What if your definition of "Good" differs from God's?

[Eltanin]

When God created the world, He declared it was good...

Many Christians define God's declaration of "Good" to mean he made everything perfect.

I see a contradiction with many Christian arguments that I have never been able to reconcile... Especially the ideology that there is no grey when it comes to black-and-white: It is either all good or all bad.
These same Christians will also say that God is all-knowing, meaning He knows the Past, Present, an Future...

This is where things get complicated for me, and all the non-Christians I know, and many Christians who I know that do not hold to traditional interpretations...

God Created everything... He created it and was happy with what He did... He gave humanity souls and freewill, in essence He gave them a choice. He deliberately created all things fallible... He created everything imperfect.

If He knows all, then He knows we were to fall... If He didn't want that, then He would have taken step to prevent it...
UNLESS, That is what He wanted all along...

According to the Eden account, the tree of knowledge was forbidden... Adam and Eve were content with that and left it alone until a tempter (the Aramaic does not refer to the devil, but an adversary, in a non-proper generic form)... The serpent came along... Even spiritual adversaries cannot act without God's permission (passive or active) in coming against one of God's children, as demonstrated in the Job account.

I want to know what people's definitions of perfect and good are, and how it relates to what they feel God defines as perfect, and I want to see people truly evaluate, IN THEIR OWN WORDS, why they believe what they do...

This is a challenge for real discussion, and a practice of opening your mind and being honest about forming your own questions, and thus reaffirming what you believe...

I don't want to see text walls of scripture, because I know what the Bible says... I have been memorizing it since I was small... I think everyone in this forum has a decent grounding in what the word says , so I sincerely request that if a verse must be referenced, please just give the reference, not the whole verse.

I want to have a discussion, not a sermon.

 

[Strat]

All i know is a life of struggle,the war of the spirit and the flesh...looking forward to the end of it and eternity ahead where i won't have to struggle anymore.

 

[Eltanin]

All i know is a life of struggle,the war of the spirit and the flesh...looking forward to the end of it and eternity ahead where i won't have to struggle anymore.

Do you feel that the continual struggle is a bad thing? Do you feel that your struggles make you a stronger person, or do the wear you down and weaken you?

 

[Groundzero]

Do you feel that the continual struggle is a bad thing? Do you feel that your struggles make you a stronger person, or do the wear you down and weaken you?

Well, I'm probably a bit of an oddball if I state that I thrive on battle and struggle. I think I was born a soldier

I wouldn't say God created things flawed or imperfect. God created things perfect, but he left them with a free will. We, and the angels, had the option to rebel. And if that was the case, we would have to accept the consequences. There's a pretty clear picture that both humanity and some angels rebelled.

Good/perfect is whatever God approves of. Something interesting, is that God didn't use superlatives. He just said good. God only sees good and bad. Not good, better, best, bad, worse, worst.

 

[Strat]

Do you feel that the continual struggle is a bad thing? Do you feel that your struggles make you a stronger person, or do the wear you down and weaken you?

Ask any soldier in any battle what his greatest desire is,he will tell you it is for the war to be over and for him to be able to go home,most soldiers pity anyone who enjoys the battle and wants it to go on...indeed the chances are they probably havn't seen much combat to start wih.

I used to hear the old folks at church when i was a kid say that this life's struggles prepare one for heaven....that may be,but in this life if you are to be prepared for something you do so by duplicating the conditions in which you are going to be in order to be ready...heaven being heaven as described in the bible this cannot be the case and enduring struggles to be worthy of heaven is also not a possiblity considering the finished work of Jesus,so i am often left without any real reason apart from the fact that i am a new creature struggling in the same body that housed the old creature and this will continue to some degree until i die....now i know and expect that some resident bible scholars will throw a bunch of scriptures at me and tell me how unbiblical this all is,it's ok...i am familiar with pious condescension and the treatment that the great unwashed like me receive from time to time.

 

[Eltanin]

Well, I'm probably a bit of an oddball if I state that I thrive on battle and struggle. I think I was born a soldier

Honestly, I think that it is part of our condition that thrive during adversity...

Even scientific study shows that generally, people who suffer more hardship seem to have a greater appreciation and desire for life... It also stated that those who are born in easy circumstance do not feel as much respect for their own existence... The same study suggested that there were higher suicide percentages among wealthy demographics, than there were among the poor... I really wish I could find that paper again....

... But this leads me to question if this isn't what God had in mind all along when He placed the Tree of Knowledge in Eden...

 

[Strat]

Honestly, I think that it is part of our condition that thrive during adversity...

Even scientific study shows that generally, people who suffer more hardship seem to have a greater appreciation and desire for life... It also stated that those who are born in easy circumstance do not feel as much respect for their own existence... The same study suggested that there were higher suicide percentages among wealthy demographics, than there were among the poor... I really wish I could find that paper again....

... But this leads me to question if this isn't what God had in mind all along when He placed the Tree of Knowledge in Eden...

What do people in America,myself included know about suffering in regard to being a christian apart from our personal struggles ?...ask somebody in China or some other place where being a Christian can cause one to be tortured in ways we can't imagine if they have a zest for life and a spring in their step and say thank you sir may i have another every chance they get.....Americans have corrupted christianity in many ways perhaps even turning it into some sadomasochistic exercise....as far as God planning the whole thing goes,the bible says God tempts no man,i suspect that also includes setting him up for a fall.

 

[Eltanin]

No one LIKES adversity, and most people wouldn't consider it a good thing... But just because we don't like it, does not mean it does not do us good...

Adversity is not always evil... that doesn't mean it is always good either... The way that I see it, some things just are...

Humans thrive when they are challenged... Yes, some challenges are too much, but when all challenges have been completed, what is a person's reaction? Normally it is "What now?" and they go to find new challenges if none come to them...

I know what soldiers fight for. My father never lets me forget... He fought in Vietnam and was stationed in the Middle East for awhile, but even today, he is home and he is not a soldier anymore, but he is always finding a cause... I think that is part of what has helped him survive some of the stresses many of his comrades succumbed to.

What if it was God's plan all along to place humanity into an atmosphere where they had to make an effort to become better through adversity?

What if Eden was not a paradise meant for humanity to dwell in forever? What if it was God's intention that Eden was the nursery for humanity's earliest age? Maybe it was where God placed us for the time needed to establish a familiarity needed to begin a relationship?... Much as any parents do with their infant children... Restrict them to where we know they are safe, and allow them to build enough trust and fledgling love that they can be directed as they grow? What if Eden was that safe haven that God the Father provided for us, in the infancy of humanity?

 

[michaelvpardo]

I'm reasonably sure that anyone who thinks, has asked themselves these questions, but we head into the area of presumption when we look for answers outside of the scripture. The word "good" is derived from the word "god". The person(s) of God are the definition of good. In giving us choice, God gave us the ability to do evil, but not the desire. That is, "doing good" is doing that which is according to God's will, His character, and in His likeness, doing anything else is therefore evil. God gave us choice and if He didn't we wouldn't be like Him (having choice), however, man didn't know what evil is until falling from God's grace through disobedience, and again how could we be like God without knowing the difference between good and evil? When God created man, He created him in innocence, not knowing good and evil. God could've prevented Adam from sin, but sin was in that sense part of God's permissive will. When a child first learns to walk, the parent knows that the child is going to stumble and fall, but these go with learning how to walk. How would we know God's character (and to imitate it) without being the recipients of grace, mercy, and love, and without observing justice, wrath and recompense? God isn't a part of creation, so He couldn't simply just make us the same as Him (if He did, then we'd be Him and have forgotten it, by definition quite impossible), but He created us in His image and had to use some process to complete us in His character. We may object to the notion that God created some for salvation and some for destruction, but this also remains a matter of our choice, salvation being the "Good" or godly choice and destruction being the "evil" or ungodly choice. The completion of humanity, the renewal in the image of God in the person of Christ Jesus, is a person in the image of God, still having choice, but choosing the good, choosing God.
The proof for this is found in the person of Jesus Christ, the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Falling had to be a part of the plan for the revelation of God's character and express image in the person of His Son, who died for us, and now lives so that we may never die.

 

[Strat]

God gave man a paradise to live in,he screwed it up and rather than admit it he builds some elaborate fantasy that it's what he was supposed to do along....people have way too much time on their hands....whats next,are we to believe that heaven will realy be Hell or that we can screw that up to and launch into another round of the whole thing all over again

The question is often ask what do non believers think when the read some of the stuff posted here....if it were me sometimes i would just close the Bible and give up.

 

[Eltanin]

If man were to stay in the Garden, nurtured and protected forever, how would we grow? There would be no room for growth... It would be a like a gold fish in a fish bowl...

To me, the idea that we could have stayed in paradise is a fantasy... and that one couple messed everything up for all of us... The fact is, if any one of us had been the very first man or woman in Eden, we would have made the same decision eventually... To me that shows that it was meant to happen...

We only have a very small part of the Eden story, and many people believe that story of the beginning would fit in that bit of story...

 

[Strat]

If man were to stay in the Garden, nurtured and protected forever, how would we grow? There would be no room for growth... It would be a like a gold fish in a fish bowl...

To me, the idea that we could have stayed in paradise is a fantasy... and that one couple messed everything up for all of us... The fact is, if any one of us had been the very first man or woman in Eden, we would have made the same decision eventually... To me that shows that it was meant to happen...

We only have a very small part of the Eden story, and many people believe that story of the beginning would fit in that bit of story...

Growth ? that is the lie the devil first told Eve,as Genesis tells us "For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof,that your eyes shall be opened(growth) and ye shall be as Gods ( a lie straight from Hell) knowing good and evil....sin is not growth....Jesus did no sin,did he need growth? did he instruct people to sin to grow ?,or did he warn people to avoid sin...as much as from within as without.....please point out any scripture that suggest sin and wickedness produces anything good and that God is ever pleased with it.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

I feel evil existed before Adam and Eve because it was figuratively represented by the tree in the garden. The tree itself may not have been evil but if you ate the fruit you had a problem.

When God created the world and said that ... "It was Good" ... I am sure he meant it exactly. (because he was talking about only the world)

After Eve ate the fruit God said ... "this is not good".

If he was describing the whole universe including the spiritual realm , he probably would have said .... "it is good except for the portion that is evil which I will destroy some day"

But he was not describing everything , he was describing the world which he had just created. A lot of stuff was in existence before he created the world , we are not given the details.

We are not told the origins of evil , but I expect God allowed the possibility of it by freedom of choice within the (angelic)(spiritual)(satanic) realm .... after all that is where it had its start .... the world and mankind came later.

Some of this evil was transmitted to Adam & Eve when they partook of the fruit

Part of that evil still lives today within mankind today including each of us here.

I think the whole issue is a battle of good over evil. God represents the good (of course)

Another way to look at it is like a giant chess game between God and Satan , and we are the game pieces manipulated by either of them by our freedom of choice. They are both competing for our souls. One tells the truth , the other lies.

But God wins in the end because he invented the game in the first place and he is the greatest chess player that ever lived.

By default mankind is born on the losing team because he ate the fruit of the loser tree.

If you believe that God will win the game , you will put all your trust in Him and let him manipulate you and He will bring you to the winners table on the giant chessboard. You cannot get there on your own..

When God made the world and said that it was "good" is no different than saying a jar of cyanide in your pocket is good . It can leach gold out of rock and bring you wealth your whole life if you are a gold miner. You can carry that cyanide in your pocket your whole life without harm. It is not evil . But if you take a tiny sip you are dead.

A sip of cyanide will kill you in a few seconds. There is no antidote.

Eating the forbidden fruit is a long slow death that continues today. There is an antidote.

It is the Savior and the other tree that is still in the good garden. The tree of life. Revelation says we will eat from it some day.

Lets make sure we are on the winning team.

 

[jerzy]

...the angels, had the option to rebel.

Text, please.

... I expect God allowed the possibility of it by freedom of choice within the (angelic)(spiritual)(satanic) realm ....

Who said that?

...game between God and Satan , and we are the game pieces manipulated by either of them by our freedom of choice. They are both competing for our souls. One tells the truth , the other lies.

Where you found this written?

 

[Axehead]

A Creator has the right to "test" His creation. God tests everything that He creates and declares it good or not. If not good, then just like the Potter He will start over with the lump of clay.

God's righteousness can be seen in Creation. Everything He made produces after its kind and it has continued till this day.

The very act of creating man with free choice, implied that the man would have to be allowed to exercise that free choice. And God would test His creation of man to see if man would love Him and obey Him. God tests all of our hearts. God tests everything He creates.

You know the rest of the story. How the first Adam failed, but the second Adam (Jesus Christ) did not fail the test and Jesus Christ became the first-born of an entire new race (New Man) of people on earth. Neither Jew nor Gentile, nor male or female, but a New Man. Men and Women filled with the Spirit of God.

God will have a Bride to present to His Son. We are being tested...whether we will turn away from all of our idols and turn towards the Lord with a WHOLE HEART.

Axehead

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Who said that?

I did.

Where you found this written?

my post # 13

 

[jerzy]

I did.

my post # 13

I wanted to see something from God's word not for your fable.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

I wanted to see something from God's word not for your fable.

Look it up yourself and learn something . The angels look longingly and with great interest in what we humans do (or don't do)

 

[jerzy]

The angels look longingly and with great interest in what we humans do (or don't do)

What exactly this proves?

 

[Episkopos]

There is nothing good unless God declares it is so. Judging from ourselves is not "good".