New Member
Dec 11, 2009
284
3
0
Universalism shows the tension between the 2 greatest commandments. Love God AND love others.

If we love others, wouldn't we want all to be saved?

But the balance is shown in that we don't live in a world that is led by humans. There IS a God! There is such thing as truth!

Universalism really is a kind of humanism. Satanic forces are not covered by this sentiment! :)
Sure we do want all to be saved.
Jesus said "with man it is impossible"
But with God ALL things are possible.

now if ALL things are possible then Salvation of every man is possible.
If God desires that ALL be saved, then can't he save every man?


That is his desire, That all are saved and come to the knowledge of Christ


1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1Ti 2:5 for one is God, one also is mediator of God and of men, the man Christ Jesus,
1Ti 2:6 who did give himself a ransom for all--the testimony in its own times--

To Ransom ALL means to pay for everyone's freedom
Christ paid the sin debt of every man
 

Foreigner

New Member
Apr 14, 2010
2,583
123
0
now if ALL things are possible then Salvation of every man is possible.
If God desires that ALL be saved, then can't he save every man?


That is his desire, That all are saved and come to the knowledge of Christ


1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1Ti 2:5 for one is God, one also is mediator of God and of men, the man Christ Jesus,
1Ti 2:6 who did give himself a ransom for all--the testimony in its own times--

To Ransom ALL means to pay for everyone's freedom
Christ paid the sin debt of every man


-- Ohhhh, so close.

God paid the ultimate price so that all men can be saved. (Emphasis on 'all')

But God gave man free will and man much CHOOSE to be saved. Man must CHOOSE to make Jesus his Lord and Savior and give his life to Him.

Like handing them a winning lottery ticket. If they don't go and cash it in...
 

TheWarIs1

New Member
Dec 11, 2009
284
3
0
-- Ohhhh, so close.

God paid the ultimate price so that all men can be saved. (Emphasis on 'all')

But God gave man free will and man much CHOOSE to be saved. Man must CHOOSE to make Jesus his Lord and Savior and give his life to Him.

Like handing them a winning lottery ticket. If they don't go and cash it in...

You see how I backed up my opinions with scripture.
Try doing the same.. Don't be a parrot.

If you can't back up the beliefs that you've accepted then you are just a clanking old tool spouting off words that you've heard.
no respect here
 

tomwebster

New Member
Dec 11, 2006
2,041
107
0
76
You see how I backed up my opinions with scripture.
Try doing the same.. Don't be a parrot.

If you can't back up the beliefs that you've accepted then you are just a clanking old tool spouting off words that you've heard.
no respect here


Sure we do want all to be saved.
Jesus said "with man it is impossible"
But with God ALL things are possible.

now if ALL things are possible then Salvation of every man is possible.
If God desires that ALL be saved, then can't he save every man?


That is his desire, That all are saved and come to the knowledge of Christ


1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1Ti 2:5 for one is God, one also is mediator of God and of men, the man Christ Jesus,
1Ti 2:6 who did give himself a ransom for all--the testimony in its own times--



The Scripture you used certainly do not back up Universalism. They say God desires that all men be saved but not that all men are saved. Men still have free will.

1 Timothy 2:4 ὃς πάντας ἀνθρώπους θέλει σωθῆναι καὶ εἰς ἐπίγνωσιν ἀληθείας ἐλθεῖν.

"who desires all people to be saved and come to full knowledge of the truth."

θέλει = Verb: Third Person Present Active Indicative Singular = is willing, desires


The price has been paid, the gift is there but man must accept it and open it

 
  • Like
Reactions: tomwebster