What Is A Birth From Above?

[0bed]

Some people construe "now is" to indicate the saints who came up out of
their graves at Mtt 27:50-53. But that won't work because where are those
saints today? They're all gone; and there's no record of them having
ascended to heaven with Christ when he departed. The resurrection about
which the Lord spoke at John 5:25 is unto life; not death, so those saints
were merely resuscitated rather than truly resurrected.

It is my own personal conviction that "now is" refers to the Lord's statement
that precedes John 5:25.

†. John 5:24 . . I assure you: those who listen to my message, and believe
in God who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for
their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

Cliff
/

Yes, you are correct Cliff and if I may say so it is nice to see someone studying the Bible like this. Jesus is talking in the present tense which includes the present day.

John 5.

24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to (eternal) life.

25 I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come (present tense) when the dead (those who are dead in treaspsses and sin, not those who are in the grave) will hear the voice of the Son of God (Jesus) and those who hear will live (eternally).

26 For as the Father has (eternal) life in himself, so he has granted the Son (who is flesh on earth like us) to have (eternal) life in himself.


Verse 28 then goes on to speak of the first and second ressurection. :)

28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

 

[veteran]

My understanding is that Revelation 20:5 is about the first ressurection (it says so) and in my opinion it complements John 5:28-29 by adding the detail that the wicked will not be raised until the end of Christs' peaceful 1000 year reign on earth. This indicates two resurections.

There's no way to force separate timings in the John 5:28-29 Scripture between the "resurrection of life" and "resurrection of damnation."

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
(KJV)

Even per the Greek, that "hour" is Greek 'hora', which means a specific hour of time. It's impossible to create a separate time there between the two types of resurrection. That event of "His voice" is the 'shout' of 1 Thess.4:16-17, which is about the time of Christ's second coming.

The fact that John 5:29 speaks of "those who have done good things" and "those who have done wicked things" indicates that Jesus has already made judgement and John 5:22 tells us Jesus is the judge both in the first ressurection and the second ressurection which are seperated by Christs 1000 year reign on earth so that peace may prevail.

The John 5:28-29 Scripture is simple. And we know from other Scripture that the wicked are not cast into the lake of fire until the end of Christ's thousand years reign, which is when God's Great White Throne Judgment occurs. So the unjust being raised to the "resurrection of damnation" type does not mean automatic destruction right then; it only means their being assigned ... the "second death", for the "second death" does not occur until when? Not until the thousand years is over (Rev.20).


Is there another Bible witness to this? Yes!

Rev 20:7-9
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
(KJV)

God's Great White Throne Judgment doesn't occur until AFTER... Satan has done that. So how is it those "nations" there already exist for Satan to tempt prior to the time of God's final Judgment? And I thought per you all's view that the second resurrection idea is about the "dead" being raised FOR God's Great White Throne Judgment time period, and then assigned to the "lake of fire"?

So how is it those "nations" there already exist "in the four corners of the earth" prior to God's Judgment time? Simple, it's because those are the "resurrection of damnation" that are raised at that "hour" of John 5 when Jesus' second coming happens.


Here's another Bible witness to the "resurrection of damnation" being present to go through Christ's thousand years reign...

Rev 22:14-15
14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
(KJV)

Those blessed in that time will have right to the "tree of life", and may enter through the gates into the city. What city? The Holy City, the "beloved city" of Rev.20:9.

And notice just who is right outside... those gates of that holy city. The wicked. And they are there at time when the "tree of life" is manifested on earth. Ezekiel 44 through 47 is the parallel Scripture in the OT about this event.


Another Scripture witness:

In Zechariah 14 we're given the events of Christ's return to the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem. The following Zech.14 part is for after Christ's return...

Zech 14:16-19
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
(KJV)

Not only are the 'unjust' of the nations going to be required to worship Christ in that future Millennium time, but they will have no rain on their lands if they refuse to come up to Jerusalem from year to year to keep the feast of tabernacles and worship Him. That's what the bowing the knee and all confessing that Christ is Lord in that time is about. It's what Apostle Paul was referring to in Rom.14:11-12. It's what the "synagogue of Satan" coming to worship at the feet of Christ's elect in that time is about too (Rev.3:9).

 

[Webers_Home]

.
It's been my experience that quite a few Bible students are unaware that the
resurrection of the just consists of two components, and the resurrection of
the damned consists of only one; viz: the just are resurrected both internally
and externally, while the damned are resurrected only externally.

In other words; it's possible to undergo an internal resurrection now, in this
life, prior to passing on because the internal resurrection has no effect
one's physical body; but rather involves one's spirit via a birth from above
as per John 3:3-8 and John 5:24.

Cliff
/

 

[0bed]

A LOOK AT REVELATION CHAPTER 20. AGREEMENT WITH VETERAN.

SATAN BOUND FOR A THOUSAND YEARS
And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


THE FIRST RESSURECTION, THE SAINTS ARE EXALTED
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


SATAN IS LOOSED, HE AND HIS MINIONS ARE DEFEATEATED (V9 AND V10)
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


THE SECOND RESSURECTION (John 5:29 "those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.")
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


CHAPTER 21 THE NEW JERUSALEM

 

[veteran]

A LOOK AT REVELATION CHAPTER 20. AGREEMENT WITH VETERAN.

SATAN BOUND FOR A THOUSAND YEARS
And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


THE FIRST RESSURECTION, THE SAINTS ARE EXALTED
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


SATAN IS LOOSED, HE AND HIS MINIONS ARE DEFEATEATED (V9 AND V10)
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Everything above follows the Scripture exactly, until you get to this point.


[quote]THE SECOND RESSURECTION (John 5:29 "those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.")
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

CHAPTER 21 THE NEW JERUSALEM
[/quote]


Here's the order:

1. Christ's coming:
a. "resurrection of life" ("first resurrection" = Christ's elect saints)
b. "resurrection of damnation" (goats separated on the left hand - Matt.25)
c. Satan locked in his pit prison

2. The thousand years:
a. "first resurrection" = Christ's saints INSIDE the gates of the holy city on earth, reigning with Christ
b. "resurrection of damnation" = 'goats' outside the gates of the beloved city, resurrected, but in a place of separation, and bowing the knee. These are the "dead" of Rev.20:5, and the Scripture sense is about spiritual death, not 'dead in the ground', not still waiting to be resurrected. These are the "nations" in the four corners of the earth, having been resurrected for Christ's thousand years reign. These are who Christ and His saints will rule over for that thousand years.

3. End of the thousand years
a. Satan loosed from his pit prison to go tempt those nations of the "dead"
b. Satan leads the deceived of those nations on earth to go against the "camp of the saints" and "beloved city"
c. God rains a fire down from Heaven which destroys those
e. Some of the nations will have chosen to follow Christ Jesus, and will not be deceived by that final tempting by Satan

4. God's Judgment, the books are opened
a. All the "dead" of the "resurrection of damnation" stand before God's throne in judgment, and they are still... called "the dead" while standing before God's throne.
b. They are judged out of the books
c. Only those of the "dead" whose names are NOT found in the Book of Life are cast into the lake of fire
d. Those of the "dead" whose names ARE found in the Book of Life are changed... from the "resurrection of damnation" to the "resurrection of life". THIS is the actual second resurrection, and it's one unto ETERNAL LIFE, not death.

 

[0bed]

Here's the order:

1. Christ's coming:
a. "resurrection of life" ("first resurrection" = Christ's elect saints)
b. "resurrection of damnation" (goats separated on the left hand - Matt.25)
c. Satan locked in his pit prison

2. The thousand years:
a. "first resurrection" = Christ's saints INSIDE the gates of the holy city on earth, reigning with Christ
b. "resurrection of damnation" = 'goats' outside the gates of the beloved city, resurrected, but in a place of separation, and bowing the knee. These are the "dead" of Rev.20:5, and the Scripture sense is about spiritual death, not 'dead in the ground', not still waiting to be resurrected. These are the "nations" in the four corners of the earth, having been resurrected for Christ's thousand years reign. These are who Christ and His saints will rule over for that thousand years.

3. End of the thousand years
a. Satan loosed from his pit prison to go tempt those nations of the "dead"
b. Satan leads the deceived of those nations on earth to go against the "camp of the saints" and "beloved city"
c. God rains a fire down from Heaven which destroys those
e. Some of the nations will have chosen to follow Christ Jesus, and will not be deceived by that final tempting by Satan

4. God's Judgment, the books are opened
a. All the "dead" of the "resurrection of damnation" stand before God's throne in judgment, and they are still... called "the dead" while standing before God's throne.
b. They are judged out of the books
c. Only those of the "dead" whose names are NOT found in the Book of Life are cast into the lake of fire
d. Those of the "dead" whose names ARE found in the Book of Life are changed... from the "resurrection of damnation" to the "resurrection of life". THIS is the actual second resurrection, and it's one unto ETERNAL LIFE, not death.

Got you.

The Rapture.

 

[veteran]

Got you.

The Rapture.

Nope.

 

[JLB]

1) What is the water?

It's supernatural-- and it's for drinking.

†. John 4:10 . . Jesus answered and said to her: If you knew the gift of God,
and who is saying to you "Give me a drink" you would have asked him and
he would have given you living water.

†. John 4:14 . .Whoever drinks the water I shall give will never thirst; the
water I shall give will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal
life.

†. Rev 22:17 . .The Spirit and the bride say come! Let the hearer say come!
Let the one who thirsts come forward, and the one who wants it receive the
gift of life-giving water.


2) If people are born of water and the Spirit when they undergo a
birth from above; then of what were they born to begin with?

The earth.

†. Gen 2:7 . .The Lord God formed man out of the clay of the ground and
blew into his nostrils the breath of life, and so man became a living being.


3) Do the words "no one" include Christ?

Do the math-- Christ was fully human: a man of flesh, bone, and blood.

†. Luke 24:39 . . Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me
and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.

†. 1 John 4:2-3 . . By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that
confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit
that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God.
And this is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard was coming,
and is now already in the world.

†. 1Cor 15:50 . .This I declare, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the
kingdom of God

Cliff
/

The water in John 3:5 is natural water that each human is encased in our mothers womb. It is life giving. It is natural.

5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Born of water = Born of flesh

Born of Spirit = Born of spirit.

Simple!

Why would you think that you can just jump over to John 4:10 and think it is the same discussion.


1 John 5:6

6 This is He who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.

He who came by water and blood!

Same thing here Natural child birth - came by water.

No spiritual metaphor here, same exact language, same meaning. Natural Child Birth!

Simple!


JLB

 

[Webers_Home]

.
FAQ : If born-again Christians are regenerated with eternal life; then why do they still die?

They die because they don't have immortality yet.

Jesus had eternal life.

†. John 5:26 . . For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the
Son to have life in himself.

But he didn't obtain immortality until his resurrection

†. Rom 6:9 . . For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he
cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him.

Born-again Christians expect to be immortal in their own resurrections.

†. 1Cor 15:51-54 . . Behold, I show you a mystery: we shall not all sleep,
but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the
last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised
incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on
incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this
corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on
immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: Death
is swallowed up in victory.

FAQ : Well; if eternal life isn't immortality; then what is it?

Scientists have been trying to create life for as long as I can remember; and
they will never succeed because they think all that's needed to is a
combination of the right ingredients; for example: amino acids, water,
carbon, and protein. However, life isn't physical; it's metaphysical: which can
be defined as a reality beyond what is perceptible to the senses; viz: life is
supernatural.

Adam was a combination of the right ingredients when God created him; but
the first man lay there a corpse until God made him a sentient being by
means of a mysterious force called the breath of life. That breath isn't
something you can produce in a laboratory. In other words: to bring
something to life, you need a source of life to do it because life isn't
spontaneous; viz: it takes life to produce life; which is something we could
legitimately, and sensibly label: the God factor.

When God created Adam, he came into being with human life; which is a
kind of life that produces human nature; viz: human life is what makes it
possible for humans to act, think, and feel like people. God's life is eternal
life; which is a kind of life that produces a divine nature; viz: that which
makes God act, think, and feel like Himself. The simplest way I can define
eternal life's role in the process of regeneration, is that by transferring His
kind of life to humans; God makes it possible for them to act, think, and feel
no longer like people, but to act, think, and feel like Himself.

†. 2Pet 1:2-4 . . Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the
knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. His divine power has given us
everything we need for life and God-likeness through our knowledge of Him
who called us by His own glory and goodness. Through these He has given
us His very great and precious promises, so that through them you may
participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world
caused by evil desires.

I've actually been accused of blasphemy for believing the above-- by
Christians no less --because my depiction of regeneration appears to
produce gods; but it doesn't produce gods, nor is it intended to produce
gods-- it produces humans with God-likeness. They're still human, and
they're still creatures; just more in their creator's image than ever before.

Cliff
/

 

[logabe]

Re: John 3:5 . . Jesus replied: the truth is; no one can enter the kingdom of
God without being born of water and the Spirit.

1) What is the water?

2) If people are born of water and the Spirit when they undergo a birth from
above; then of what were they born to begin with?

3) Do the words "no one" include Christ?

Cliff

/

Being born of the water is the great commission that Jesus commanded
us to do when we went into "ALL NATIONS". Mathew 28:19-20 says,

19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the
nations, baptizing them in the name of the
Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I
commanded you; and lo, I am with you always ,
even to the end of the age."

Did the disciples obey what God told them to do? Yes they did. Every
where they went in the book of Acts, they baptised in water for the
remission of sins. Acts 2:38, Acts 8:16, Acts 8:36-37, Acts 10:47-48,
Acts 16:33, Acts 19:3-5, and Acts 22:16.

All of these scriptures represent a person being born of the water. The
disciples were fulfilling what Jesus had commanded them to do. They
understood that baptism in the name of Jesus was for the remission of
their sins. In essence, they had a fresh start through obeying the words
of Jesus (Acts 2:41).

When you gladly receive the word of the Lord, you will go get baptised
in His name. But if you don't gladly receive it, you probably want. Most
Christians will justify their actions by saying I'm already saved and I
don't need to obey that command. Well, that person needs to refer back
to John 3:5, and ask God to give him a revelation of all of the scriptures
above to see if it makes sense to change his mind. I know a person has
to get a revelation to act upon a command from the Lord, but I also know
they are being confused by leaders that keeps them from hearing the word.

Remember... you died with Him and you are buried with Him in baptism
(Colossians 2:12), but don't forget, you are risen with Him... your sins have
been remitted and you have a new beginning. Born of the water... you have
a clean slate.

What a God! What a Plan!


Logabe

 

[IanLC]

I believe that being born from above happens at the point you accept Jesus Christ and you are sealed with the Holy Ghost. From there you grow in grace. Water baptism is a show of obedience and that you have publically confessed your faith. Baptism of the Holy Ghost gives you power to EFFECTIVELY witness. Tongues may come or may not its according to what you believe and it shall be given accordingly.

 

[Mungo]

I believe that being born from above happens at the point you accept Jesus Christ and you are sealed with the Holy Ghost. From there you grow in grace. Water baptism is a show of obedience and that you have publically confessed your faith. Baptism of the Holy Ghost gives you power to EFFECTIVELY witness. Tongues may come or may not its according to what you believe and it shall be given accordingly.

Do you have any scripture to back up those beliefs?

Jesus said:
The one who believes and is baptized will be saved; (Mk 16;16)

Peter said:
This prefigured baptism, which saves you now (1Pet 3:20-21)

Scripture says that baptism is salvific.

 

[IanLC]

Exactly I agree with your statements.