WHAT IS REPENTANCE?

[Behold]

You said....”If God declared you righteous because of your behavior, then Jesus died for nothing, on The Cross.”

It was you who first posted that "God declared"

So, i was quoting you, to correct your statement.

I never use the word "declared" when im teaching God's Righteousness. I always teach it as "made righteous", having become "The righteousness of God in Christ".

What do you notice about John B’s words there? Obedience to the words of God’s son is required for the gift of life..

Following Jesus only and or keeping His words.. only makes you a disciple.

Believeing in Jesus, so that your "faith is counted by God as (Christ's imputed righteousess)" for you......is Salvation.

Followers of Jesus, who are not born again, are disciples......nothing more.
Hell is filled with water baptized hyper religious followers of Jesus, who were never born again.

If you “believe”.....you must “obey” the teachings of God’s son....there is no excuse not to.

God's salvation is a Free Gift.

"Abraham BELIEVED GOD", and it was counted to Him as RIGHTEOUSNESS.

He had not committed any works YET........all he had done, was given what God required........ = His FAITH., and God counted Him Righteous.
Paul teaches that Abrahams is the "father of our faith".....not the father of our obedience or works.

Christians are become Children of God by FAITH.......not by works.

Its (God's) = "GRACE through faith, without works or deeds of the Law".

Yes, but it ends in eternal death...not in some place of eternal conscious punishment....what purpose would that serve?

What purpose does Hell serve?
It serves as the initial destination for someone who was not born again, who has died "in their sins".. as a John 3:36.
There is no way back, and there is no 2nd chance in Hell., as this one has entered "2nd death".

There are no Christians in Hell, and there are no Christ rejectors, never born again, in Heaven.
Heaven, is an eternal destination, and Hell is the Same.

God tolerated “times of ignorance” in human history, but since the arrival of his Messiah, there is no longer an excuse for ignorance, because now it is an ignorance of choice.

God gives us all free will, and we are accountably for how we use it.
Each of use is accountable for coming to Christ for forgiveness and Salvation, or not.

(Rom 9:27) but gentiles were then added as God’s promise to Abraham included them too. (Gen 22:18)

The Cross of Christ birthed the New Testament Church., and entered "the time of the Gentiles".
Paul is the only "Apostle to the Gentiles" and His doctrine is THE doctrine for the church, that consists mostly of GENTILES.
Paul's Gospel, in the "time of the gentiles" is THE Gospel.

Paul's Gospel is "we preach Christ Crucified".........

Paul's Gospel is "Justification BY Faith".

But now we see another time of ignorance that God tolerated in that he allowed the devil to sow “weeds” of false Christianity,

Your particular JW cult is one of the worst false "weeds" the Devil has ever created.

 

[PS95]

God does not save us, but like Noah, he teaches us through obedience, how to save ourselves by following his instructions.

Hello Jane.
As I was reading, I was at first not surprised by the classic JW word games that make it sound as if you teach that Jesus paid for our sins. You know you don't teach that. JWs teach that your physical death is how you pay for your own sins.-
You know that God does not demand 2 payments, right? So i have been told by JWs..
You also know that you teach one man = "one man ransom" so it is not even remotely possible in your belief system that your Jesus "could" die for all of OUR sins.
So, Please stop using smooth words that deceive. If your religion is "the truth" why muddle it? Just tell it like it is if you are in the only religion on earth that God approves..

And then this statement below!!!?!!-- this is terribly sad. It just shows Jane, that you have no understanding of God's gift of salvation to us at all.
This is earning salvation- period. It is impossible. . No. First you accept God's gift of salvation and are gifted with His spirit through whom we have a changed heart & mind and life and joyfully want to obey Him. None of that is of ourselves- but it is all of God who lives in us! God is indeed our salvation. He has definitely become my salvation. Please pray about this Jane. This is a deadly statement.

Aunty Jane said - God does not save us, but like Noah, he teaches us through obedience, how to save ourselves by following his instructions.

. Our salvation is not of ourselves. Yes, God DOES save us.

Make haste to help me,
O Lord, my salvation! Ps 38:2

Blessed be the Lord, who daily bears our burden,
The God who is our salvation. Selah. Ps 68:19


By awesome deeds You answer us in righteousness, O God of our salvation,
You who are the trust of all the ends of the earth and of the farthest sea; Ps 65:5

Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of Your name;
And deliver us and forgive our sins for Your name’s sake. Ps 79:9


Restore us, O God of our salvation,
And cause Your indignation toward us to cease. Ps 85:4

Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
For You are the God of my salvation;
For You I wait all the day. Ps 25:5

Do not hide Your face from me,
Do not turn Your servant away in anger;
You have been my help;
Do not abandon me nor forsake me,
O God of my salvation! Ps 27:9

O Lord, the God of my salvation,
I have cried out by day and in the night before You. Ps 88:1

“He will cry to Me, ‘You are my Father,
My God, and the rock of my salvation.’ Ps 89:26

O come, let us sing for joy to the Lord,
Let us shout joyfully to the rock of our salvation. Ps 95:1

He only is my rock and my salvation,
My stronghold; I shall not be greatly shaken. Ps 62:2

He only is my rock and my salvation,
My stronghold; I shall not be shaken. Ps 62:6

But as for me, I will watch expectantly for the Lord;
I will wait for the God of my salvation.
My God will hear me. Micah 7:7

The Lord is my light and my salvation;
Whom shall I fear?
The Lord is the defense of my life;
Whom shall I dread? Ps 27:1

The LORD is my strength and my song, and He has become my salvation. Ps 118:14

“I, even I, am the Lord,
And there is no savior besides Me. Isa 43:11

Is it not I, the Lord?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A righteous God and a Savior;
There is none except Me.
“Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other. Isa 45:21-22

“Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.” – Acts 4:12


“He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.” – Titus 3:5


“And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.” – 1 John 4:14


“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.” – Ephesians 2:8-9

“God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” – 2 Corinthians 5:21



I think that should suffice- there are many more. Yes of course God saves us.--


I do not agree with Behold that our behavior does not matter after we receive the gracious gift of salvation.
It is utterly ridiculous to say that a saved person's behavior does not matter. But even that changed behavior & heart is only us cooperating with the Spirit's power in us. We can do NOTHING of ourselves.

 

[Behold]

I do not agree with Behold that our behavior does not matter after we receive the gracious gift of salvation.

Stop lying.

Ive never posted or taught that "our behavior does not matter" after we are born again, as Paul Himself tells us in this verse i will post below..whould be our behavior. And it does matter.......regarding our discipleship,....... which ive explained to you 10X at least, and you still can't understand what im showing you.

Paul says of our our Behavior as a Christian.. = "Present your body as a living sacrifice to God"...

However....
That is not your SALVATION.,that is your behavior that is your Discipleship that you produce AFTER you have been Given Salvation as a SINNER.

See, you are typical of a deceived Legalist, who has not yet understood that Salvation is all of God through Christ, and we dont DO THAT by Behavior, little one.....we RECEIVE by FAITH what Christ has Accomplished on The Cross = that is our Salvation.
Jesus is Salvation.......not our BEHAVIOR.

Now, once you have received God's Gift of eternal Salvaiton....then your Discipleship has started....and NOW you are to present your LIFE to God ... and "finish your course".....= as that is your Discipleship, that is your Behavior.

 

[PS95]

Stop lying.

Ive never posted or taught that "our behavior does not matter" after we are born again, as Paul Himself tells us in this verse i will post below..whould be our behavior. And it does matter.......regarding our discipleship,....... which ive explained to you 10X at least, and you still can't understand what im showing you.

Paul says of our our Behavior as a Christian.. = "Present your body as a living sacrifice to God"...

However....
That is not your SALVATION.,that is your behavior that is your Discipleship that you produce AFTER you have been Given Salvation as a SINNER.

See, you are typical of a deceived Legalist, who has not yet understood that Salvation is all of God through Christ, and we dont DO THAT by Behavior, little one.....we RECEIVE by FAITH what Christ has Accomplished on The Cross = that is our Salvation.
Jesus is Salvation.......not our BEHAVIOR.

Now, once you have received God's Gift of eternal Salvaiton....then your Discipleship has started....and NOW you are to present your LIFE to God ... and "finish your course".....= as that is your Discipleship, that is your Behavior.

I have tried many times with you. Your mouth is extremely rude to pretty much everyone. You call obedience to the Lord trying to keep yourself saved. You have no clue what you are talking about, frankly.
No one who only accepts Paul's gospel and says Jesus and the apostles taught a different one can be reasoned with. I have tried.
You have ignored ALL of what I say- as usual
go here and read what I keep telling you-- and stop your nonsense.

How to Fail God : by "works".

Faith first then works. If you want to bury you talent or become a Goat that's up to you works does not save but it can get you a better blessing or reward in heaven - Jesus spoke about it in many parables .There will be those with faith who get a greater reward in heaven for the works they...

www.christianityboard.com

You exhaust me.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I never use the word "declared" when im teaching God's Righteousness. I always teach it as "made righteous", having become "The righteousness of God in Christ".

Romans 2:13 Mounce Interlinear....
“for it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.”

To be “made righteous” in sinful flesh is impossible.....to have righteousness “imputed” is to have it “declared” in lieu of the coming reality.....when sin is abolished and redeemed humanity can stand before God, sinless. Only then can we be truly righteous.

Following Jesus only and or keeping His words.. only makes you a disciple.

Believeing in Jesus, so that your "faith is counted by God as (Christ's imputed righteousess)" for you......is Salvation.

Followers of Jesus, who are not born again, are disciples......nothing more.
Hell is filled with water baptized hyper religious followers of Jesus, who were never born again.

You cannot be “born again” and still live in mortal flesh. The very act of death puts all humans in “hell” or “hades”, which according to Hebrew Scripture is “Sheol”....traslated as “the grave”.

If you are speaking of “Gehenna” also erroneously translated as “hell”, then perhaps it is time to do some homework on the meanings of the original language words.
There is no consciousness in Sheol or Gehenna. (Eccl 9:5, 10) At death one goes to either one or the other.
Death ends our present life and a resurrection is how we get back what Adam lost for us (John 5:28-29)....everlasting life in mortal flesh, as was God’s first purpose for the human race. Everlasting life or everlasting death are the opposites he put forward....not “heaven or hell”.

If Adam had simply obeyed his Creator, no savior would have been needed...no kingdom would have been necessary to bring about reconciliation with God....and no death would ever have occurred. Have you never asked why God created the earth for us...and we for the earth?

It was never God’s intention to take any human to heaven, but with the reality of sin, God planned his rescue mission, all the while keeping his original purpose in mind. (Isa 55:11)
You people are so focussed on getting yourselves to heaven and relegating the rest of us to your “hell of eternal torment” that you have lost sight of why God created us here on this planet, in the first place.

God's salvation is a Free Gift.

"Abraham BELIEVED GOD", and it was counted to Him as RIGHTEOUSNESS.

He had not committed any works YET........all he had done, was given what God required........ = His FAITH., and God counted Him Righteous.
Paul teaches that Abrahams is the "father of our faith".....not the father of our obedience or works.

Perhaps you need to read the account again....and then read James 2:14-26....ESV...
“What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.”

Paul concurs....as the apostles and other Bible writers always do. God’s word is God’s word....not just Paul’s.
This James was the half brother of Jesus.

Christians are become Children of God by FAITH.......not by works.

Its (God's) = "GRACE through faith, without works or deeds of the Law".

The Mosiac law was done away with, but not the principles of the law, which all still apply under the law of the Christ.

There are no Christians in Hell, and there are no Christ rejectors, never born again, in Heaven.
Heaven, is an eternal destination, and Hell is the Same.

You’ve got that so wrong! There never was a “heaven or hell” scenario...that is a satanic lie.....a product of the RCC, and every other false religion you can think of. They all believe the devil’s lie. “You surely will not die”.... It requires belief in an immortal soul...something the Bible does not teach, and something the Jews never believed, because their Scripture never mentioned it. The dead are dead.....amazing, isn’t it? “Sheol” is not just the place where your body goes....it’s the place where “you” are going. (Eccl 9:5 10)

It requires a resurrection to get you out of Sheol/hades. (John 5:28-29)

Your particular JW cult is one of the worst false "weeds" the Devil has ever created.

I think the Jews probably said the same thing about Jesus and his disciples.....(John 15:18-21; Matt 5:12-13)
The “weeds” in Jesus day were the ones pointing fingers at the “wheat” and declaring them as apostates.....
Satan has no new tricks. He doesn’t need any...the old ones are all still working.
Nothing in his world is as it seems. (1 John 5:19; 2 Cor 4:3-4)

 

[Zao is life]

[Matthew 21:32 KJV] 32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen [it], repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

What is to repent to have eternal life. Is it to turn from your sins? Is it to follow Jesus? Is it to ask Jesus into your heart and life? Is it to meet Jesus?

Looking at Matthew 21:32 above, we can see what scripture means to repent to be justified unto eternal life. Jesus was speaking to the rulers of Israel, who did not believe the baptism of John. Jesus told them the publicans and harlots believed John, but they did not. The rulers did not repent and believe John.

To repent is to go from unbelief to belief.

[Mark 1:15 KJV] 15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Jesus said to repent and believe the gospel. Repentance is to believe.

I agree. It's a.k.a changing your mind in modern English - but that also involves changing our minds about whether or not something is sin (i.e agreeing with God and turning from disagreement to agreement).

But we also need to agree that death cannot give life to itself and sinful flesh cannot put sin in the flesh to death, except by the Spirit, and that involves a believing, trustful reliance on Christ.

Belief is the foundation of repentance. We change our mind about God, Christ, life, and ourselves. And it's a continual process.

 

[Behold]

I have tried many times with you. Your mouth is extremely rude to pretty much everyone.

If you are dishonest, then you get what you deserve.
This is a Christian forum. Its not a place for carnal people like you to make false accusations.
Perhaps you're not able to comprehend this, @PS95. But like i told you before, when you state something in a post, that isnt' true regarding what i teach, and you post no quote......just the false accustion, then this proves you are dishonest.

Now here is what you are not understanding, and this is typical of someone who is religious, and has bounced around from cults to whatever you are now...
You are a very "baby minded" believer.,
And all who are like this, have to learn something, that is the simple basics regarding how you begin to "work out your salvation".

You have to learn that Salvation is What God provided, and your discipleship is not that.......Your discipleship is what you do, after you have received God's = "GIFT of Salvation".
You have to learn that Salvation is not your Discipleship.. .
See, Your Discipleship, is what you do for God because you have received God's "GIFT of Salvation.".
Discipleship and Salvation are not the same thing.
Baby Christians always try to combine them as one, and that is why they can't understand that its not what we do, that saves us or keeps us saved.., its Christ alone who Saves us and keeps us saved......and after we have received what He has completed as our Salvation, then we begin our discipleship.

 

[Behold]

To be “made righteous” in sinful flesh is impossible.....

""The body is dead because of sin"".... Its the spirit that is born again.. = that is "made righteous".

Christian's are born again spiritually, by the Holy Spirit of God.
This has to happen before you die, or ""you'll die in your sins"", (Jesus said)... and you'll go to Hell.
You can't be born again in Hell.
Pretending that Hell does not exist wont get rid of it.

You cannot be “born again” and still live in mortal flesh.

Every Christian is born again spiritually, and lives inside their body.
The body is just the container ......the earth suit.... that houses the Spirit.
Christians will eventually get a new body when Jesus comes back for them, that is designed for their born again spirit.

If you are speaking of “Gehenna”

"""Hell is created for the devil and his angels"""", and all who are not born again before they die ...will go there when they die.

There is no consciousness in Sheol or Gehenna.

JW theology, does not work at all on a Christian forum.....have you realized this yet @Aunty Jane ?

Listen, Every Christ rejector, never born again.....died under this..(John 3:36) , and they went to hell.
All of them believe Hell it real now, as they are in it.

Death ends our present life and a resurrection is how we get back what Adam

Adam the 1st lost spiritual union with God, because of his disobedience, and Jesus the 2nd Adam came to restore ""( all who will believe in Jesus)'" back into spiritual union with God, for eternity.
The way back to God, is to be forgiven all sin, and then born again by the spirit of God as.....>"in Christ".. and '"one with God".

Jesus said "you must be born again", and that has to happen before you die, or you die unforgiven, "In your sins" and going to Hell is the initial end result.

If Adam had simply obeyed his Creator, no savior would have been needed...

Adam's fall is the fall of us all.......He lost spiritual union with God, for the entire human race.
2nd Adam, Who is Jesus The Christ, came to reconcile us back to God, = back to spiritual union with God for eternity.

How?
Jesus said....."you must be born again".... Spiritually.
"All who call on the name of Jesus, by Faith, shall be saved"....and that is WHEN God will give you the new birth.. as "born again" as a "new creation in Christ". = A CHRISTian.

You people are so focussed on getting yourselves to heaven

Paul said that going to heaven.....= ""to be with Christ" is "far better" ........and He's not kidding.

Perhaps you need to read the account again....and then read James 2:14-26....ESV...
“What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works?

Real faith in Christ, produces evidence of it being real.

= "works".

Religious people often believe falsely that if they are trying to be like Christ, and do some good in the world, then that is evidence that they are right with God. And in fact, its just works, and God does not accept our works to accept us. He only accepts Christ's eternal sacrifice on our behalf to accept us and keep us.

Paul concurs....as the apostles and other Bible writers always do. God’s word is God’s word....not just Paul’s.

Paul wrote all the doctrine for the Church. THis is why most of the NT Epistle are written by Paul.

There never was a “heaven or hell” scenario...that is a satanic lie...

"Hell was created for the Devil and His angels".

Jesus later said that its better to cut off your own hand or take out your own eye, vs, going to Hell.........as its that terrible.
And Hell is just the beginning of the 2nd Death that is eternal damnation.

It requires a resurrection to get you out of Sheol/hades. (John 5:28-29)

Christians are "seated in heavenly places in Christ".....right now.... Christans are "one with God" right now....so, there is no "sheol or hades" waiting for the born again Christian.

The “weeds” in Jesus day were the ones pointing fingers at the “wheat” and declaring them as apostates.....

Hebrews 13:9 explains "weed" as :

Catholic
Jehovah's Witness
Calvinism
Mormonism
Mary Baker Eddy
Scientology
Islam
Buddhism
ect.

 

[PS95]

If you are dishonest, then you get what you deserve.
This is a Christian forum. Its not a place for carnal people like you to make false accusations.
Perhaps you're not able to comprehend this, @PS95. But like i told you before, when you state something in a post, that isnt' true regarding what i teach, and you post no quote......just the false accustion, then this proves you are dishonest.

Now here is what you are not understanding, and this is typical of someone who is religious, and has bounced around from cults to whatever you are now...
You are a very "baby minded" believer.,
And all who are like this, have to learn something, that is the simple basics regarding how you begin to "work out your salvation".

You have to learn that Salvation is What God provided, and your discipleship is not that.......Your discipleship is what you do, after you have received God's = "GIFT of Salvation".
You have to learn that Salvation is not your Discipleship.. .
See, Your Discipleship, is what you do for God because you have received God's "GIFT of Salvation.".
Discipleship and Salvation are not the same thing.
Baby Christians always try to combine them as one, and that is why they can't understand that its not what we do, that saves us or keeps us saved.., its Christ alone who Saves us and keeps us saved......and after we have received what He has completed as our Salvation, then we begin our discipleship.

 

[Behold]

Instead of accusing me of what i dont actually teach... or redundantly posting a lot of disconnected verses....why dont you ask me a theology question.
A bible verse, and a question about it perhaps?

 

[PS95]

Instead of accusing me of what i dont actually teach... or redundantly posting a lot of disconnected verses....why dont you ask me a theology question.
A bible verse, and a question about it perhaps?

Hilarious.
You ignored all of PAUL's passages because you don't teach PAUL.
I am not going to waste anymore time with you or on this. You show zero evidence of a born again transformation. You are arrogant and rude to everyone. Your name calling is childish. You will be held accountable for every word you utter.

 

[Behold]

Hilarious.
You ignored all of PAUL's passages because you don't teach PAUL.

More false accustions, same as before, and again no quotes.
You have trouble with honesty. @PS95

So, Next time, as i told you before, just ask a question, using a verse if need be, and i can help you.
Im not interested in you posting 20 verses, that dont connect in context, that you can't explain.
Just try one question, and one verse, and we can have a legit discussion.

 

[soberxp]

Hello Jane.
As I was reading, I was at first not surprised by the classic JW word games that make it sound as if you teach that Jesus paid for our sins. You know you don't teach that. JWs teach that your physical death is how you pay for your own sins.-
You know that God does not demand 2 payments, right? So i have been told by JWs..
You also know that you teach one man = "one man ransom" so it is not even remotely possible in your belief system that your Jesus "could" die for all of OUR sins.
So, Please stop using smooth words that deceive. If your religion is "the truth" why muddle it? Just tell it like it is if you are in the only religion on earth that God approves..

And then this statement below!!!?!!-- this is terribly sad. It just shows Jane, that you have no understanding of God's gift of salvation to us at all.
This is earning salvation- period. It is impossible. . No. First you accept God's gift of salvation and are gifted with His spirit through whom we have a changed heart & mind and life and joyfully want to obey Him. None of that is of ourselves- but it is all of God who lives in us! God is indeed our salvation. He has definitely become my salvation. Please pray about this Jane. This is a deadly statement.

. Our salvation is not of ourselves. Yes, God DOES save us.

Make haste to help me,
O Lord, my salvation! Ps 38:2

Blessed be the Lord, who daily bears our burden,
The God who is our salvation. Selah. Ps 68:19


By awesome deeds You answer us in righteousness, O God of our salvation,
You who are the trust of all the ends of the earth and of the farthest sea; Ps 65:5

Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of Your name;
And deliver us and forgive our sins for Your name’s sake. Ps 79:9


Restore us, O God of our salvation,
And cause Your indignation toward us to cease. Ps 85:4

Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
For You are the God of my salvation;
For You I wait all the day. Ps 25:5

Do not hide Your face from me,
Do not turn Your servant away in anger;
You have been my help;
Do not abandon me nor forsake me,
O God of my salvation! Ps 27:9

O Lord, the God of my salvation,
I have cried out by day and in the night before You. Ps 88:1

“He will cry to Me, ‘You are my Father,
My God, and the rock of my salvation.’ Ps 89:26

O come, let us sing for joy to the Lord,
Let us shout joyfully to the rock of our salvation. Ps 95:1

He only is my rock and my salvation,
My stronghold; I shall not be greatly shaken. Ps 62:2

He only is my rock and my salvation,
My stronghold; I shall not be shaken. Ps 62:6

But as for me, I will watch expectantly for the Lord;
I will wait for the God of my salvation.
My God will hear me. Micah 7:7

The Lord is my light and my salvation;
Whom shall I fear?
The Lord is the defense of my life;
Whom shall I dread? Ps 27:1

The LORD is my strength and my song, and He has become my salvation. Ps 118:14

“I, even I, am the Lord,
And there is no savior besides Me. Isa 43:11

Is it not I, the Lord?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A righteous God and a Savior;
There is none except Me.
“Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other. Isa 45:21-22

“Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.” – Acts 4:12


“He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.” – Titus 3:5


“And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.” – 1 John 4:14


“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.” – Ephesians 2:8-9

“God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” – 2 Corinthians 5:21



I think that should suffice- there are many more. Yes of course God saves us.--


I do not agree with Behold that our behavior does not matter after we receive the gracious gift of salvation.
It is utterly ridiculous to say that a saved person's behavior does not matter. But even that changed behavior & heart is only us cooperating with the Spirit's power in us. We can do NOTHING of ourselves.

God does not save us, but he teaches us through obedience to save us from death.
If we don't know what obedience is, we maybe as Adam and Eve.
That's why Jesus Christ is the second Adam, the spiritual Adam.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Hell is filled with water baptized hyper religious followers of Jesus, who were never born again.

You are correct....”hell” (hades) is filled with followers of Jesus because that is all there ever was, and since death means the opposite of life, there are also unrighteous ones who are still “sleeping” who will awaken to life, along with the righteous of ones. Jesus calls all the dead from their graves (John 5:28-29)....and they will be judged by what they do after their resurrection, since they have paid the highest penalty possible for their crimes.
Was there ever a higher penalty for any sin, than death? What is the point of resurrecting the dead if God is only going to punish them for all eternity? Is that justice? Isn’t justice served by the forfeit of their lives?

God has no reason to punish anyone who committed sins in ignorance. Many of the dead have never heard of the true God or his son. Why punish them for something that is not their fault?

God's salvation is a Free Gift.

"Abraham BELIEVED GOD", and it was counted to Him as RIGHTEOUSNESS.

He had not committed any works YET........all he had done, was given what God required........ = His FAITH., and God counted Him Righteous.
Paul teaches that Abrahams is the "father of our faith".....not the father of our obedience or works.

Christians are become Children of God by FAITH.......not by works.

Why do you exhibit such limited knowledge....Abraham was living a comfortable life in Ur...a place he had probably lived all his life, when God told him to upstakes and leave his relatives and friends along with many of his worldly goods, and move to a location that was unknown to him. That is faith alright, but it was backed up by works of obedience.
Being asked to sacrifice his son required faith too, but again he backed it up by his actions. If the works stop, the faith is useless unless it is put into action.

Its (God's) = "GRACE through faith, without works or deeds of the Law".

The law of Moses was abolished when Christ died....but that did not release any of his disciples from an obligation to imitate the apostles, who all imitated Jesus. Who was the model? Not Paul. (1 Peter 2:21)

What purpose does Hell serve?
It serves as the initial destination for someone who was not born again, who has died "in their sins".. as a John 3:36.
There is no way back, and there is no 2nd chance in Hell., as this one has entered "2nd death".

Which “hell” are you referring to here? “Hades”...or...“Gehenna”? Do you know the difference?... because these are not words that can be translated as if they mean the same thing.
One of them is “the lake of fire”, which is simply eternal death.....no one who is consigned to “Gehenna” will ever live again...anywhere......and ”hades” releases it’s dead. (Rev 20:13 14) You cannot conflate the two.

 

[Aunty Jane]

There are no Christians in Hell, and there are no Christ rejectors, never born again, in Heaven.
Heaven, is an eternal destination, and Hell is the Same.

I’m sorry but every person who has died went to Sheol/hades because it is mankind’s common grave....who told you otherwise? Before Christ died and opened the way to heaven, no one went anywhere but to “sleep” in Sheol/Hades. Eccl 9:5,6,10 says so.

“4  There is hope for whoever is among the living, because a live dog is better off than a dead lion. 5  For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 6  Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun. . . . .10  Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave [sheol] where you are going.”

Why is a live dog better off than a dead lion? Because a live dog has life, and can do what it pleases, but a dead lion has no such choices, because his life and his ability to do anything, is gone.

The living know that they will die because we all do.....but “the dead know nothing at all”....all their emotions are gone, including love, which is God’s cardinal quality......so that those in Sheol cannot think, plan, or function in any capacity. The dead are actually dead. There is no immortal soul to go anywhere...and the “spirit” in man that animates him is his “breath”. The word “spirit” is routinely translated both ways in Scripture, so they mean the same thing. One’s spirit is not a ghost....there is no such thing as the ghosts of the dead.

Go back to Eden...Adam wasn’t ‘given’ a soul....he “became” one when God gave him “breath”.
There is nothing that departs from the body at death except the last breath in their lungs.....and anyone who has sat beside a dying person knows this.

""The body is dead because of sin"".... Its the spirit that is born again.. = that is "made righteous".

The body is not dead until breathing ceases. When breathing stops, the brain becomes oxygen deprived and the organs break down until the heart stops beating.
The spirit is not restored until their resurrection. God will reanimate all the “souls” who come back in the resurrection.

Christian's are born again spiritually, by the Holy Spirit of God

A Christian is “born again” when Jesus resurrects them, and takes them “home” to be where he has “prepared a place for them”. Paul said this was not to happen until his return. So where did all the souls go before Jesus opened the way to heaven?

This has to happen before you die, or ""you'll die in your sins"", (Jesus said)... and you'll go to Hell.

To “die in your sins” is the reject the offer made in a person’s behalf by the death of Christ....according to Paul, there are only two categories of people who will suffer rejection when the judgment of “the sheep and the goats” is made....(2 Thess 1:6-10) Those who “do not know God”, because they choose not to, and those who know him but “do not obey” the teachings of the Christ.

 

[Aunty Jane]

You can't be born again in Hell.
Pretending that Hell does not exist wont get rid of it.

I don’t have to pretend that “hell” does not exist, because I know what the difference is between “hades” and “Gehenna”......something you need to research. There is no such place as Christendom’s “hell”....the Bible does not mention such a place because it defies God’s justice.

Every Christian is born again spiritually, and lives inside their body.
The body is just the container ......the earth suit.... that houses the Spirit.

The body cannot live without the soul, and a soul cannot exist without a body....the soul is the person, not some separate conscious entity that can exist on its own, and which leaves the body at death. Nowhere does the Bible even suggest such a thing. The words “immortal” and “soul” do not exist side by side in any passage of Scripture. The reason why is obvious. Souls are not disembodied spirits.

Christians will eventually get a new body when Jesus comes back for them, that is designed for their born again spirit.

And where will I find that stated in the Bible? What sort of “body” do you imagine will be given to those ones, and for what purpose are people “born again”?

"""Hell is created for the devil and his angels"""", and all who are not born again before they die ...will go there when they die.

The devil and his angels will never go to “hell” (hades) but they are destined for “the lake of fire” which is not a literal destination, because “death and hades” are cast into this “lake” for utter destruction. (Rev 20:13-14)
The incorrigibly stubborn rejectors of Jesus Christ, (goats) will be cast into this “lake” long before the devil gets there. (Matt 25:41) When the goats are given their eternal death sentence, the devil, will be thrown into a prison like state, whilst Jesus and his elect bring the redeemed human race back into reconciliation with God. And only after one final test when he is released, (Rev 20:1-3) will the devil and his hordes be eliminated from existence forever.

JW theology, does not work at all on a Christian forum.....have you realized this yet @Aunty Jane ?

That made me laugh.....you do realize that others here find that your own theology “does not work” on a Christian forum? Nor does your pompous attitude show a Christ-like personality.

Listen, Every Christ rejector, never born again.....died under this..(John 3:36) , and they went to hell.
All of them believe Hell it real now, as they are in it.

Listen??? Why would anyone have to listen to you? You have consigned so many to a place of eternal torment that doesn’t even exist. All the dead, “in Christ” or not, are in “hades”.....it’s the place where all the dead are buried. God has not forgotten a single one of them. He knows all the stars by name.....(Psalm 147:4) and there are many more of them than there are humans.

Adam the 1st lost spiritual union with God, because of his disobedience, and Jesus the 2nd Adam came to restore ""( all who will believe in Jesus)'" back into spiritual union with God, for eternity.
The way back to God, is to be forgiven all sin, and then born again by the spirit of God as.....>"in Christ".. and '"one with God".

Does your scenario include those who died in pre-Christian times without any knowledge of God or his son? Are they penalised for being born at the wrong time, into the wrong faith, or nation? What kind of God would be so unjust?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Jesus said "you must be born again", and that has to happen before you die, or you die unforgiven, "In your sins" and going to Hell is the initial end result.

Nonsense.

"All who call on the name of Jesus, by Faith, shall be saved"....and that is WHEN God will give you the new birth.. as "born again" as a "new creation in Christ". = A CHRISTian.

The apostle Peter said of Jesus in Acts 4:12......”there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.”

But Paul quoted Joel 2:32 when he said......” For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Jesus was not born when Joel recorded that prophesy, so who was “the Lord” that Joel spoke of...? The Jewish Tanakh clearly shows that it is “Yahweh”. So who are we to call on for salvation? The same one who called Jesus out of death....the one into whose hands he entrusted his life in a resurrection.

Religious people often believe falsely that if they are trying to be like Christ, and do some good in the world, then that is evidence that they are right with God. And in fact, its just works, and God does not accept our works to accept us. He only accepts Christ's eternal sacrifice on our behalf to accept us and keep us.

Religious people? You mean those who are trying to be Christ-like in their behavior? You should try it sometime....

Paul wrote all the doctrine for the Church. THis is why most of the NT Epistle are written by Paul.

Paul was chosen because he was different to the 12...he was not an uneducated fisherman, but an educated Pharisee with a sad history as far as Christianity was concerned. God saw that his motives were good, just very misdirected. He was specially appointed as an “apostle to the nations”....which he humbly accepted.....he was ‘at home’ intellectually and academically, with the Greek philosophers, as well as the Jewish rabbis. A real asset to the cause. But he was never placed above the 12. Nor were his writings in competition with the other apostles. He did not teach anything that opposed what they wrote.

"Hell was created for the Devil and His angels".

Jesus later said that its better to cut off your own hand or take out your own eye, vs, going to Hell.........as its that terrible.
And Hell is just the beginning of the 2nd Death that is eternal damnation.

Not even close. Do some decent research on “Gehenna”.....it was a literal place that came to represent the state of those who were condemned to eternal death.....the second death is a permanent death, as opposed to the first death (inherited from Adam) and from which a resurrection was promised. (John 5:28-29; Acts 24:15)

Christians are "seated in heavenly places in Christ".....right now.... Christans are "one with God" right now....so, there is no "sheol or hades" waiting for the born again Christian.

You are right, but since “hell” is the common grave of all mankind, I can assure you that there is not a single one of Christ’s “bride” who are now dead. The Kingdom rules, and those who will reign with Christ are “resurrected first” and are already in their appointed positions, in preparation for the Kingdom to rule over the whole earth once it is cleansed of all who support man’s kingdoms, over God’s. We are living in the days of those last kings. (Dan 2:44)
There is no place in God’s kingdom for those with divided loyalties.....the very thing that undid Adam.

 

[PS95]

God does not save us, but he teaches us through obedience to save us from death.
If we don't know what obedience is, we maybe as Adam and Eve.
That's why Jesus Christ is the second Adam, the spiritual Adam.

I see. I will begin a new thread on this for you and my JW friend @Aunty Jane. I will tag you when I do.
The question is will @Aunty Jane reply?
Will you, @soberxp ? If not interested just say so, please.
I have begun a couple of threads for AJane- she ignores them and everything I post to her. JWs enjoy shunning people.

 

[Behold]

Nonsense.


“Yahweh”. So who are we to call on for salvation?

Call on the One who died on The Cross for your sin.... and His Father will hear your prayer.

Religious people? You mean those who are trying to be Christ-like in their behavior? You should try it sometime....

According to the NT, your false doctrine is to be rebuked, and sent out.

Paul was chosen because he was different to the 12..

Paul was chosen because as Paul explains.....>>He was "a chief of sinners"..... and also a High Ranking Pharasee. (Tribe of Benjamin).
So, God wanted to show, through Paul........The Grace of God.

Paul is a "trophy of God's Grace".

Not even close. Do some decent research on “Gehenna”...

Not interested.
I'll leave you to your gehanna obsession.

You are right, but since “hell” is the common grave of all mankind,

Your body goes to the grave or to the cremation furnace. Your spirit goes into eternity.
Have you decided if you are going to be buried or cremated? As this can be a harsh situation to suddenly leave for your family to decide for you. @Aunty Jane

Also, everyone who went to Hell today........they all believe in it now.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Behold, I took the time to cover all your points, but as usual you skip over what you cannot defend.

Call on the One who died on The Cross for your sin.... and His Father will hear your prayer.

Who did Jesus teach us to call on? Whose name was he making known?

John 17:25-26...ESV...
“O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.”

He said to his Father..... “I have made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known”......he didn’t say “I have made MY name known”, because they already knew who Jesus was, but the world does not know the Father, and Jesus said that his disciples knew that he had been sent by the one who was their God too. (1 Cor 8:5-6) They knew who Yahweh was....and who Jesus was. (John 17:3)

According to the NT, your false doctrine is to be rebuked, and sent out.

Who made you the judge of all truth? How do you know that the devil isn’t having a lend of you? Those rejected by Jesus at the judgment will have no idea that they are on the wrong platform whilst waiting for the right train until it’s too late. (Matt 7:13-14; 21-23) Each person will be judged on how well they obeyed Jesus’ teachings of their own free will.

Paul was chosen because as Paul explains.....>>He was "a chief of sinners"..... and also a High Ranking Pharasee. (Tribe of Benjamin).
So, God wanted to show, through Paul........The Grace of God.

Paul is a "trophy of God's Grace".

Paul is the epitome of humility. He had a reputation that he was proud of.....and yet when that proud man was humiliated by the one whose name he had tried to stamp out, he humbled himself, and set an example for all the proud and arrogant people who claim some kind of authority to teach others. Christ was not like that at all. Humility was one of his most attractive features.

Not interested.
I'll leave you to your gehanna obsession.

Well, that gave me a chuckle.....”not interested” in the truth? You don’t know the difference between “hades” and “Gehenna” and yet you teach others about God’s Word? Who can take you seriously?
You ignore what you can’t answer. What a great teacher!

Your body goes to the grave or to the cremation furnace. Your spirit goes into eternity.

The “spirit that returns to God” is symbolic of the life that he will restore at the resurrection.
Your body is host to the soul, who is the whole person, not some shadowy entity that simply inhabits your body and can live without it. That is not a Bible teaching, but a pagan adoption which leads people away from the truth about life and death. The soul dies along with the body (Ezekiel 18:4)....the “spirit” or “breath” (“rûaḥ” same word) “departs” by way of escaping from the lungs in a last gasp.

Psalm 146:4...
“When his breath (spirit) departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.”
It’s hard to make plans when you are unconscious.

Only God can recreate a body and soul and animate it with his spirit to breathe again in the resurrection.

Have you decided if you are going to be buried or cremated? As this can be a harsh situation to suddenly leave for your family to decide for you. @Aunty Jane

What does it matter how the body returns to the dust? One way takes time, the other is instantaneous....God does not need a single molecule of our old sinful body to recreate the person(soul) in a new body, with sin completely removed. That is what the resurrection is for.

Also, everyone who went to Hell today........they all believe in it now.

Everyone who died today went to “hell”, because it is not a place of conscious existence. It is the place where all the dead must go....mankind’s common grave. We have no superiority over the animals in death because we all end up in the same place.

Eccl 3:19-21...ESV...
“I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they themselves are but beasts. For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.”

This is what was taught in Jewish Scripture...the Scripture that Jesus and his apostles often quoted.
We go to the same place as the animals do......back to where Adam was told that he would go. (Gen 3:19)

There are no immortal souls floating about after death.....they are all peacefully “sleeping”, just as Jesus said his friend Lazarus was. (John 11:11-14) Have you never wondered why Jesus brought Lazarus back to life if he was in a better place? Did he do him any favours by restoring him back to this life, only to die again?

You really have no answers, do you, @Behold...you are all bluff and bluster, but no substance. You cannot discuss scripture that is outside of your own theology. You are lost to answer anything that fails to conform to your interpretation of truth. (1 Peter 3:15)