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What is the correct view on genesis

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics Forum' started by Andrew Kind, Dec 27, 2018.

  1. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    I wish I understood that passage better. There was a rabbi who said it was referring to Messiah, and I can't figure out why he said that. I understand it was said about Judah, but that doesn't help me much.

    I think I understand something in this verse though.

    10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah,
    nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come;
    and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.


    The clue I found was in Revelation. It's announced that the Lion of the tribe of Judah is worthy to open the Seals; but then John says the Lamb opens them. I was perplexed when I read that. I starting searching the Bible to see what it said about lions and Judah. When I found that in Genesis, I knew Shiloh meant peace, and it came together. When Peace is come, the Lion becomes the Lamb.

    Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
    Isaiah 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
     
  2. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    VIJ shared with me that this also shows up in the New Testament where Jesus tells them to go fetch the donkey there are two in New Testament also. She says this is representative of the old and new covenant. Also see Isaiah 63
     
  3. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    At the coming of Jesus the Jews could not perform capital punishment, the way I understand. This is why they had to bring him before Pilate.
     
  4. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 21:2-5 KJV
    [2] Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me. [3] And if any man say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them. [4] All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, [5] Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.


    Tecarta Bible
    Was Jesus riding both?
     
  5. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    It was so funny, we were riding in the country one day and out of nowhere there’s a two donkeys walking down the road in front of us. I looked at her with the straitest face I could muster, and said the Lord hath need of them. We laughed so hard I almost had to pull over.
     
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  6. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    Mark 11:1-8 KJV
    [1] And when they came nigh to Jerusalem, unto Bethphage and Bethany, at the mount of Olives, he sendeth forth two of his disciples, [2] And saith unto them, Go your way into the village over against you: and as soon as ye be entered into it, ye shall find a colt tied, whereon never man sat; loose him, and bring him. [3] And if any man say unto you, Why do ye this? say ye that the Lord hath need of him; and straightway he will send him hither. [4] And they went their way, and found the colt tied by the door without in a place where two ways met; and they loose him. [5] And certain of them that stood there said unto them, What do ye, loosing the colt? [6] And they said unto them even as Jesus had commanded: and they let them go. [7] And they brought the colt to Jesus, and cast their garments on him; and he sat upon him. [8] And many spread their garments in the way: and others cut down branches off the trees, and strawed them in the way.

    interestingly in marks account it’s where two ways meet and no man has ever ridden this colt. I say He’s washed his garments
    Tecarta Bible
     
  7. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    I think John has it right when he says:

    John 12:14 And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written,
    15 Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass’s colt.

    First, John tells us things he either saw or heard from the best of sources. The passage from Zechariah is poetic, and Hebrew poetry rather than rhyming often says a thing and then rephrases it with the same meaning. Whoever wrote that part in Matthew did not understand Zechariah it seems and wasn't an eyewitness but relied on what he thought had to be true. The Gospel of Matthew has other passages where the Old Testament is not quoted right and passage which conflict with the other Gospels. Matthew also seems to want to make things more miraculous than the other three Gospels. Compare these two passages -- when did the fig tree wither?

    Matthew 21:17 And he left them, and went out of the city into Bethany; and he lodged there.
    18 Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered.
    19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.
    20 And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!

    I put more credence in Mark's account.

    Mark 11:12 And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry:
    13 and seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.
    14 And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.
    15 And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves;
    16 and would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple.
    17 And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.
    18 And the scribes and chief priests heard it, and sought how they might destroy him: for they feared him, because all the people was astonished at his doctrine.
    19 And when even was come, he went out of the city.
    20 And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.
    21 And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away.


    It's also possible people copied parts of Matthew wrong, and we got the wrong variation while the right one was lost.

    It is also possible that Matthew was originally written in Hebrew with some sections copied from Mark;and then later it was translated back into Greek with all Hebrew copies lost. There is another case in the story about the demons going into the swine. Matthew has 2 men while Mark has 1 man, and other details are slightly different.

    Matthew 8:28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
    29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

    Mark 5:1 And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes.
    2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,


    I don't think it affects the meaning much, but I think Mark has it right. I think too that the colt could be expected not to have had a bridle on while a mature animal would have. I can't find out the significance of it, but it sounds right to me. Suggestions? I have a vague idea, but it's not coming together.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2019
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  8. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    In a way, it can look look like that -- the Jews were trying to establish peace by making that agreement with the Romans -- but they did they cry peace and then find sudden destruction?

    Did the sceptre pass from Judah then? Did Israel get gathered then under Jesus wing?
     
  9. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    Did you have a chance to look at Isaiah 63? There are a lot of parallels here, thought maybe you could give me suggestions?
     
  10. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    I guess that depends on who we see as Israel.
     
  11. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    This is really over my head.. I’ve only been looking a the scripture independently for a couple years.
     
  12. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    I haven't yet. Old Testament prophecy also frequently confuses me. Some I don't understand at all. The parallels often can cast light back and forth. Sometimes what's in the Old Testament helps explain something the New for me; and sometimes it's other way around. If you can find the same pattern or parallel, often you find they are talking about the same thing. I've found that more useful than reading a passage and trying to use logic to figure it out. I love logic, but some things can't be grasped using logic. It's definitely work a study.
     
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  13. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    Luke 19:44 KJV
    [44] And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.


    Tecarta BibleThe account in Luke implies they should have known when Shiloh was to come?
     
  14. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    Ezekiel prophesied about how the sheep of Israel would be scattered.

    Ezekiel 34: 6 My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them.

    Then he says David will be bring them together and be shepherd over them all.

    23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.
    24 And I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the Lord have spoken it.
    25 And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods.
    26 And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in his season; there shall be showers of blessing.
    27 And the tree of the field shall yield her fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase, and they shall be safe in their land, and shall know that I am the Lord, when I have broken the bands of their yoke, and delivered them out of the hand of those that served themselves of them.


    That seems to agree with Revelation where the 144,000 of Israel are all redeemed; and I see the Gentiles in the multitude before the throne (of every nation and so on, also redeemed.

    Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

    I wondered once how many trees there were in Eden. An idea came to mind, seventy -- for the seventy nations. Could that be right? If so, I figured maybe someone before me thought so. I found someone who said seventy and then said the seventy palm trees at Elim meant that too.

    Exodus 15:27 And they came to Elim, where were twelve wells of water, and threescore and ten palm trees: and they encamped there by the waters.

    I see twelve tribes of Israel and seventy nations. Israel was to "water" the nations -- not with water that comes down, but with water that comes up from the earth. The Sanhedrin also had seventy members to show that Israel was supposed to intercede for the nations. The four tassels on their prayer shawls were meant to pray for all people to the four corners of the earth. The four horns on their altar meant the same.

    God knows who the real Israel is and where.

    Amos 9:9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.

    Those who are truly Israel cannot be lost. Thus Paul says all Israel (the true Israel) will be saved. They can be lopped off the Tree of Life, but they will be grafted back on. The way I see it, the Jews cannot find rest until their job is done -- helping redeem the Gentiles. Then they enter together.
     
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  15. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    Some could, some coudn't. The ones chosen to know the time of visitation did know. I think the others had their eyes blinded; and they will remain blinded until all the Gentiles are redeemed. It was necessary to have Israel in the world so they could finish their task. If they had all accepted Jesus, it would have left the Gentiles unredeemed. Paul called it a mystery. It's a rather long read:

    Romans 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10 let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
    11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
    12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
    13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
    14 if by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
    15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
    16 For if the firstfruit beholy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
    17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
    18 boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
    19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
    20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
    21 for if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
    22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
    23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
    24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
    25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
    26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
    27 for this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
    28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
    29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

    The original Israel agreed to it in Eden and again at Sinai when many Gentiles had been added on. According to the flesh, seventy (again) went down into Egypt and 600,000 men came out. If the original Israel was 144,00 in Eden, that means at least 456,000 Gentile souls had already been added or grafted on.
     
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  16. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    Interesting to note also Jesus sends out 70 and also Moses received 70 to aid in the ministry. Jesus say I must forgive 7x70, = 490 is this the number of years Israel didn’t allow the ground to rest?
     
  17. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    I do not know. Right now, I can't even remember where that passage is found.
     
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  18. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    Exodus 23:9-11 KJV
    [9] Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger: for ye know the heart of a stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt. [10] And six years thou shalt sow thy land, and shalt gather in the fruits thereof: [11] But the seventh year thou shalt let it rest and lie still; that the poor of thy people may eat: and what they leave the beasts of the field shall eat. In like manner thou shalt deal with thy vineyard, and with thy oliveyard.


    Tecarta Bible
     
  19. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    Is the earth at rest right now?
     
  20. shnarkle

    shnarkle Active Member

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    Christ was sacrificed from the foundation of the world. The serpent can't be sacrificed before Christ.

    It's the common meaning of the term.



    That would be both

    And yet he's placed right where he was supposed to be regardless of whether he repented or not.


    A distinction with no effective difference. The word "sin" means "to miss the mark", transgress etc.
     
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