What Is Free Will?

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ScottA

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How did YOU make ANY decisions before the foundation of the world, and what is your biblical support for it? Don't tell me I think the truth is hogwash until you back up your "truth" with Scripture.
First of all...these are your terms, you called "hogwash" without scripture.

But, hey, okay I forgive you.

The simple answer...since I am on my phone and not able to give chapter and verse, nonetheless I will quote...is: just as Christ was not born into the world until the time appointed but was before the foundation of the world, we whom are His body and in Him, were also, for He was never without a body--but as in the creation and as it was with the first Adam, he had a body and his bride was taken out of him. Which things are only now made manifest just as Christ was only made manifest afterwards, after He was before the foundation of the world.
 

Ronald Nolette

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One of the classic arguments against election and predestination is the argument that we have free will and we all have the opportunity to come to God. But is that really true? This depends. It depends on what you mean by free will. Let’s look at what the Bible says about who will seek God.

First, let’s talk about free will. What is it? If by free will you mean every man is free to choose what he desires then, yes, I agree, there is free will. But if you mean that we have an equal choice with no influence or determiners then no, we do not have free will.

Does this align with Scripture? Yes. The proponents of free will, the humanistic definition of free will, suggest that people come to Christ on their own free will. They make this choice all by themselves. The problem is, Scripture says otherwise. Romans 3 clearly tells us that nobody seeks God.

Who Seeks God?

Technically I make a distinction between will and volition.

volition is the ability all people have to make choices concerning this life, like what to eat, wear, marry etc.

Will has to do with the capability to obey or disobey God. Allmen are born without free will and are enslaved to sin. The bible is clear that the natural man cannot please God and the natural man does not even understand the things of God. Natural man cannot have a relationship with god, until God revives their dead spirit.
 
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reformed1689

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First of all...these are your terms, you called "hogwash" without scripture.

But, hey, okay I forgive you.

The simple answer...since I am on my phone and not able to give chapter and verse, nonetheless I will quote...is: just as Christ was not born into the world until the time appointed but was before the foundation of the world, we whom are His body and in Him, were also, for He was never without a body--but as in the creation and as it was with the first Adam, he had a body and his bride was taken out of him. Which things are only now made manifest just as Christ was only made manifest afterwards, after He was before the foundation of the world.
Yeah there is no Scripture for this nonsense. You did nothing before you were born.
 

reformed1689

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It should be obvious why God gave man free will. Not only did He do that for man, but He did it for the angels also, including Satan. Without free will, we are only robots, and not able to show true love.

Ezekiel 28 reveals, by parable, that God originally created Satan perfect as a covering cherub (to guard His throne), and then Satan coveted God's Throne and rebelled. Now Satan could not have done that if God had made him like He did the 'zoon' (the four beasts surrounding God's Throne to guard it, per Revelation 4). Thus even Satan was given free will to follow and worship God originally, or not. Same with one third of the angels that rebelled with Satan.

For this present world time, God set bounds upon man, to see who he would follow. Some He made with His Spiritual Image likeness (Holy Spirit), and some He made as vessels of destruction. But that is only for this present world. It does not mean the wicked and deceived cannot convert to Jesus in the future during Christ's "thousand years" reign with His elect. And even then, once The Father and Son are revealed to all peoples at His return, there will still be some that if they cannot be their own god, then they themselves will choose to perish. That is the spirit of rebellion which Satan caused in the beginning.
Notice I did not say God did not give us free will. But our free will is in bondage to our sin nature. Nobody chooses God, or do you deny that Scripture?
 

reformed1689

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2 Corinthians 5:18-20 KJV
18) And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19) To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20) Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Romans 5:10-11 KJV
10) For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11) And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Much love!
And since when does world = individuals? And Romans was written to Christians, those who have already been reconciled.
 

reformed1689

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Not "all by themselves". When the Gospel is preached (or read) the Holy Spirit is right there to (a) convict the sinner of his guilt and (b) convince the sinner that Christ is the only Savior who can save him from Hell and from himself. This is one of the ministries of the Holy Spirit. At the same time the Word of God is a living Word with supernatural power granted by the Holy Spirit (Heb 4:12,13). And Peter calls the Gospel (the Word of God) the "incorruptible seed" of the New Birth (1 Pet 1:23-25). Paul says that faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God (the Gospel) (Rom 10:17). So in fact there is tremendous influence on the sinner's heart and mind when the Gospel is preached. And that is how people come to the Savior.

Of course all human beings have free will therefore some will obey the Gospel and some will disobey it. Therefore Paul says of unbelieving Jews "but they have not all obeyed the Gospel" (Rom 10:16). And Jesus said what would happen when the Gospel is preached (Mark 16:15,16). Some would believe and others would not.
God draws the ones he chooses to save.
 

marks

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And since when does world = individuals? And Romans was written to Christians, those who have already been reconciled.
2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world (kosmon) unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Are you familiar with the word "kosmo", appearing here as "kosmon"? You are correct that it does not mean "individuals". Do you know it's meaning?

Paul wrote to the Corinthian church that God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself. Is it your thinking that this only applied to the Corinthian Christians? Or was Paul making a more broad statement?

John 1:29 KJV
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world (kosmou).

Matthew 4:8 KJV
8) Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world (kosmou), and the glory of them;

Luke 19:10 KJV
For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

This is Jesus' statement of purpose. "That which was lost." To whom does that apply? To those who were lost.

Titus 2:11-15 KJV
11) For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12) Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13) Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14) Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
15) These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

"To all men" This is inclusive language.

Colossians 2:6-7 KJV
6) As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
7) Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

Romans 5:10-11 KJV
10) For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11) And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the reconciliation.

My point in posting this passage is to show how it portrays that we are both reconciled to God while being enemies of God, and that we now have "received" the reconciliation. "Received" is in the Active Voice, that is, something we do.

Much love!
 
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reformed1689

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I did already, and if you knew the scriptures you would know that.

So, no, in light of your continued name calling, I will not. Not for you.
I did already, and if you knew the scriptures you would know that.

So, no, in light of your continued name calling, I will not. Not for you.
Lies Scott. I'm not going to let your dishonesty go without being called out. I went back through our exchange and no, you did not, give any Scripture references at all. You gave some commentary about some Scripture, without citing the reference, but that is all.
 

APAK

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One of the classic arguments against election and predestination is the argument that we have free will and we all have the opportunity to come to God. But is that really true? This depends. It depends on what you mean by free will. Let’s look at what the Bible says about who will seek God.

First, let’s talk about free will. What is it? If by free will you mean every man is free to choose what he desires then, yes, I agree, there is free will. But if you mean that we have an equal choice with no influence or determiners then no, we do not have free will.

Does this align with Scripture? Yes. The proponents of free will, the humanistic definition of free will, suggest that people come to Christ on their own free will. They make this choice all by themselves. The problem is, Scripture says otherwise. Romans 3 clearly tells us that nobody seeks God.

Who Seeks God?
Once and for all folks need to be honest with themselves and face reality and acknowledge that true free will is a myth, it does not exist for a human being. Our weak human nature limits our freedom to control and manage our will to act: when, where, how and even why, when emotions and strong feelings take hold. Yes, we act ultimately on our own indeed, although under a cloud of a slew of limitations and fog that we generally do not realize surrounds us and our impulse to act. We act on a type of and level of belief and faith in the end, even for not spiritual or biblical reasons in life.

From a biblical perspective, and even a purely psychological view, free will is based on answering two questions. Have we the ability to make our own choices and determine our own fate? And is it really a person’s will free, or are people's lives in fact shaped by powers outside of their control?

Can we at least compromise and be very realistic and say, that in free will, choices are always partly shaped by forces outside of one's control. And therefore there is no true FREE and pure OPEN will to do anything. Anything is impossible for a human being. And this 'anything' of course has limitations and are set by our real capacity and power to think, create and then truly execute this will 'freely.'

There are physical limitations caused by our physical dispositions such as physical genes and the physical environment.

There are spiritual limitations from scriptural dispositions such as our 'spiritual' genes or DNA that is governed by our birth, our spiritual environment, both by Holy Spirit and the evil spirits in the world and in our lives, even before and after one is converted!

These all influence our will, drive from the center of our spirit being or heart, to act, think, believe, have faith and make minor to major decisions whether we are fully aware of all of them or not.

And when we do act with our will, we are naturally biased to do evil, absent of the Spirit within a converted person. The Holy Spirit acts as an anchor and major influence to do good and produce fruit that is pleasing to our Father in heaven.
 
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Randy Kluth

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One of the classic arguments against election and predestination is the argument that we have free will and we all have the opportunity to come to God. But is that really true? This depends. It depends on what you mean by free will. Let’s look at what the Bible says about who will seek God.

First, let’s talk about free will. What is it? If by free will you mean every man is free to choose what he desires then, yes, I agree, there is free will. But if you mean that we have an equal choice with no influence or determiners then no, we do not have free will.

Does this align with Scripture? Yes. The proponents of free will, the humanistic definition of free will, suggest that people come to Christ on their own free will. They make this choice all by themselves. The problem is, Scripture says otherwise. Romans 3 clearly tells us that nobody seeks God.

Who Seeks God?

Yea, it's sort of a language problem. You just expressed it very well from the pov of the old Lutheran/Reformed position. Luther's "Bondage of the Will" made that very argument, that the Human Will is not free to pursue the things of God apart from the grace of Christ.

Some would argue that God's grace, through Christ, has been extended to all, thus making no distinction between the freedom of the believer and the freedom of the unbeliever. But I think we can all agree that apart from belief in Christ as the Son of God, there can be no production of the works of salvation. And by that I don't mean works that obtain salvation, but rather, works that are produced *after* salvation.

I also am a Predestinarian, but I also believe in Free Will for all. All can choose Christ and for his salvation. But not all will because only some have been chosen as God's elect, including those God originally planned for and those who are willing to choose for Christ. God knows who they are. But people will make their choice, indicating who they are.
 

Davy

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Notice I did not say God did not give us free will. But our free will is in bondage to our sin nature. Nobody chooses God, or do you deny that Scripture?

Relying on corrupt modern Bible versions I see. There's no such thing as a "sin nature". That is a modern corrupt translation from different Greek New Testament manuscripts which the KJV translators did not use. Apostle compared our flesh being what causes most of our sins, and the "sin nature" philosophy tries to leave Paul's teaching.

You are falsely dwelling on the idea that none can be righteous, when the very fact is per Genesis that Abraham believed God, and God counted Abraham's Faith as righteousness!

You can find passages in the Psalms 14 that claim also there is none that follow God, but those are about the 'fool'.

Thus you have created a leaven doctrine from men 'using' (actually abusing) God's Word, and the basis of your proposed doctrines on this thread are from that fallacy. And it's because you fail to distinguish the difference between the flesh, which cannot follow God, and our spirit, which desires to follow God (per Romans 7).
 

Ernest T. Bass

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free will is the ability to choose between 2 or more options, choose between serving sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness, (Romans 6:16) choose between serving God or mammon, (Matthew 6:24), choose to believe or not (Exodus 4:1-9), choose to do the will of God or not (John 7:17), choose to obey or not (John 3:36).

if man were innately born with a totally depraved nature where he has no choice but can only do evil/sin/unrighteousness, then man has no free will and God is culpable for all the wrong totally depraved man commits and is unjust in condemning such innately depraved men.

Does John 6:37 Teach Calvinist “Predestination”?
By Wayne Jackson

“Please explain John 6:37.Who are those ‘given’ to Christ?Does this mean that they were selected by God before the foundation of the world, and are ‘elected’ — irrespective of their personal obedience?”

The passage under consideration reads as follows:

All of those whom the Father gives me shall come unto me; and him who comes to me I will in no wise cast out.”

First, the Bible student needs to remind himself of this premise.The Scriptures are the inspired word of God (1 Thes. 2:13; 2 Tim. 3:16-17).Coming, then, from Jehovah as the ultimate source, they do not contradict themselves; instead, they are perfectly harmonious (Dt. 32:4; 1 Cor. 14:33a).When one encounters a passage, therefore, that may appear to conflict with plain-spoken texts contained elsewhere in Scripture, he must look carefully at the more obscure text and determine if there is a reasonable way to bring it into harmony with the other.

Having said that, let us further emphasize this point. No sacred text must be viewed in any way that would negate the following fundamental truths.

(1) Man has been granted free will (Mt. 23:37b; Jn. 5:39; 7:17; Rev. 22:17).

(2) His salvation is dependent upon his personal acceptance of divine grace, in obedience to the requirements of the gospel of Christ (2 Thes. 1:7-9; Heb. 5:8-9; 1 Pet. 4:17).

To suggest that God, before the world’s foundation, chose certain ones to be saved, and others to be lost, independent of a personal reception of truth, is a doctrine that cannot be sustained by the Scriptures — regardless of the number of sincere people who subscribe to it.

There are several crucial questions that must be addressed in connection with John 6:37. When did the “giving” of certain people to the Son take place? In what sense does the Father “give” these people to his Son? What relationship does the “giving” bear to their “coming” to him? And, what is the significance of the promise, “I will in no wise cast out”?

Let us take each of these in order.

(3) When did the “giving” take place? The idea that believers were unconditionally “given” to Christ, in the eternal counsel of God before the foundation of the world, is negated by this very passage. The verb “gives” (didosin) is a present tense form, indicating action in progress; the Father, at that very time, was in the process of giving certain ones to his Son. This passage cannot possibly be employed, then, to establish a “done-deal” gift back in pre-world eternity. As Reynolds noted, “‘The giving’ implies a present activity of grace, not a foregone conclusion” (17, p. 201).

(4) In what sense did God “give” people to his Son? The terms “gift” and “given” are frequently employed idiomatically in the Scriptures to denote divine favor as expressed in Heaven’s redemptive work on man’s behalf — without there being any inclination of an “unconditional election.”

For example, David prophesied that Jehovah would “give” the “nations” (Gentiles) to Christ as an inheritance (Psa. 2:8; cf. Acts 4:25-26). Surely no one will contend that all Gentiles were unconditionally predestined to salvation irrespective of their response to divine truth. Even the most cursory examination of the book of Acts, from chapter 10 onward, reveals that the Gentiles were admitted into redemptive favor by yielding to the requirements of the gospel. Salvation was not as a consequence of an eternal decree independent of human obedience (cf. Acts 10:34-35,43; 11:14; 15:8-9; 1 Pet. 1:22-23).

(5) What relationship is there between the “giving” and the “coming” in John 6:37? There is a significant connection. The “giving” represents what God has provided in the great plan of human salvation; the “coming” represents the acceptation of that plan as manifested in the sinner’s obedience.

The subsequent context affords a wonderful illustration of this — with slightly different imagery, but with corresponding thought. Note the language of verses 44-45:

“No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall all be taught of God. Every one who has heard from the Father, and has learned, comes unto me
.”

In this passage, God’s “drawing” is parallel to his “giving” of verse 37. And yet, clearly in vv. 44-45 the drawing is accomplished by hearing his word, learning, and coming to the Lord. Jehovah provides the redemptive information, but humanity must access it. By a comparison of these passages, therefore, one may logically conclude that this is how men are “given” to Christ as well. As Bloomfield once observed, “The term [gives] therefore (here and at ver. 39 and 65) must signify something compatible with the free agency of man” (I, p. 363).

When former Baptist minister Robert Shank issued his book, Life in the Son, it produced shock waves among Calvinists. Professor William Adams of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary characterized the book as “one of the most arresting and disturbing books” he had ever read (p. xiii). In this instructive volume, Shank has a special Appendix, “Whom Does the Father Give to Jesus?” in which he discusses this very passage. Therein the author fires this parting blast:

“There is nothing about God’s gift of believers to be the heritage of the Son who died for them which somehow transforms the Gospel’s ‘whosoever will’ into a ‘whosoever must’ and a ‘most of you shan’t.‘ There is nothing about it which binds men in the strait jacket of an antecedent decree of positive unconditional election and reprobation, while insisting that they are ’free’” (p. 339).

(6) Our final question is this: “What is the meaning of the affirmation, ‘I will in no wise cast out’?” Some allege it suggests the dogma of the impossibility of apostasy, i.e., that no one “given” to Christ in the eternal scheme of things could ever be lost. The child of God, therefore, can never fall from grace — or so it is claimed.

The passage does not even remotely suggest this pernicious doctrine. Even Albert Barnes, who subscribed to the Calvinistic doctrine of the impossibility of apostasy (see his comment at Matthew 7:23), conceded the following, with reference to John 6:37b. “This expression does not refer to the doctrine of perseverance of the saints, but to the fact that Jesus will not reject or refuse any sinner who comes to him” (pp. 246-247).

This admission, combined with the scriptural declarations that God wants all men to be saved (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9), and that “whosoever will” may come to Christ, are death blows to the theory that some were chosen by God for salvation, and others for damnation, before the world began.Perhaps no dogma has ever been so misguided.

Works Cited
Barnes, Albert (1954), “Luke — John,” Notes on the New Testament (Grand Rapids: Baker).
Bloomfield, S.T. (1837), The Greek Testament with English Notes (Boston: Perkins & Marvin).
Reynolds. H.R. (1950), “The Gospel of John,” The Pulpit Commentary, H.D.M. Spence, Joseph Exell, Eds. (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans).
Shank, Robert (1961), Life in the Son (Springfield, MO: Westcott).

Does John 6:37 Teach Calvinist "Predestination"?
 
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