What I Like About Universalism
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Tom you don't comprehend words well.
I said it is God's desire that all men be saved.
That is what It says and what I wrote.
surely he can have his desires met?
Now speaking of the free gift that you throw an exclusion into...
Read this... And notice there is no exclusions.
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
it says that because of Adam judgment came upon ALL men
due to the righteousness of Christ the free gift came upon ALL men unto justification of life,
no and's, or's, if's or buts
no exceptions mentioned
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
.
Were you once a sinner?
Were you born as a sinner?
You claim God can not create sin because he would be a sinner.....
Yet it says we all are sinners.
did he not create us all as sinners?
You are not thinking
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Why are you answering my question with a question and then accusing me of not thinking?
You are the person who is claiming that God created evil, sin and bad - without defining any of the terms
Lucifer, Adam, and Eve created sin by committing sinful acts, which is the only way to create evil, sin, or bad.
Therefore, according to your logic - God must have sinned.
God create us as SInners.
Agree?
IF so then he is a sinner by your flawed logic.,
You' are not thinking.
I don't have to answer your elementary question.. We know. erm. I should say I know what the scripture says on that.
But you may deny that too.
the scriptures says God created Evil. Yet you deny the scripture is true.
I don't have to define what is written.
Look it up in Strongs concordance or another
the simple fact is God said he created Evil.
Accept it or talk to him about it.
tomwebster
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No, you don’t comprehend “free will.” God did not take away free will. He cannot and will not force anyone to accept His free gift. Someone said something about having a free winning lottery ticket in your hand, if you keep that ticket in your pocket it might be worth a million dollars, but the money does not do you any good until you turn the ticket in and claim the prize. God’s free gift of Grace does you NO GOOD if you do not accept it and claim it. Sorry!
You are misusing Romans 5:18. The work on the cross did not remove man’s free will.
Universalism will lead those who believe it to that wide road that leads to destruction, and it will be far worse for those that teach it. It's tough to swim with a millstone tied around your neck.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
According to Genesis, God created us in His image and when He finished, He declared His work good, not sinful.
No you don't comprehend what is written.
the verse I mentioned never says anything about free will.,
You comprehend nothing .
You have poor debating and or communication skills.
Really Tom
you must go back on my ignore list or you will drive me to cursing
tomwebster
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aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Thank you Tom
Here is the verse that War is claiming I am mistranslating
Isaiah 45:7
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.
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[font="Verdana][size="3"]Like I said War, the word in context is translated disaster.
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tomwebster
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There is NO debate about it. The verse doesn't need to say anything about free will, we still have it. You are reading things into that verse that are not there. You are trying to take one verse and build a theology on it and you are totally wrong. Your Theology is built on sand but think what you want, it’s your choice. If you teach it here I will come out against you
And I could care less if you ignore me.
You guys don't understand anything that you read.
Isa 45:7 .... I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. KJV & JPS
The word EVIL as I said already is the same Hebrew word Ra that is used in Genesis for the tree knowledge of Good and Evil.
Go ahead and change the scriptures to suit your misguided ideology but it is a false notion.
H7451
רעה רע
ra‛ râ‛âh
rah, raw-aw'
From H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally).
You two guys are just clueless if ever anyone was
We will just have to agree to disagree
there is no point in debating people like you
.
Isa 45:7 .... I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. KJV & JPS
The word EVIL as I said already is the same Hebrew word Ra that is used in Genesis for the tree knowledge of Good and Evil.
Go ahead and change the scriptures to suit your misguided ideology but it is a false notion.
H7451
רעה רע
ra‛ râ‛âh
rah, raw-aw'
From H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally).
You two guys are just clueless if ever anyone was
We will just have to agree to disagree
there is no point in debating people like you
.
tomwebster
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The problem is your understanding of the word "evil" as used in Isa 45:7 with the word "create" ( bârâ' ). When used with "evil" (ra‛) requires the rendering "bring about." Evil is never rendered “sin.” God brings calamity (evil) about as the inevitable consequence of sin.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil (H7451): I the LORD do all these things. (bring about calamity)
H7451
רעה רע
ra‛ râ‛âh
rah, raw-aw'
From H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: - adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine ra’ah; as adjective or noun.]
See how it is used in other places in Scripture:
Psa 141:5 Let the righteous smite me; it shall be a kindness: and let him reprove me; it shall be an excellent oil, which shall not break my head: for yet my prayer also shall be in their calamities.
1Sa 10:19 And ye have this day rejected your God, who himself saved you out of all your adversities and your tribulations; and ye have said unto him, Nay, but set a king over us. Now therefore present yourselves before the LORD by your tribes, and by your thousands.
Psa 94:13 That thou mayest give him rest from the days of adversity, until the pit be digged for the wicked.
Ecc 7:14 In the day of prosperity be joyful, but in the day of adversity consider: God also hath set the one over against the other, to the end that man should find nothing after him.
Neh 2:10 When Sanballat the Horonite, and Tobiah the servant, the Ammonite, heard of it, it grieved them exceedingly that there was come a man to seek the welfare of the children of Israel.
Pro 15:10 Correction is grievous unto him that forsaketh the way: and he that hateth reproof shall die.
Ecc 2:17 Therefore I hated life; because the work that is wrought under the sun is grievous unto me: for all is vanity and vexation of spirit.
Jon 4:6 And the LORD God prepared a gourd, and made it to come up over Jonah, that it might be a shadow over his head, to deliver him from his grief. So Jonah was exceeding glad of the gourd.
Num 11:11 And Moses said unto the LORD, Wherefore hast thou afflicted thy servant? and wherefore have I not found favour in thy sight, that thou layest the burden of all this people upon me?
Ecc 8:6 Because to every purpose there is time and judgment, therefore the misery of man is great upon him.
Psa 41:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. Blessed is he that considereth the poor: the LORD will deliver him in time of trouble.
Deu 6:22 And the LORD shewed signs and wonders, great and sore, upon Egypt, upon Pharaoh, and upon all his household, before our eyes:
Eze 14:15 If I cause noisome beasts to pass through the land, and they spoil it, so that it be desolate, that no man may pass through because of the beasts:
Eze 14:21 For thus saith the Lord GOD; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?
Gen 26:29 That thou wilt do us no hurt, as we have not touched thee, and as we have done unto thee nothing but good, and have sent thee away in peace: thou art now the blessed of the LORD.
Num 11:15 And if thou deal thus with me, kill me, I pray thee, out of hand, if I have found favour in thy sight; and let me not see my wretchedness.
God did NOT create sin!
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Thanks for all the encouragement, War. That was an example of sarcasm - see how the same words used in a different context can take on a different meaning? One of the problems of dissecting scripture is that some people get into the mindset that each word is somehow magically placed in each verse / takes on an exclusive meaning / defines entire doctrines. Language doesn't work that way - it is dynamic not rigid. Specific words require context to be defined correctly. Therefore, the Hebrew word can take on different meanings based on context.
I have already provided you with plenty of reasoning behind the fact that God cannot produce evil or sin, yet you have chosen to react like a child with insults and a refusal to consider material and reasoning that is obviously new to you.
You lie. don't flatter yourself. You provided poor excuses for why you can't believe what God inspired.
God said it and I believe it
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Consider thyself, and thine own works, are they perfect .., before condemning others to hell, unless one might get trapped. What is important is to walk the ways of the Lord, Who believes, will DO and not hear only !
You didn't give plenty of reasoning and the little reasoning you gave is seriously flawed
God said he created evil. . case closed!
shlama
Properly understanding how God meant He creates evil per Isaiah 45:7 goes with the subject of that Isaiah 7 chapter. It's about His calling Cyrus to conquer Babylon and free His people Israel. It's about an act using force to bring righteousness.
Many seem to have problems understanding this today; must be because of lies taught in the world's public education system today.
If someone murders a child, are we doing evil by using force in casting that murderer in prison? No.
If a policeman stops an armed robber from killing others by shooting and killing that robber, is that doing evil?
In other words, is the use of 'force' always an evil act? That's what Christ's enemies want us to think, that any usage of force means doing evil.
Some misguided souls even treat God's coming judgments upon the wicked as a type of evil work. It will not be. It will be an act of righteousness.
The author of evil and sin is Satan himself. He was the one who sinned from the beginning to bring in evil. God did not create Satan to rebel. Satan chose to rebel and sin against God. And ever since, God has used force to turn Satan's evil acts around, and in response Satan's servants have planted a lie among God's people, i.e., the idea that God does evil in return.
Many seem to have problems understanding this today; must be because of lies taught in the world's public education system today.
If someone murders a child, are we doing evil by using force in casting that murderer in prison? No.
If a policeman stops an armed robber from killing others by shooting and killing that robber, is that doing evil?
In other words, is the use of 'force' always an evil act? That's what Christ's enemies want us to think, that any usage of force means doing evil.
Some misguided souls even treat God's coming judgments upon the wicked as a type of evil work. It will not be. It will be an act of righteousness.
The author of evil and sin is Satan himself. He was the one who sinned from the beginning to bring in evil. God did not create Satan to rebel. Satan chose to rebel and sin against God. And ever since, God has used force to turn Satan's evil acts around, and in response Satan's servants have planted a lie among God's people, i.e., the idea that God does evil in return.
Didn't God know Satan would fall when he created him if he knows all?
I believe he knew. Satan means Adversary.
Satan was missing some important traits when he was created and it seems he was created to do what he did.
Regardless, the bible says God created Evil and that don't mean he sinned in doing so which is a ridicules idea with no scripture to support that.
Shlama
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