What is the affect on The Fall and The Atonement, if Adam was not the first human?

[St. SteVen]

I went through your post and picked out a few things to respond to. (after a good night of sleep - coffee in hand)
The things you wrote that contained quotes from me seemed impossible to post replies to. Too much work. - LOL
This is supposed to be fun, right?

Second chance, after death, in the afterlife? And that would be Very troubling, since God Said
I should ( 100% commitment ) believe/live By His Every Pure Word Of Truth, "speaking sound
doctrine" to any who might hear (Titus 2:1) Agree?

Seems like an unfortunate place for a chapter break. Some context would help.

Titus 2:1 NIV
You, however, must teach what is appropriate to sound doctrine.

As opposed to what?

Titus 1:15-16 NIV
To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. 16 They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Is there any consensus about what the "pure Word of truth" even is, or what it means, or how it should be applied?
If we did a forum topic asking what it is, the answers would be all over the place. Would only one poster be correct?
How would we choose? By what standard.

You created a nice soapbox to stand on, but what will you now proclaim?
The more specific, the more divisive. (fine folks will disagree)

How do you balance this with being at peace with all?
(all without exception, or all without distinction?) - LOL

Because of What Saith The Scripture?:

Mat 7:21-23 "Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom
of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in That Day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy Name? and in Thy Name have cast out
devils? and in Thy Name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them,
I never Knew you: Depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Still "dead in sin"? But still hope for second chance? He will Know them later? How is this UR?

Any wood, hay, or stubble allowed in heaven? (1 Corinthians 3:12-15)
If not, what becomes of it? Where does this happen? And when?
Certainly happens individually, correct?

And what if you "got nothin'"?
(saved as one through the flames.

What did Jesus say?

Mark 9:49 NIV
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Which, Of course leads us back to the crux of the matter?:

UR: "If all died in Adam, then all are made alive in Christ.?" contradicts Rev 22:11a, no?
vs

Yes:
"Since all died In Adam, then all ( accepted ) In Christ are made alive." Agrees with Rev 22:11
(Eph 2:5,8; Rom 3:22,30,36, 4:5 (by faith/belief), 4:24, 5:1, 9:30, 10:10, Phil 3:9;
............................................. (Eph 1:12-13 & trust )

The crux of the matter. Yes, yes, yes. (finally) - LOL

I'll say it again. (the expanded version)
All three views of the final judgment are biblical.
They are also in conflict with one another.

That being the case, how can I satisfy your question?

And how can we discard one scripture IN FAVOR of another?

The REAL crux of the matter is the baggage we all carry as preconceptions.
On the forum, everyone is SELLING, but no one is BUYING.
An economist might call this a complete market collapse.

So now, what of UR interpretation?:

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the
obedience of one shall many (interpreted "ALL, without exception"?) be made righteous."

Why, if "shall be made righteous" = "Justified," ignore v. 1?:

Rom 5:1 "Therefore being Justified by faith, we havePeace with God through our LORD Jesus Christ"
This is the One Constant that has kept me for 44 years now. Amen.

Does our ABILITY to have faith END when we enter the afterlife?
Will we be faithLESS in the afterlife, or faithFULL?

"Well done my... hmm... never mind." - LOL

Have learned much in our Great Discussion, once again. Enough questions for now - Be Encouraged and Edified...

Thanks for hanging in there. This is a tough thing to wrap one's head around.
It conflicts with SOME of our religious programming.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

[St. SteVen]

Mutually acceptable! God Commands me to "be at Peace with all men"...

It seems that we are being pulled in many different directions.
But... peace is good. - LOL

Matthew 10:34 NIV
“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Wow. Is this the best we can do?
Scientists are guessing? What they call "research"?
Rejecting the Bible out-of-hand? Do you mean without reason?
The Biblical account cannot be falsified? Say what?
We accept the Biblical account on the basis of trust? Blind faith?
Why do we trust the Bible? (I'm not saying we shouldn't, but why do we?)

Yes, guessing is the best we can do. Sorry to burst your bubble. With regard to origins, we can't know with 100% certainty how the world came to be the way it is. What actually took place? How did things actually come to be the way they are? We weren't there. All a scientist can do is, as you say, is research and look for evidence.

But even then, in order to draw conclusions from what he or she observes, the scientist will draw conclusions based on an assumed cosmology. Consider the study of geology for instance. Geologists fall into two major philosophical schools of thought:
catastrophism vs uniformitarianism. "Uniformitarianism suggests that the geological features of Earth were created in slow incremental changes such as erosion. In contrast, catastrophism states that the Earth has largely been sculpted by sudden, short-lived, violent events. So, this is the key difference between uniformitarianism and catastrophism."

With regard to the Biblical record, I suspect that those who affirm the story of Noah would be inclined to understand the geological record in terms related to catastrophism. Those scientists who believe in Darwinian origins of biology would be inclined to affirm the concept of uniformitarianism, which allows for much greater geological time spans.

Yes, the history of ideas as seen a shift away from divine revelation toward empiricism. And in the process, science has become associated with atheism, even though the substance and basis for science originally came from the Bible and specifically the teachings of Jesus Christ. And, as I say, many today simply reject the Biblical accounts out of hand, i.e. without reason.

When I say that the Biblical account can't be falseified, I mean that science can't prove it one way or the other. Moses states the orgin of the earth as a fact of our existence, but we can't prove that a divine being spoke things into existence.

Yes, we accept divine revelation on the basis of trust. But I wouldn't call this "blind faith." as you put it. We believe the Biblical accounts on the same basis and by the same means that we believe the testimony of trial court witnesses or our parents recollection of how they met each other. We take their word for it because they have proven themselves to be realable sources of knowledge and information. We believe what the Bible says about the origins of the universe because we find that the rest of the Bible speaks truthfully about matters closer to home, e.g. humanity.

 

[Mr E]

Since Jesus died to pay the death penalty for original sin, what happens if you remove the original sinner?

Or to state this another way... How does our view of origins affect our doctrine?

Trying to sort this out in my own mind. Stuck somewhere between science and religion.

Send help! - LOL

This scripture shows that the fate of all humankind rested on the actions of the two Adams.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Is this a spin-off from some other thread discussion? Where do you lay out the premise of Adam not being the first human?

 

[Adam]

Doesn't that confuse the issue?

Because of Adam, all men know sin, because of Jesus, all men will be redeemed of sin.

This speaks of the FIRST Adam and a last Adam, inferring more than one.
The second man is the Lord from heaven, the first man is of the earth.

Doesn't seems as though we can limit Adam to Jesus. Unless I am misunderstanding. Send help. - LOL

Adam, David and Jesus are part of a reincarnative lineage. Before Adam was born, he was known as the angel Michael.

 

[bbyrd009]

Since Jesus died to pay the death penalty for original sin, what happens if you remove the original sinner?

Or to state this another way... How does our view of origins affect our doctrine?

Trying to sort this out in my own mind. Stuck somewhere between science and religion.

Send help! - LOL

This scripture shows that the fate of all humankind rested on the actions of the two Adams.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

you might contemplate Adam and Eve as a reflection of you (divided), in thoughts and emotions perhaps

 

[Behold]

Since Jesus died to pay the death penalty for original sin, what happens if you remove the original sinner?

If you removed the "original sinner" then you've removed Lucifer.
He's the father of it, not Adam.

Adam is the means, whereby sin entered into the human race.
The 2nd Adam, who is Christ Jesus is the means whereby you can be forgiven and restored to eternal spiritual relationship with God who is '"A Spirit".

John 14:6 is the way back.

 

[Mr E]

Thank you so much for the encouragement! May the peace of our Lord be with you, too.

I hear what you're saying, but I don't know that it's possible to not have presuppositions. We all bring something to the text. And, I think the orthodox settled a number of presuppositions very early on. For instance, Irenaeus talks about the Rule of Faith, i.e. an early creedal statement, long before a "canon" of scripture was firmly established. Happily, he also quotes so much from what we know as the canon and lists the vast majority of the books we accept that we know our canon of scripture is very close to what was early accepted as such. But the Rule of Faith was a set of presuppositions they used to determine the canon and interpret those books. It derived more from the oral teachings of the apostles than from what we think of as the NT scriptures. Again, Irenaeus recalls Polycarp comparing what he learned from the Apostle John to the gospels and other books.

I digress, I'm glad my post was helpful, and thank you for the warm welcome!

Welcome Chadrho. Maybe take a moment to introduce yourself in the New Members section sometime. I look forward to hearing your perspectives. Community Welcome Center

 

[St. SteVen]

Where do you lay out the premise of Adam not being the first human?

That is the conclusion of those that accept evolutionary origins.

 

[St. SteVen]

Because of Adam, all men know sin, because of Jesus, all men will be redeemed of sin.


Adam, David and Jesus are part of a reincarnative lineage. Before Adam was born, he was known as the angel Michael.

Reincarnation linage? I'm not familiar with that. It sounds like reincarnation. (for some reason)

 

[bbyrd009]

That is the conclusion of those that accept evolutionary origins.

wellll…Adam is surely a construct anyway—there were no witnesses, after all—but he might also represent humans at a particular stage, say with fully developed prefrontal lobes, or something

 

[St. SteVen]

wellll…Adam is surely a construct anyway—there were no witnesses, after all—but he might also represent humans at a particular stage, say with fully developed prefrontal lobes, or something

What do you make of the genealogies in both OT and NT?

 

[GRACE ambassador]

How does our view of origins affect our doctrine?

Trying to sort this out in my own mind. Stuck somewhere between science and religion.

Sorry to hear; hopefully we can send HELP to get you UNstuck

You really need to get tough with me.

Ok, no time like the present to get on that:

Oh. boy.
I was hoping for a truck load, this is more like a trainload. - LOL

At least you beat the "midnight (special)" DEADLINE by a wee bit "8:17 PM" The next time
I should have my CDL and just bring the LOADED truck (transportation theme) on up to Minneapolis - LOL x 3?

ok, 'peace with all' was a bad paraphrase (off-the-cuff?): Actual Scriptures:

1Ti_2:2 "For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may​

lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty."​

+

Rom 12:18 "If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men."​

You do realize, of course, that your gift is INOP, hasn't 'kicked in' yet?

After reading your post...
It seems to boil down to a concern about whether this UR thing is biblical?...

...The biggest issue for me in that vein is where, and from whom, our Bible came from...

I can dump a bunch of scripture on you, if you like. But I know where that road ends.

Correct, Great analysis, if I may say so; it boils down to are we both "reading the same"
Scriptures? It astounds me HOW 'church-goers' can understand "What God Says" when
the preacher reads from ONE version and the hearers are "trying to follow along" with
other (favorite) version(s), one, few, or even Many.

Did I mention that 32 years ago (my Precious blind daughter's age), I left the religious realm
of lists of "do's and don'ts," traditions, presuppositions, and 'pick and choose' theology?

I humbly believe (but could be wrong) that I have chosen the Correct ["Preserved (By God)
for every generation"] Bible (KJB), and try (but could be in error) to obey God's study Rules
found Therein, and more recently developed This Handling The Word Of Life to
Update/Complete my own treatment of God's Word Of Truth, and to maybe Edify
and Encourage others who may decide they Also want/need HELP with that.

But, as you say, I cannot convince them, only share, and what 'they do' with it is between
'them and God,' Correct?

This looks like a high-stakes game of hide and seek.
Does God play games with our eternal destiny?

Ok, a HIGHER 'crux of the matter' appears. No, NOT God, so it must be the enemy
(more about him in my closing post...) pitting Bible version against version, and, then,
passages/verses against p/vs, Correct?

This may be 'the end of the road' for US, unless...wait for it...unless...thinking...ok...

...unless you make your 'dump [of] a bunch of scripture on' TOP of me, but, they would
have to be from the [mutual concensus of the] KJB. I always have great trouble trying to
process the differences/omissions/additions, [changing doctrines?] of the newer, easier
to understand [as many claim] of the NOT ["Preserved (By God) for every generation"]
versions.

Bold claim! you say? You know me by now = asking the BIG question: Simply, HOW can
new version(s) published 350-400 years later, have been [retroactively?] Preserved By God,
For 'every generation'? Makes no sense, to me, anyway...

What now? An EXTRA homework assignment? You did say "get TOUGH," right?

There is one more criteria for your 'mission impossible' IF you [Mr. Phelps] decide
to continue, which would be to see IF we even agree on the 'beginning' doctrine of
salvation before we get to an agreeable/disagreeable concensus of the 'final' doctrine
of it - What Saith The Scripture [my BSR rule # 1]?:

“Let ALL things be done Decently and In Order!”​

(1 Corinthians 14:40 KJB)​

I apologize to you, and repent - - toward God, IF I have violated this in this discussion
@Chadrho insists I be humble, Correct? ↑ ↑ ?

A) Already agree "ALL are sinners" Correct?

B) God's Requirements for salvation?:

​

1) by "faith PLUS works" Or:​

​

2) By Grace Through faith, apart from ALL works​

​

Wait! WE already agreed on 2? Just double checking, in case of an error in my thinking...

​

C) Then discuss the Differentiation or homogenization of the 'multiple' Judgments?

d) Then UR?

Or, I humbly submit to 'more homework' IF you have a better / more complete / or different
list than these..

However, IF this is 'the end of the [ this will self-Destruct in (unknown) time ] road, that
transported US here, then I do have a closing post, if that is ok with you...

Great discussion, and, may I say, I appreciate your respect for your elder (3 yrs?)...
As always - be well, my friend...

 

[St. SteVen]

there were no witnesses, after all

Say what?
No witnesses to the creation of the first human?
I wonder why? - LOL

 

[Adam]

Reincarnation linage? I'm not familiar with that. It sounds like reincarnation. (for some reason)

By reincarnation lineage I mean that Adam was reincarnated into David, then David was reincarnated into Jesus. (And if there was any other incarnation in between these three, I don't know, it is never stated overtly).

For example, Jesus is called the Son of David, but why is Jesus called the Son of David when he is not descended from David? Joseph was David's descendent, but Jesus is not Joseph's son. In this context, it means a spiritual descendent, a reincarnation.

Also, there are multiple places in the Bible where David is referred to as the Messiah. Not even as a "branch of David", or "like David", but literally, the Messiah being "God's servant David".

Ezekiel 34
23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.

24 And I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the Lord have spoken it.

 

[Adam]

wellll…Adam is surely a construct anyway—there were no witnesses, after all—but he might also represent humans at a particular stage, say with fully developed prefrontal lobes, or something

Consider that in the world Adam was created in, all animals were vegetarians. Adam existed on another spiritual plane from Earth (a plane of earthly paradise), then after he sinned, he incarnated into Earth.

Genesis 3:21
21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

 

[Adam]

Say what?
No witnesses to the creation of the first human?
I wonder why? - LOL

Someone saw it and wrote about it, most likely in a vision, so, we've got dream symbolism going on here. In Bible prophetic symbolism, there is precedent for humans to be represented as animals and spirits/angels to be represented as humans. (This is likely to reflect the nature of spirits/angels as being more rational while humans are more carnal) So Genesis is a likely the story of a spirit/angel who becomes "clothed in animal skins" - or is forced to incarnate on Earth due to sin.

 

[bbyrd009]

What do you make of the genealogies in both OT and NT?

from a sampling of a few it seems like they might be anagrams of a progression that we might witness or even experience? There’s a couple more known ones…the one starting with Adam?

Meaning of names Genealogy of Adam to Jesus: Bible Code. Details part 2.

(For Printing) Meaning of names for the Genealogy of Adam to Jesus.

bible-codes.org

not the link i was looking for

 

[bbyrd009]

Say what?
No witnesses to the creation of the first human?
I wonder why? - LOL

understanding how “the dust of the earth”

might lead to “Adam”

there, now you are a witness

 

[Mr E]

That is the conclusion of those that accept evolutionary origins.

Ah.... I see now. I thought perhaps you were going a different direction with this.