What is Sin?

[robert derrick]

Well God gives us this pure heart! But we still daily must contend with the old heart. It will always be there and we are called to learn to live in the new man which never lusts and deny the old man which always lusts. And when we fall back into teh old man- Thank god for His mercy and 1 John 1:9

It is not about purifying, but dying to self and living unto Jesus! We are not called to purify our old man, but to live in the new man which is already pure! It is not a matter of giving up, but taking on the new life freely given us.

I just wanted to see if you would actually say that you now have two hearts along with your two natures, and so two souls as well.

No wonder OSAS glorifies being double minded for life: they are double minded, double hearted, and double souled.

OSAS goes so far as to teach the psychotic dissociative identity disorder of the split multiple personality, in order to justify not purifying their heart of lust nor crucifying their old man of sin.

OSAS is seriously strong delusion indeed.

Nevertheless, Jesus does not walk arm and arm with the devil on the side and He on the other, nor does He dwell in any heart of darkness and lust.

And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart.

The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

I suppose we need to account for two bodies in the OSAS kingdom as well, so that they choose day to day which one they will be.

It's akin to sexual orientation identity psychosis.

OSAS is not saved with obedience to God, but is only woke enough to agree He is God.

 

[PinSeeker]

I just wanted to see if you would actually say that you now have two hearts along with your two natures, and so two souls as well.

And two noses, and two heads... actually that would be a total of four noses on the two heads we have (along with two pairs of arms and two pairs of legs)... LOL!

Yes, to say something like that would be akin to saying all have two physical bodies, which, of course, nobody actually would, crazy people included... LOL!

However, we who are born again of the Spirit do have two natures ~ still possessing the sinful nature and having been born again spiritually ~ is most assuredly a Biblical reality. Paul calls it the "old man" and the "new man"... we still struggle to put off the old and put on the new. This is the Christian walk in this life, and it is not easy, but by the will of the God the Father and the power of God the Holy Spirit will be brought to completion at the day of Christ.

No wonder OSAS glorifies being double minded for life...

OSAS goes so far as to teach the psychotic dissociative identity disorder of the split multiple personality, in order to justify not purifying their heart of lust nor crucifying their old man of sin.

LOL!!! Such an empty rant. Incredible. And without credit.

OSAS is seriously strong delusion indeed.

Well, it would be if it were anything even remotely similar to what you propagate. LOL!

Nevertheless, Jesus does not walk arm and arm with the devil on the side and He on the other, nor does He dwell in any heart of darkness and lust.

Right. Finally, a moment of clarity. No one suggests otherwise. But He did take on human form for a time and was tempted in every way we are ~ and paid the wages of sin ~ for our sake. Thanks be to God.

OSAS is not saved with obedience to God...

Right, but no one is. Those who are born again of the Spirit are saved to obedience to God... made slaves of righteousness, as Paul puts it in Romans 5.

...but is only woke enough to agree He is God.

Ah, wokeness. Everyone agrees He is God, Robert, but many ~ because of their deadness in sin, slavery to unrighteousness ~ deny Him in said unrighteousness (Paul, Romans 1) and so are without excuse and eventually bring upon themselves their own end.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Uh...no.
God circumcises the Heart of a CONVERTED man.
Done deal.
No we do not contend with the old heart....it IS cut off.
Done deal.
The old man, IS dead; forgiven, crucified, washed, covered, sanctified, prepared....to be raised in glory, body, soul, spirit.
Done Deal.

What God did NOT CHANGE is our Carnal Minds.
That is a mans burden to bare.
A Converted man has Gods Power within him, IN the mans new born again spirit, in his new heart, the tools (so to speak...Gods Power), for the man to MAKE HIS CARNAL MIND,
Subservient, ie. Yield to the thoughts of his Heart.

And the purpose? The benefit? The consequence to NOT follow Gods PRECEPTS?
(For men to make his carnal mind yield to his hearts thoughts?)
* The Purpose is for man to effect Gods PRECEPTS.
What are PRECEPTS?
Gods guidelines FOR Beneficial Behaviors between and among men.
* The Benefit is FOR men, friend or enemy, to be cordial, get along neighborly, despite differences.
* The Consequences for Not following Gods Precepts between and among men
IS Strife, Loathing, Warring, Cheating, Lying, Stealing, Slandering, Retaliation, Vengeance, etc.
Men Trespassing Against men.

We may be saying the same thing, just in differing ways, though I can't be sure.

 

[Sabertooth]

What is Sin?

It is an inborn disregard for God's Kingdom.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I just wanted to see if you would actually say that you now have two hearts along with your two natures, and so two souls as well.

No wonder OSAS glorifies being double minded for life: they are double minded, double hearted, and double souled.

OSAS goes so far as to teach the psychotic dissociative identity disorder of the split multiple personality, in order to justify not purifying their heart of lust nor crucifying their old man of sin.

OSAS is seriously strong delusion indeed.

Nevertheless, Jesus does not walk arm and arm with the devil on the side and He on the other, nor does He dwell in any heart of darkness and lust.

And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart.

The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

I suppose we need to account for two bodies in the OSAS kingdom as well, so that they choose day to day which one they will be.

It's akin to sexual orientation identity psychosis.

OSAS is not saved with obedience to God, but is only woke enough to agree He is God.

Thus endeth the conversation. I will not converse with one who is psychotic and chooses to rant. when you can act more Christian let me know.

YOu need professional help.

 

[Taken]

We may be saying the same thing, just in differing ways, though I can't be sure.

Probably so. In general speech hearing people can decipher intent, more readily that deaf persons. I have a long history with deaf persons, talking about all kinds of things including Scripture, so it is my habit to try as be as precise as possible, and yes it lends me to getting long winded and detailed.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Taken]

No wonder OSAS glorifies being double minded for life: they are double minded, double hearted, and double souled.

OSAS goes so far as to teach the psychotic dissociative identity disorder of the split multiple personality, in order to justify not purifying their heart of lust nor crucifying their old man of sin.

OSAS is seriously strong delusion indeed.

I suppose we need to account for two bodies in the OSAS kingdom as well, so that they choose day to day which one they will be.

It's akin to sexual orientation identity psychosis.

OSAS is not saved with obedience to God, but is only woke enough to agree He is God.

Oh good grief robert ..... get a grip. IF that is what a PERSON who believes they are SAVED ONCE and forever believes........WHY ARE YOU NOT QUOTING THEM?

Speaking FOR THEM, is simply gaslighting, and only reflects poorly on you.

OOPS!

 

[robert derrick]

It is an inborn disregard for God's Kingdom.

Well put: lust born in the heart by obeying it.

Until we obey the 1st commandment to purify our heart by His power, we will not becomes sons of God in His kingdom.

 

[robert derrick]

Oh good grief robert ..... get a grip. IF that is what a PERSON who believes they are SAVED ONCE and forever believes........WHY ARE YOU NOT QUOTING THEM?

Speaking FOR THEM, is simply gaslighting, and only reflects poorly on you.

OOPS!

If you have a better understanding of what it means to claim 2 hearts, one new and pure from God, along with the old one of lust, then do so.

When I read absurdity, I strip it of any pretence of sincerity in the doctrine of Christ.

 

[robert derrick]

And two noses, and two heads... actually that would be a total of four noses on the two heads we have (along with two pairs of arms and two pairs of legs)... LOL!

Yes, to say something like that would be akin to saying all have two physical bodies, which, of course, nobody actually would, crazy people included... LOL!

However, we who are born again of the Spirit do have two natures ~ still possessing the sinful nature and having been born again spiritually ~ is most assuredly a Biblical reality. Paul calls it the "old man" and the "new man"... we still struggle to put off the old and put on the new. This is the Christian walk in this life, and it is not easy, but by the will of the God the Father and the power of God the Holy Spirit will be brought to completion at the day of Christ.

LOL!!! Such an empty rant. Incredible. And without credit.


Well, it would be if it were anything even remotely similar to what you propagate. LOL!


Right. Finally, a moment of clarity. No one suggests otherwise. But He did take on human form for a time and was tempted in every way we are ~ and paid the wages of sin ~ for our sake. Thanks be to God.


Right, but no one is. Those who are born again of the Spirit are saved to obedience to God... made slaves of righteousness, as Paul puts it in Romans 5.


Ah, wokeness. Everyone agrees He is God, Robert, but many ~ because of their deadness in sin, slavery to unrighteousness ~ deny Him in said unrighteousness (Paul, Romans 1) and so are without excuse and eventually bring upon themselves their own end.

Grace and peace to all.

However, we who are born again of the Spirit do have two natures ~ still possessing the sinful nature and having been born again spiritually ~

Yes, I am already aware of that false teaching. And now OSAS has gone so far as to actually claim having two hearts: a new pure one given by God and the old one of lust.

Since they have two hearts, then they must have two souls: spiritual psychosis of a split personality disorder.

is most assuredly a Biblical reality.

No Scripture for two natures in one soul. OSAS is forced to make up much false teaching just to justify their ongoing lust of heart and sins of the flesh, while professing Christ.

 

[PinSeeker]

"However, we who are born again of the Spirit do have two natures ~ still possessing the sinful nature and having been born again spiritually"

Yes, I am already aware of that false teaching.

And I am aware that you think it false, and that's unfortunate... and false.

And now OSAS has gone so far as to actually claim having two hearts...

Well, not all "OSAS" believe those in Christ have, in this life, two natures, only the right ones do.

Since they have two hearts, then they must have two souls...

Sure, and two noses, and two pairs of arms, and two pairs of legs, right? Like I said before...

...spiritual psychosis of a split personality disorder.

That's a ridiculous way to put it, but, well, sort of true... As the writer of Hebrews says, we should consider Him (Jesus, of course) Who endured from sinners such hostility against Himself and resisted even to the point of shedding His blood so that we may not grow weary or fainthearted in our struggle against sin.

"is most assuredly a Biblical reality."

No Scripture for two natures in one soul.

The apostle Paul would correct you on that. In his letter to the Ephesian Christians, he exhorts them to "put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires..." ~ so obviously they still had their (and we still have our) "old selves" ~ "...and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to put on the new self, created..." ~ so obviously they had (and we have) acquired the "new self" ~ "...after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness."

Such bitterness, anger, and dark pride in you, Robert. Every post of yours presents a crystal clear picture of exactly what I'm telling you. You yourself so obviously have this "spiritual psychosis of a split personality disorder." I mean, I'm just assuming there is a good side to you (because I sure haven't seen it), so yes, a "spiritual psychosis of a split personality disorder."

Just a total lack of grace. Repent, my friend.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Taken]

If you have a better understanding of what it means to claim 2 hearts, one new and pure from God, along with the old one of lust, then do so.

When I read absurdity, I strip it of any pretence of sincerity in the doctrine of Christ.

Strip all you like, doesn’t effect me.

Study the Scriptures for the Knowledge you lack.
It is the natural Heart that holds the truth of a natural man;
Called the natural spirit of man.

Pertaining to a man WHO IS (BY GODS WORKS), becoming MADE Converted;
It is the natural Heart that God Circumcises, CUTS OFF the old natural spirit, the old natural truth.

It is a NEW HEART, God Puts within that man.
The New Heart, IS a Spiritual Heart.
The New Heart, IS Filled with Gods Spirit of Truth.

The OLD natural Heart continues to pump the BLOOD of a man, as long as that man Continues in Bodily Physical Life. The BLOOD is the life of that body. The SPIRIT is the life of that man who LIVES IN CHRIST.

IF Gods Works of Changing a man from Physical to Spiritual confuses you, you have missed the WHOLE BIG PICTURE of Gods Teaching.

Physically OT men circumcised their foreskin in acceptance of Gods Promise.
The outward foreskin circumcision was an inward Spiritual Circumcision is of the Heart.

Duet. 4:
[16] Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Jer 4:
[4] Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

Ezek 18:
[31] Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Ezek.36
[26] A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Rom 2:
[29] But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

[robert derrick]

Strip all you like, doesn’t effect me.

Study the Scriptures for the Knowledge you lack.
It is the natural Heart that holds the truth of a natural man;
Called the natural spirit of man.

Pertaining to a man WHO IS (BY GODS WORKS), becoming MADE Converted;
It is the natural Heart that God Circumcises, CUTS OFF the old natural spirit, the old natural truth.

It is a NEW HEART, God Puts within that man.
The New Heart, IS a Spiritual Heart.
The New Heart, IS Filled with Gods Spirit of Truth.

The OLD natural Heart continues to pump the BLOOD of a man, as long as that man Continues in Bodily Physical Life. The BLOOD is the life of that body. The SPIRIT is the life of that man who LIVES IN CHRIST.

IF Gods Works of Changing a man from Physical to Spiritual confuses you, you have missed the WHOLE BIG PICTURE of Gods Teaching.

Physically OT men circumcised their foreskin in acceptance of Gods Promise.
The outward foreskin circumcision was an inward Spiritual Circumcision is of the Heart.

Duet. 4:
[16] Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Jer 4:
[4] Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

Ezek 18:
[31] Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Ezek.36
[26] A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Rom 2:
[29] But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

I think I see what you are saying, which is not having two natures of one soul and one heart, and is not what I expected. I can see the point, but I want to first understand as much as possible, before I can learn to believe it as true. I sincerely hope you take the time to answer. I woke up last night thinking on these things you said.

I will try to be as clear as possible, and it may seem redundant, but my nature is to try and teach in detail what others are teaching me to their satisfaction, before agreeing wholly. I don't just repeat back what is said, but try to clarify and expound on it to see if I got it right.

It is the natural Heart that holds the truth of a natural man; Called the natural spirit of man.

The 'natural man' of Scripture is the natural body? The physical body, heart, and spirit born into the world is called by Scripture the natural man?

The natural spirit of the unsaved natural man is the spirit of error and of the world? And is the soul of the physical man?

Pertaining to a man WHO IS (BY GODS WORKS), becoming MADE Converted; It is the natural Heart that God Circumcises, CUTS OFF the old natural spirit, the old natural truth.

With salvation there is born the new creature in Christ, the new man of the Spirit, and the natural man becomes the old physical man of sin?

Physically OT men circumcised their foreskin in acceptance of Gods Promise.The outward foreskin circumcision was an inward Spiritual Circumcision of the Heart.

In the OT circumcision of the flesh by faith was circumcision of the heart by the Spirit?

But in the NT, the new man's spiritual heart of God is circumcised of the old lust, while the old heart of the body remains uncircumcised?

There is now the new circumcised pure heart of God in the new man, and the old uncircumcised heart of lust in the old man?

It is a NEW HEART, God Puts within that man. The New Heart, IS a Spiritual Heart. The New Heart, IS Filled with Gods Spirit of Truth.

The new creature is now born with new heart and Spirit, so that the spiritual man is born? The old man of sin is the body, and the new man in Christ is the Christian, and there is a 'struggle' between the two?

There is now the spiritual man vs the old physical man?

Before salvation, there was no struggle of the natural man against sin, but only did as the body commanded, but with salvation there is now the old uncircumcised man still commanding to sin, but the new man of circumcised heart and renewed mind resists to obey the commandment of God?

The ongoing struggle between the old and the new man continues in this life, until death of the old man's physical body, while the new man sits preserved in heavenly places?

The OLD natural Heart continues to pump the BLOOD of a man, as long as that man Continues in Bodily Physical Life.

The old man of the physical body remains alive on earth with the old heart of lust?

IF Gods Works of Changing a man from Physical to Spiritual confuses you.

Salvation is changing the natural physical man into the new spiritual man, with the new man now born for the first time, and the old man remaining physically alive?

1. With salvation there becomes two hearts: the old one of lust for the physical old man while remaining on earth, and one new pure heart from God given to the newborn spiritual man?

2. Until salvation all natural men have one physical uncircumcised heart of lust? With salvation there is the pure circumcised heart of the new spiritual man, and the old uncircumcised heart of the old natural body?

3. What of the spirit and soul? As with the old physical heart of lust and the new spiritual heart of Christ, does the old man still have an old dead soul and spirit of error, with the new man having a newborn spiritual soul by the Spirit of Christ?

I look forward to your answers and any clarifications. Thanks.

 

[Taken]

It is the natural Heart that holds the truth of a natural man; Called the natural spirit of man.

The 'natural man' of Scripture is the natural body?

Earthly, Terrestrial, man, Yes.

The physical body, heart, and spirit born into the world is called by Scripture the natural man?

Yes.

The natural spirit of the unsaved natural man is the spirit of error and of the world?

Yes. Spirit of man, is mans natural truths.

And is the soul of the physical man?

No. Soul is Life from God.

* Man’s Body CREATED, by God Forming the Body.
* Formed Body, Born.
* Soul from God MAKES, the Formed Body, Living.
* Man gains Knowledge, by Hearing, Seeing, Tasting, Touching, Smelling.
* Man processes, Knowledge in Carnal Mind. Ciphers, Logically to Believe or Not. Can gain more knowledge, change his MIND, to logically Believe what he did not Believe, to logically Not Believe, what he Did Believe.
* Man processes, Knowledge in Natural spirit in Heart. Keeps that knowledge as Truth.

Example...baby learns Mama is Susie. Learns Daddy is Bill. Learns Mama gives food. Learns Daddy gives food. Can Logically believe this day, Mama will give food, but then this day Daddy gives food. Baby’s Logical Mindful thought changed what he believed.
But yet, in his spirit, in his truth, in his heart, Mommy is still Susie. Daddy is still Bill.
As baby grows, matures, the same scenario regarding new knowledge occurs over and over.
New knowledge in the Carnal Mind is ciphered logically, can change.
New knowledge in the spirit in the Heart, remains, holds his Truth.

Pertaining to a man WHO IS (BY GODS WORKS), becoming MADE Converted; It is the natural Heart that God Circumcises, CUTS OFF the old natural spirit, the old natural truth.

Yes. That is “part” of becoming Made Converted.

With salvation there is born the new creature in Christ, the new man of the Spirit, and the natural man becomes the old physical man of sin?

Receiving “Salvation”, is “part” of Gods Works, included in being MADE converted. As the Works of God are Accomplished, Yes the old physical is “man of sin”, and Accounted Dead. (Gods Accounting of His Works).

Physically OT men circumcised their foreskin in acceptance of Gods Promise.The outward foreskin circumcision was an inward Spiritual Circumcision of the Heart.

Yes, in context. Foreskin circumcision, was a mans ACT, ie. an outward sign of Accepting Gods Promise. WHEN Gods Promise of Spiritual heart circumcision, was manifested, was LATER. Much later. After Jesus arrived on Earth. After Jesus Left Earth. (Jesus being First in all things). Then could a mans heart BE Spiritually Circumcised. Before then, all throughout the OT, God was “WITH” men...WHEN men were “WITH” God. When men Left God. God left men...When men were “WITH” God they Followed Gods (commands, laws, precepts)...When men Left God they Followed mans (ways). God Allowed them to suffer the negative Consequences. When men were “WITH” God, God blessed them “WITH” His positive Consequences. (Protection, Power of God, goodness, etc.)...Same occurs today. Men can be “WITH” God, and He be “WITH” that man. Men can “Leave God”, and God will Leave that man.
(How is that so? Revert back to what is Carnal Knowledge. Believe this, receive new knowledge, change Belief.
Observe, Review OT men. WHO, Carnally Believed then Changed their Mind?
WHO, Believed in their Heart, and Kept their Belief to the end of their physical life? )

In the OT circumcision of the flesh by faith was circumcision of the heart by the Spirit?

OT circumcision of the flesh was a man in agreement to receive Gods Promise, of Gods circumcision of the mans heart.

But in the NT, the new man's spiritual heart of God is circumcised of the old lust, while the old heart of the body remains uncircumcised?

NT is teaching the TIME for FULFILLING Gods Heart Circumcision PROMISE, IS near. The Circumciser, (the ONE who SHALL Circumcise has ARRIVED).
NT teaching is WHEN the (Circumciser LEAVES earth, Then Can a man RECEIVE the SPIRIT of the Circumciser, to Circumcise the mans heart...which IS a man Receiving Gods PROMISE.)
The OLD natural heart, OLD natural Truth REGARDING GOD, is cut off.
A NEW Heart is given, A NEW “Spirit of Truth” is Given. NEW Knowledge (that was hidden) is given to that NEW Heart.
THAT is the EFFECTING of the Promise of God, called the BAPTISM of the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit, IS Gods Works IN the man, Effecting a portion of the Works of God, to establish a man Conversion, from natural ... ACCOUNTED as Spiritual.
*** God Accounts (in His ‘books’ of evidence)...WHAT He DOES, IS Done...
Whether or NOT a man CAN SEE or UNDERSTAND WHAT Works God HAS Done.

There is now the new circumcised pure heart of God in the new man, and the old uncircumcised heart of lust in the old man?

Continued......

 

[Taken]

@robert derrick

Continued ~

It is a NEW HEART, God Puts within that man. The New Heart, IS a Spiritual Heart. The New Heart, IS Filled with Gods Spirit of Truth.

The new creature is now born with new heart and Spirit, so that the spiritual man is born? The old man of sin is the body, and the new man in Christ is the Christian, and there is a 'struggle' between the two?

( New Heart, established. Mans “new spirit”, via Gods Spirit.
Christian is an Indication Title. IS a Believer following, and “with” God, and can “leave”....Converted is a Knowing. A man HopIs “with” God Forever. “Gods Spirit IN the man”. Man is living in Christ Jesus’ risen holy body.)

Old Carnal Mind, still functional. DILEMMA for the man.
* Blessing for men to still learn new Knowledge, cipher, calculate, make logical conclusions, about all kinds of things. What to plant, when, why. What to wear, when, why. What to eat, what work to do, blah, blah.
* And ALSO a Curse for men to lean on Carnal Knowledge, REGARDING Spiritual things, God, Jesus, Christ, Heavens, Spirits, etc. Leads to men,
Logically Concluding, making Philosophical Mindful conclusions, ie PRIVATE interpretations OF SPIRITUAL Things.

There is now the spiritual man vs the old physical man?

What we KNOW and what we SEE is DUEL.
What others SEE is the physical.
What we WANT others to SEE is the Reflection of What we are Spiritually.
We still have Earthly EYES. We can not YET SEE what God has changed Spiritually....Patiently we WAIT, until all His Works are Accomplished according to His Will, His Order, His Way.

Before salvation, there was no struggle of the natural man against sin,

Yes, there was. OT / Jews under the Law. Gentile men, struggle of Right and Wrong...taking RISKS...hoping to dodge the negative consequences....the hiding, the secrets, the lies upon lies, to hide the corruption. Loved ones having to deal with the others Right and Wrong....Called SIN, Called TRESPASSING.....or not....still balanced between Right and Wrong.
Even BEFORE Salvation, Even BEFORE new spirit in new Heart....men battle with Right in their natural spirit, and Wrong in their Carnal Mind...AND?
We have a WHOLE bucket full of PHARMAKIA to gulp, diagnosed as “depression, mood swings, bipolar, anxiety”, blah, blah....it hinges on the internal conflict between the carnal mind and natural spirit in ones heart.
Consider basic things...example...Woman married, enjoying fine luxuries of husbands income, and YET knowing husband income is because of dirty, underhanded, conniving deals. No problem??? can afford the supply of PHARMAKIA! Not unusual.

but only did as the body commanded, but with salvation there is now the old uncircumcised man still commanding to sin, but the new man of circumcised heart and renewed mind resists to obey the commandment of God? [OUOTE]

Option to Yield to the spiritual heart over the Carnal Mind......ie renewing of the mind, man’s job...
But also mans option to NOT. And continue following Carnal Mind.
** He will NOT lose his Salvation. But he WILL lose “rewards/blessings” he could have had, for making his Carnal Mind, yield to his heart thoughts, transforming his Carnal Mind...to a Spiritual Mind...LIKE Christ’s mind.

The ongoing struggle between the old and the new man continues in this life, until death of the old man's physical body, while the new man sits preserved in heavenly places?

Yes, BUT what sits in heavenly places, is the mans soul & spirit departed out of the old physically dead body, which remains on earth, until it is raised up....in glory.

The OLD natural Heart continues to pump the BLOOD of a man, as long as that man Continues in Bodily Physical Life.

Yes. The natural heart pumps the blood. The BLOOD IS THE LIFE of the natural body. In essence all natural body’s DIE when the BLOOD no longer flows in the body. A “heart beat”, is simply an indicator, the BLOOD has stopped flowing or is flowing.

The old man of the physical body remains alive on earth with the old heart of lust?

It is the old natural spirit in the heart that lusts. It is the Carnal minds thoughts that lusts.
A new spirit in the new heart....does not lust.
A old Carnal Mind can lust...Control it with the new spirit, in new heart...or not....The Consequence for going along with the Carnal Minds thoughts...
The individual’s burden to bear. (Ie, you’re on your own. Cheat on spouse, spouse finds out, may forgive your Trespass, may not, may also exact a consequence, divorce you, boot you out, take your income, lose your children, maybe lose your job....you’ve heard. Consequences (the burden) for that scenario is weighty, and the effects long lasting. But it was your choice, now your burden. THAT act was not a sin. THAT act was a Trespass Against the spouse. People forgive people of Trespasses Against them. God forgives Sin Against Him.

IF Gods Works of Changing a man from Physical to Spiritual confuses you.

Salvation is changing the natural physical man into the new spiritual man, with the new man now born for the first time, and the old man remaining physically alive?

Yes. Salvation is saving the soul. Changing the spirit, is rebirth of the natural spirit. Bodily Physical change comes later, and why we temporarily use Christ Jesus’ risen holy body to DWELL IN.

It’s a mysterious ORDER and WAY, of changing and making a natural man, into a spiritual man. It’s a matter of Believing, Trusting, Knowing....what our natural eyes can not SEE....YET.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[robert derrick]

@robert derrick

Continued ~

It is a NEW HEART, God Puts within that man. The New Heart, IS a Spiritual Heart. The New Heart, IS Filled with Gods Spirit of Truth.



( New Heart, established. Mans “new spirit”, via Gods Spirit.
Christian is an Indication Title. IS a Believer following, and “with” God, and can “leave”....Converted is a Knowing. A man HopIs “with” God Forever. “Gods Spirit IN the man”. Man is living in Christ Jesus’ risen holy body.)

Old Carnal Mind, still functional. DILEMMA for the man.
* Blessing for men to still learn new Knowledge, cipher, calculate, make logical conclusions, about all kinds of things. What to plant, when, why. What to wear, when, why. What to eat, what work to do, blah, blah.
* And ALSO a Curse for men to lean on Carnal Knowledge, REGARDING Spiritual things, God, Jesus, Christ, Heavens, Spirits, etc. Leads to men,
Logically Concluding, making Philosophical Mindful conclusions, ie PRIVATE interpretations OF SPIRITUAL Things.



What we KNOW and what we SEE is DUEL.
What others SEE is the physical.
What we WANT others to SEE is the Reflection of What we are Spiritually.
We still have Earthly EYES. We can not YET SEE what God has changed Spiritually....Patiently we WAIT, until all His Works are Accomplished according to His Will, His Order, His Way.



Yes, there was. OT / Jews under the Law. Gentile men, struggle of Right and Wrong...taking RISKS...hoping to dodge the negative consequences....the hiding, the secrets, the lies upon lies, to hide the corruption. Loved ones having to deal with the others Right and Wrong....Called SIN, Called TRESPASSING.....or not....still balanced between Right and Wrong.
Even BEFORE Salvation, Even BEFORE new spirit in new Heart....men battle with Right in their natural spirit, and Wrong in their Carnal Mind...AND?
We have a WHOLE bucket full of PHARMAKIA to gulp, diagnosed as “depression, mood swings, bipolar, anxiety”, blah, blah....it hinges on the internal conflict between the carnal mind and natural spirit in ones heart.
Consider basic things...example...Woman married, enjoying fine luxuries of husbands income, and YET knowing husband income is because of dirty, underhanded, conniving deals. No problem??? can afford the supply of PHARMAKIA! Not unusual.

Thanks, I haven't studied it all yet, but will and try to answer each point.

In the meantime:

You said:
God was “WITH” men...WHEN men were “WITH” God. When men Left God. God left men...When men were “WITH” God they Followed Gods (commands, laws, precepts)...When men Left God they Followed mans (ways).

Christian is an Indication Title. IS a Believer following, and “with” God, and can “leave”....Converted is a Knowing. A man HopIs “with” God Forever.

You don't agree with unconditional eternal salvation?

When we believe God to obey Him with the heart, we are being saved and born of God with power to become His sons, and if we turn from obeying Him to the former manner of corruption and disobedience, then He also turns His face and Spirit from us.

Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

We ensure our continued fellowship and relationship with God by continuing in His mercy and grace to help obey Him unto the end.

The only thing unconditional about obtaining God's eternal salvation is He unconditionally commands us to love and obey Him with all the heart: there are no exceptions.

 

[robert derrick]

@robert derrick

Continued ~

It is a NEW HEART, God Puts within that man. The New Heart, IS a Spiritual Heart. The New Heart, IS Filled with Gods Spirit of Truth.



( New Heart, established. Mans “new spirit”, via Gods Spirit.
Christian is an Indication Title. IS a Believer following, and “with” God, and can “leave”....Converted is a Knowing. A man HopIs “with” God Forever. “Gods Spirit IN the man”. Man is living in Christ Jesus’ risen holy body.)

Old Carnal Mind, still functional. DILEMMA for the man.
* Blessing for men to still learn new Knowledge, cipher, calculate, make logical conclusions, about all kinds of things. What to plant, when, why. What to wear, when, why. What to eat, what work to do, blah, blah.
* And ALSO a Curse for men to lean on Carnal Knowledge, REGARDING Spiritual things, God, Jesus, Christ, Heavens, Spirits, etc. Leads to men,
Logically Concluding, making Philosophical Mindful conclusions, ie PRIVATE interpretations OF SPIRITUAL Things.



What we KNOW and what we SEE is DUEL.
What others SEE is the physical.
What we WANT others to SEE is the Reflection of What we are Spiritually.
We still have Earthly EYES. We can not YET SEE what God has changed Spiritually....Patiently we WAIT, until all His Works are Accomplished according to His Will, His Order, His Way.



Yes, there was. OT / Jews under the Law. Gentile men, struggle of Right and Wrong...taking RISKS...hoping to dodge the negative consequences....the hiding, the secrets, the lies upon lies, to hide the corruption. Loved ones having to deal with the others Right and Wrong....Called SIN, Called TRESPASSING.....or not....still balanced between Right and Wrong.
Even BEFORE Salvation, Even BEFORE new spirit in new Heart....men battle with Right in their natural spirit, and Wrong in their Carnal Mind...AND?
We have a WHOLE bucket full of PHARMAKIA to gulp, diagnosed as “depression, mood swings, bipolar, anxiety”, blah, blah....it hinges on the internal conflict between the carnal mind and natural spirit in ones heart.
Consider basic things...example...Woman married, enjoying fine luxuries of husbands income, and YET knowing husband income is because of dirty, underhanded, conniving deals. No problem??? can afford the supply of PHARMAKIA! Not unusual.

I have one main objection to the basis of your whole argument.

There is no such thing as a 'natural spirit', and the old man is not the physical body, nor is the heart of a man the blood pump thereof.

The soul is the created spiritual being by God called the hidden man of the heart. Souls are not hidden in the blood pump of a physical body.

Man is the spiritual soul. Man is not the natural body. The soul of man has a spirit, called the spirit of man. The natural body has no spirit called a natural spirit.

There is no such thing as a 'natural spirit' as opposed to a 'spiritual spirit': flesh is flesh, and spirit is spirit.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

There is no 'natural or physical spirit'. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, because the natural body itself has no spirit to be in any spiritual kingdom, whether that of darkness or of Light. Spirit and flesh don't mix.

A natural spirit would be nature's spirit, or spirit of nature, which is old paganism and environmental theology of the spirit of waters and trees. Nor is there an 'animal spirit'.

The spirits of all flesh in Scripture are not 'spirits of flesh': There is no flesh spirit or fleshy natural spirits.

The spirits of all flesh is speaking of how all creatures on earth are created spirits wrapped in flesh by God in the womb:

My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

There is no spiritual difference between any man or woman on earth, in that some have natural spirits and others have spiritual spirits.

we are all created the same spiritual beings by God in the beginning, with the only spiritual difference being the spirit we follow, whether that of the world and error, or that of Christ and the truth.

The old man is not the old natural spirit and physical body remaining on earth upon salvation of the same soul made by God in the beginning.

 

[Taken]

Thanks, I haven't studied it all yet, but will and try to answer each point.

In the meantime:

You said:
God was “WITH” men...WHEN men were “WITH” God. When men Left God. God left men...When men were “WITH” God they Followed Gods (commands, laws, precepts)...When men Left God they Followed mans (ways).

Christian is an Indication Title. IS a Believer following, and “with” God, and can “leave”....Converted is a Knowing. A man HopIs “with” God Forever.

You don't agree with unconditional eternal salvation?

I believe men have opportunity to Learn about the Lord God Almighty...Before they make a commitment, and while they are learning, they are being measures of God Gift of Faith, and the Holy Spirit “WITH” them.
~ there is no commitment there, and men can walk away.

I do believe eternal salvation IS conditional, ON BELIEVING, in ones heart.
I do believe ONCE the commitment is established, it is forever.

We do NO WORKS to become Saved, we do a Service...That service is Heartfully Confessing Belief. Works that glorify God, that person receives rewards.
The simplicity is; We are born in sin. We do not know the Lord God, thus we do not believe in the Lord God. The Bottom line, His greatest desires is that We Heartfully Believe in Him ...if a man did nothing but that...that man would be saved. Not one ritual, Not one falling on ones knees, Not a penny in the offering plate, Not a day in a Church...Just that very basic...and the thief hanging next to Jesus....Is pretty much an example of that scenario.

When we believe God to obey Him with the heart, we are being saved and born of God with power to become His sons,

No, I do not believe that. I would say that is one being enlightened, and tasting, trying, what it is like to learn, believe, receive blessing from God......BEFORE committing. (...a poor analogy, but sort of like dating, getting to know God)...Once a true heartful Commitment is established....NO undoing.
I believe that is what the marriage, divorce, teaching between humans was all about....practicing of sorts. Once committed to God..no divorce.

and if we turn from obeying Him to the former manner of corruption and disobedience, then He also turns His face and Spirit from us.

That would require Gods works to fail, if was was saved and quickened and then unsaved and unquickened....

This is the Scripture about being “enlightened” (hearing, learning) about the Lord God, and “tasting” receiving blessing of the Holy Spirit....and then falling away (which is called falling from faith)....and then see the consequence...yikes..


Heb 6:
[4] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

Sure. That is God “with” that person. Conversion is the Spirit of God “IN” a person, and why they can never fall away.

Greater is he that is IN you than he that is in the world.
His Spirit IN you is why Once Converted, it’s a done deal. Forever.

We ensure our continued fellowship and relationship with God by continuing in His mercy and grace to help obey Him unto the end.

Of course constant relationship with God is good, but lack of constant relationship does not change the status of a saved person, as if he has to do something to KEEP his salvation.

The only thing unconditional about obtaining God's eternal salvation is He unconditionally commands us to love and obey Him with all the heart: there are no exceptions.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[robert derrick]

@robert derrick

Continued ~

It is a NEW HEART, God Puts within that man. The New Heart, IS a Spiritual Heart. The New Heart, IS Filled with Gods Spirit of Truth.



( New Heart, established. Mans “new spirit”, via Gods Spirit.
Christian is an Indication Title. IS a Believer following, and “with” God, and can “leave”....Converted is a Knowing. A man HopIs “with” God Forever. “Gods Spirit IN the man”. Man is living in Christ Jesus’ risen holy body.)

Old Carnal Mind, still functional. DILEMMA for the man.
* Blessing for men to still learn new Knowledge, cipher, calculate, make logical conclusions, about all kinds of things. What to plant, when, why. What to wear, when, why. What to eat, what work to do, blah, blah.
* And ALSO a Curse for men to lean on Carnal Knowledge, REGARDING Spiritual things, God, Jesus, Christ, Heavens, Spirits, etc. Leads to men,
Logically Concluding, making Philosophical Mindful conclusions, ie PRIVATE interpretations OF SPIRITUAL Things.



What we KNOW and what we SEE is DUEL.
What others SEE is the physical.
What we WANT others to SEE is the Reflection of What we are Spiritually.
We still have Earthly EYES. We can not YET SEE what God has changed Spiritually....Patiently we WAIT, until all His Works are Accomplished according to His Will, His Order, His Way.



Yes, there was. OT / Jews under the Law. Gentile men, struggle of Right and Wrong...taking RISKS...hoping to dodge the negative consequences....the hiding, the secrets, the lies upon lies, to hide the corruption. Loved ones having to deal with the others Right and Wrong....Called SIN, Called TRESPASSING.....or not....still balanced between Right and Wrong.
Even BEFORE Salvation, Even BEFORE new spirit in new Heart....men battle with Right in their natural spirit, and Wrong in their Carnal Mind...AND?
We have a WHOLE bucket full of PHARMAKIA to gulp, diagnosed as “depression, mood swings, bipolar, anxiety”, blah, blah....it hinges on the internal conflict between the carnal mind and natural spirit in ones heart.
Consider basic things...example...Woman married, enjoying fine luxuries of husbands income, and YET knowing husband income is because of dirty, underhanded, conniving deals. No problem??? can afford the supply of PHARMAKIA! Not unusual.

You said:
I believe men have opportunity to Learn about the Lord God Almighty...Before they make a commitment, and while they are learning, they are being measures of God Gift of Faith, and the Holy Spirit “WITH” them.
~ there is no commitment there, and men can walk away.

I do believe eternal salvation IS conditional, ON BELIEVING, in ones heart.
I do believe ONCE the commitment is established, it is forever.


Ok. I was just double checking. I have learned much more in detail from you about these things.

But, I do have two last questions about the physical old man and new spiritual man:

1. First a review:

Before salvation there is only the one corrupted heart of lust for all men and women, but with salvation there becomes two hearts for all Christians: one pure given to the new spiritual man, and the remaining old physical heart of lust. As also with the spirit of man: one old natural spirit remaining with the physical body, and the new Spirit of God giving birth to the new spiritual man.

What about the soul of the natural man? Does the natural man yet have a soul? Is the natural man the old dead soul and body of corruption, while the new spiritual man is the alive soul with a pure heart?

2. When saved and the physical body sins, what man is judged for it? the old natural man or the new spiritual man or both?

This should be the last of my questions, and I will respond to your interesting points. Thanks much.

I see that you are much more learned and able to give full detail than most.

As you said, I was missing the whole big picture, but you're helping me to see it as it really is.

 

[Earburner]

Sin is not what man says sin is, but rather sin is what God says sin is in Scripture.

What sin is in Scripture: unrighteousness, ungodliness, transgression of the law of God, Trespassing His commandment, of the devil.

What men say sin is: Issues with the flesh. Natural Proclivities. Bad Habits. Having a bad day.

Those who downgrade sinning against God to occasional 'missteps', are those who continue to sin and trespass against God like the devil, and yet don't want to think of themselves as sinners of the devil and enemies with God:

But God shall wound the head of his enemies, and the hairy scalp of such an one as goeth on still in his trespasses.

Sin is, anything that is LESS THAN the Righteousness of God. The righteousness of the 10C Law, is less than the Righteousness of God.