What I Like About Universalism

[Duckybill]

So your salvation is riding on your understanding of the English translation - wow. I am sorry you are carrying this extra burden, when Christ is sufficient.

What burden?

In any case, we are not talking about salvation - we are talking about the word 'fear' and how it has a broader meaning in the language it was written in. Knowing the original languages of the Bible is not a requirement of salvation, but a general understanding (or willingness to learn) of the languages is important for teaching. For example; do you believe

Understanding the Genesis Flood is really not that difficult. God made them an example to all who live ungodly, including religious folks.

Mathew[font="Verdana][b][url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+19:24&version=31"]19:24[/url]: "[/b][/font][font="Verdana]Again I tell you, it is easier for a [/font][b]camel[/b][font="Verdana] to go through the eye of a [/font][b]needle[/b][font="Verdana] than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.” is supposed to be interpreted as a real camel trying to fit into a real eye on a real needle?"
[/font][/size][size="2"][font="Verdana]
[/font][/size][font="Verdana][size="2"]Certainly not. Jesus is referring to a main entrance to the city of Jerusalem, which camels had to enter on their knees.[/font] [font="Verdana]Understanding the cultural context and the broader meaning of words by learning from the original language enhances understanding.[/font][/size][/quote][size="3"]
You are trying to make the simple difficult. It is not. Only those who do God's will will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Most don't even know what God's will is. How can they enter. They can't. Many who believe in Jesus will be rejected, forever.

Matthew 7:21 (ESV)
[sup]21 [/sup]“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

 

[aspen]

[font="'Book Antiqua"]What burden?
[/font]
[font="'Book Antiqua"]"your salvation is riding on your understanding of the English translation"[/font]

Understanding the Genesis Flood is really not that difficult. God made them an example to all who live ungodly, including religious folks.

How can that be true when Noah was hanging out naked and drunk in his tent after the Flood? Apparently, he missed the lesson. And Ham breaks all the rules by barging into his father's tent (a precursor to the ban on entering the Holy of Holies) - apparently, the Flood lesson made no impact on him either. So if the lesson of the Flood was to make an example of people who were ungodly - it sure failed abysmally. According to your understanding of the Flood account, God may as well have wiped out a whole colony of ants (accept 8) in order to teach them not to walk single file.

You are trying to make the simple difficult. It is not. Only those who do God's will will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Most don't even know what God's will is. How can they enter. They can't. Many who believe in Jesus will be rejected, forever.

Matthew 7:21 (ESV)
[sup]21 [/sup]“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Nice verse - has nothing to do with my post. My post is distinguishing the difference between the exclusion of all rich people from Heaven (which includes you and I and all 1st world country inhabitants) and the inclusion of rich people who are truly humble - more humble that the camels who have to past through the gate on their knees. Big difference and worth knowing.

Thinking and learning new ways of viewing previously held beliefs is not 'trying to make the simple difficult' Being a Christian does not mean we have to check our brains at the door of the church.

 

[Duckybill]

What burden? "your salvation is riding on your understanding of the English translation"

No burden. Our English Bibles are quite clear and consistent. I do find it very interesting the constant attacks by religious folks who don't like what they clearly say. Almost never has anything to do with mistranslation.

Understanding the Genesis Flood is really not that difficult. God made them an example to all who live ungodly, including religious folks. How can that be true when Noah was hanging out naked and drunk in his tent after the Flood? Apparently, he missed the lesson. And Ham breaks all the rules by barging into his father's tent (a precursor to the ban on entering the Holy of Holies) - apparently, the Flood lesson made no impact on him either. So if the lesson of the Flood was to make an example of people who were ungodly - it sure failed abysmally. According to your understanding of the Flood account, God may as well have wiped out a whole colony of ants (accept 8) in order to teach them not to walk single file.

None of which are valid excuses for us. We will be held much more accountable. We have been clearly warned.

Nice verse - has nothing to do with my post. My post is distinguishing the difference between the exclusion of all rich people from Heaven (which includes you and I and all 1st world country inhabitants) and the inclusion of rich people who are truly humble - more humble that the camels who have to past through the gate on their knees. Big difference and worth knowing.

But it doesn't say that rich folks can't inherit God's Kingdom. In fact it says they can.

Thinking and learning new ways of viewing previously held beliefs is not 'trying to make the simple difficult' Being a Christian does not mean we have to check our brains at the door of the church.

Yes Aspen, I'm aware of your animosity toward our English Bibles. That is quite common. But that doesn't make them wrong. I have no doubt that if you were expert in Hebrew and Greek that you would also reject them. The problem isn't with our English Bibles Aspen.

 

[aspen]

No burden. Our English Bibles are quite clear and consistent. I do find it very interesting the constant attacks by religious folks who don't like what they clearly say. Almost never has anything to do with mistranslation.

I see you are retreating back to your talking point. I cannot help but believe that you understand my post completely and simply choose to skim them for material that support your strawman:

"No burden" (choosing to ignore my point that you are adding a requirement on to your salvation by only accepting the English translation of the Bible);
"Our English Bibles are quite clear and consistent." (straw - a fact that does not conflict with learning the broader meaning of words in their original form);
"I do find it very interesting the constant attacks by religious folks who don't like what they clearly say" (strawman - Aspen is only trying to muddy the clear understanding of scripture by liberalizing and explaining every thing meaningful away);
"Almost never has anything to do with mistranslation. (more straw - Aspen simply hates the message of the Bible and so he translates it in his own image)

None of which are valid excuses for us. We will be held much more accountable. We have been clearly warned.

So it is a warning - despite the fact that it did nothing to curb sin - for us to do what? Also, I thought God said He would never send another Flood to kill all of us?

But it doesn't say that rich folks can't inherit God's Kingdom. In fact it says they can.

Really? So a camel can fit through an eye of a needle?

Yes Aspen, I'm aware of your animosity toward our English Bibles.

Ah, I see you have completed your strawman! Congratulations!

That is quite common. But that doesn't make them wrong. I have no doubt that if you were expert in Hebrew and Greek that you would also reject them. The problem isn't with our English Bibles Aspen.

Right...... the problem is with my hatred of God's Word! Too bad you couldn't just say it, rather than insinuating it. Guess I better stop wasting so much time reading my English translation of the Bible.

 

[Rach1370]

So "fear God" is a request?

Hey Ducky. I think it depends on how you define 'fear'. I know you have disagreed with Aspen on this, but truly, I have not heard a single teacher imply that this 'fear' we should have of God, is terror. We are told elsewhere to love God, He is our Father. You cannot love that which terrifies you. Fear here is talking about our respect and awe of God, and yes, a fear of His fatherly displeasure and possible discipline, but no, certainly not true, gut wrenching fear. We do not fear Him because he drowned the entire world, we respect that power, and we love our Father who is righteous judge of the earth. We love Him for loving us so much He gave us a way, the only way, to be spared the same judgement.

Truly, there is a vast difference between actual fear for a parent, and a healthy respect for the authority they wield. It is always easy to see the difference in children if they love and respect their parents, or if they truly fear those who are supposed to love and protect them. They same applies to our heavenly Father. He would not tell us to love Him, trust Him and put all our faith in Him, if we were also meant to be terrified of Him.

In 1 Peter 2:17 the word 'fear' does appear, yes. The Greek word φοβέομαι does mean fear, or dread. But it also means 'reverence', which is defined as: "a feeling or attitude of deep respect tinged with awe; veneration".

Now I suppose you could just take the 'dread' part of it, but my point above is that 'dread the Lord' and 'love the Lord' don't really go hand in hand. And when we are told to 'love the Lord your God with ALL you heart and ALL you soul'...it just doesn't add up that we can fit dread into our hearts and souls as well.

 

[Duckybill]

The big problem is that the majority of humans will find out too late what "fear God" really means.

Matthew 10:28 (ESV)
[sup]28 [/sup]And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[aspen]

The big problem is that the majority of humans will find out too late what "fear God" really means.

Matthew 10:28 (ESV)
[sup]28 [/sup]And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

How about this Ducky, I admit that I am afraid - in fact terrified of your view of God. If that is the true God, I want nothing to do with him.

 

[Duckybill]

How about this Ducky, I admit that I am afraid - in fact terrified of your view of God. If that is the true God, I want nothing to do with him.

I quoted Jesus' view.

 

[aspen]

I quoted Jesus' view.

Yes, His view out of context. You actually managed to turn a passage, specifically written about not fearing, into one about fearing God. Here is the entire passage:

26 “So have no fear of them, ifor nothing is covered that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known. 27 What I tell you in the dark, say in the light, and what you hear whispered, proclaim on jthe housetops. 28 And kdo not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him lwho can destroy both soul and body in hell.629 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny?7 And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. 30 But meven the hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 Fear not, therefore; nyou are of more value than many sparrows. 32 oSo everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, 33 but pwhoever denies me before men, qI also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.
Jesus is reassuring His disciples that people are nothing to fear because God is on their side and He values them and will take care of everything. Basically, He is saying don't worry, God is in control. Not, fear Him!

 

[Duckybill]

Yes, His view out of context.

Do you ever quote a single verse?

You actually managed to turn a passage, specifically written about not fearing, into one about fearing God. Here is the entire passage:

26

“So have no fear of them, ifor nothing is covered that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known. 27 What I tell you in the dark, say in the light, and what you hear whispered, proclaim on jthe housetops. 28 And kdo not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him lwho can destroy both soul and body in hell.629 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny?7 And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. 30 But meven the hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 Fear not, therefore; nyou are of more value than many sparrows. 32 oSo everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, 33 but pwhoever denies me before men, qI also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.

Doesn't change it at all Aspen.

Jesus is reassuring His disciples that people are nothing to fear because God is on their side and He values them and will take care of everything. Basically, He is saying don't worry, God is in control. Not, fear Him!

Then who is Jesus saying to fear???

Matthew 10:28 (ESV)
[sup]28 [/sup]And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[aspen]

Do you ever quote a single verse?



Doesn't change it at all Aspen.


Then who is Jesus saying to fear???

Matthew 10:28 (ESV)
[sup]28 [/sup]And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Oh com'mon Ducky! You cannot be THIS concrete and literal.

It is rhetorical - it is like a father saying to a child who is throwing a tantrum "you better be quiet or I will give something real to cry about!"
Jesus was re-assuring them by telling them in essence that they really had nothing to be afraid of.

 

[Duckybill]

Oh com'mon Ducky! You cannot be THIS concrete and literal.

It is rhetorical - it is like a father saying to a child who is throwing a tantrum "you better be quiet or I will give something real to cry about!"
Jesus was re-assuring them by telling them in essence that they really had nothing to be afraid of.

You didn't answer. Who is Jesus saying to fear?

Matthew 10:28 (ESV)
[sup]28 [/sup]And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[tomwebster]

Duck, maybe you should fear Him! I will revere Him.

 

[aspen]

You didn't answer. Who is Jesus saying to fear?

Matthew 10:28 (ESV)
[sup]28 [/sup]And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Answer my question Ducky - what is the Kingdom of God?

 

[Duckybill]

Answer my question Ducky - what is the Kingdom of God?

You know that Jesus said to fear God. Can't you even admit it?

 

[aspen]

You know that Jesus said to fear God. Can't you even admit it?

I addressed your question. You have failed to answer mine, why is that?

BTW, as stated before, fearing God is not the point of the passage. I feel like I am being interviewed by Stephen Colbert "who did Jesus warn against in the passage?" - "Well Stephen, the passage is actually talking about...." [suddenly Colbert picks up a hammer and hits my hand with it] "God! That hurt!!", I scream. Colbert looking smug "I accept your apology".

 

[Duckybill]

Duck, maybe you should fear Him! I will revere Him.

1 Peter 2:17 (NASB)
[sup]17 [/sup]Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king.

1 Peter 2:17 (NIV)
[sup]17 [/sup]Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.

1 Peter 2:17 (ESV)
[sup]17 [/sup]Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.

1 Peter 2:17 (WesleyNT)
[sup]17 [/sup]Honour all men, Love the brotherhood, Fear God,

1 Peter 2:17 (NKJV)
[sup]17 [/sup]Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.

1 Peter 2:17 (NRSV)
[sup]17 [/sup]Honor everyone. Love the family of believers. Fear God. Honor the emperor.

1 Peter 2:17 (BBE)
[sup]17 [/sup]Have respect for all, loving the brothers, fearing God, honouring the king.

1 Peter 2:17 (Darby)
[sup]17 [/sup]Shew honour to all, love the brotherhood, fear God, honour the king.

1 Peter 2:17 (GW)
[sup]17 [/sup]Honor everyone. Love your brothers and sisters in the faith. Fear God. Honor the emperor.

1 Peter 2:17 (KJV)
[sup]17 [/sup]Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

1 Peter 2:17 (MaceNT)
[sup]17 [/sup]of God. Be respectful to all, love your brethren, fear God, and honour the king.

1 Peter 2:17 (NASB77)
[sup]17 [/sup]Honor all men; love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king.

1 Peter 2:17 (NLT)
[sup]17 [/sup]Respect everyone, and love your Christian brothers and sisters. Fear God, and respect the king.

1 Peter 2:17 (TLB)
[sup]17 [/sup]Show respect for everyone. Love Christians everywhere. Fear God and honor the government.

1 Peter 2:17 (WEY)
[sup]17 [/sup]Honour every one. Love the brotherhood, fear God, honour the Emperor.

1 Peter 2:17 (ASV)
[sup]17 [/sup]Honor all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.

I addressed your question. You have failed to answer mine, why is that?

Why don't you tell us what the Kingdom of God is if you know. Do you even know?

BTW, as stated before, fearing God is not the point of the passage. I feel like I am being interviewed by Stephen Colbert "who did Jesus warn against in the passage?" - "Well Stephen, the passage is actually talking about...." [suddenly Colbert picks up a hammer and hits my hand with it] "God! That hurt!!", I scream. Colbert looking smug "I accept your apology".

You cannot even admit that Jesus said to fear God.

 

[aspen]

Why don't you tell us what the Kingdom of God is if you know. Do you even know?


You cannot even admit that Jesus said to fear God.

Still not going to answer,huh? If I cannot not get you to answer a basic Christian question that we probably agree on, how am I supposed to convince a sinner they are evil?

 

[Duckybill]

Still not going to answer,huh? If I cannot not get you to answer a basic Christian question that we probably agree on, how am I supposed to convince a sinner they are evil?

I don't think you know the answer yourself. Give it a try.

Now, who did Jesus say to fear?

Matthew 10:28 (ESV)
[sup]28 [/sup]And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Whom did Peter tell us to fear?

1 Peter 2:17 (ESV)
[sup]17 [/sup]Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.

The answers are quite simple Aspen. Or are you too proud to admit you're wrong?

 

[aspen]

I don't think you know the answer yourself. Give it a try.

Now, who did Jesus say to fear?

Matthew 10:28 (ESV)
[sup]28 [/sup]And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Whom did Peter tell us to fear?

1 Peter 2:17 (ESV)
[sup]17 [/sup]Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.

The answers are quite simple Aspen. Or are you too proud to admit you're wrong?

As soon as I am wrong, I will admit it. You can read my corrections all over this board - have you been wrong and admitted it, on this board?


Mathew is recounting a story where Jesus is telling His disciples not to fear people - BUT if they are going to insist on being afraid, at least they should fear God who has the power to destroy them. He then goes on to say that they do not even have to fear God because they are more valuable than sparrows and God cares for sparrows down to the last feather - also Jesus is their friend and also a friend of God; two reasons not to fear God. Like I said before - you are demanding me to answer a question that distorts this passage of scripture. Answering "God" to a rhetorical question is ridiculous because it makes the passage seem like we are supposed to be afraid of God, even when Jesus gives us two reasons not to fear Him.


Peter is telling us to honor everyone - including God. Then he continues by providing positive ways to respond to two different people and God. Notice "love" and "honor" are both positive - fear seems out of place, especially considering the commandment to love God; like Rach mentioned before, love and fear are incompatible. The reason, of course has been explained to you repeatedly, is that the word fear explains the emotion a person who is experiencing awe, not terror. We are supposed to love, honor and be in awe of God.