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What is the correct view on genesis

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics Forum' started by Andrew Kind, Dec 27, 2018.

  1. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    :D
     
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  2. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    Interesting! Your insertion of the more specific beginning of the gentile turn to God via Jesus I had not heeded or considered in this way. But it does fit also considering who the Samaritans were. They were generally more ignorant of correct biblical details [law of Moses]] than their southern [Jewish] brothers even before the planting of pagans among them by the conquering Assyrians. They had taken hold of an abominable mixture of truth and idolatry [see Judges 17 for example] that makes it almost surprising to see someone with a heart for truth like the woman Jesus met at the well. No matter how dark things seem, there is still some Light.

    Both parts of the natural children of Jacob [northern Israel/Samaria and southern Judah/Judea] had moved a long way from the time just after the death of Solomon when they split. The Jews possessing the scriptures and the temple along with Levites and priests [sons of Aaron] should have had a much stronger connection with God but... I suppose that their own hard necks, greed and flawed traditions along with thinking they were the ones made them nearly immovable... even when confronted by their own Messiah. It makes one consider the problem of having human leaders and in spite of having written scriptures. Does this sound at all like some of the problems seen in modern Christianity today?
     
  3. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

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    What a hodgepodge of doubt upon the credibility of Scripture. Gee, you think (John) got it right? How about God writing thru John. Did He get it right?

    You say, whoever wrote (Matthew)? How about God writing through whoever wrote (Matthew)? Did He understand the book of Zechariah?

    You say you put more credence on (Mark). Why? Because you see it as the Word of God? And what is (Matthew)?

    Vagueness describes you very well. A fog. I have a suggestion. Why don't you throw that Bible you have away, as it cannot be trusted.

    Stranger
     
  4. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    Certainly wouldn’t agree with Stranger’s approach but would have to agree with him on trusting the Word. I would go insane if I had to validate every word in all the many translations and if it didn't line up begin to doubt the Author. Either God speaks, or He doesn’t. Any time there is a contradiction...so far, always, there is something significant there. I’ve yet see a time where God contradicts Himself. Even if I don’t understand ...why He says one thing here and then another there ...I assume He is right. Yes, men wrote it but when the Spirit opens it and speaks; it is pure and not corrupted. Personally I believe God allowed for the mistakes and imperfections of men and used those imperfections to confound and gather pieces by the Spirit turning; the fragments into treasure when the Spirit purifies it. If I spent all my time focused on the imperfections of men; that would be the focus and not listening and hearing His voice but instead listening and hearing imperfection. He either multiplies the bread or He doesn’t. “Give us this day our daily bread”. I’ve gone to atheist sites and read all their proof that the Word of God is riddled with contradictions. It has been in their claimed contradictions ...most are not contradictions at all in: the Word will give more than one witness of a thing. If doubt...see if God gives witness again to validate a thing. Proverbs is a great place to see if God speaks on the matter. concerning Genesis 49:11 Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:

    Obviously God did not do this to a literal “vine” or “choice vine”. Regardless of Mark, Luke, or John variations there are two...the “vine” and “choice vine” where grapes are. Two “His foal” and “His ass’s colt” ...every account that varies gives a little more insight(IMO) Regardless if one is more likely ...it still repeats in the gospels and all the way throughout in saying He would come. It is still remarkable in telling them to go loose the two (regardless of which He rode in on) they both, tied in Genesis were loosed in the New Testament accounts and came in with Him Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

    Regardless if one account isn’t taken seriously...Genesis still asserts both were tied and waiting, even in the beginning, on The King of the Jews.
    Luke 19:37-39 And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen; [38] Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest. [39] And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2019
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  5. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah 10:20
    [20] And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
     
  6. tooldtocare

    tooldtocare Active Member

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    Genesis was first put to print in 1611BC

    Now put yourself in that time frame. A time before the oceans and the American continent had been discovered. Does the information stated below seem a bit out of place for that time frame--?

    The Beginning
    1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
    2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
    5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
    7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so.
    10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.
    11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so.
    12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
    13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.
    16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.
    19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.
    20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.”
    21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
    22 God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.”
    23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.
    24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so.
    26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
    27 So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.
    28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”
    29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.
    31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1&version=NIV

    The time line above has been scientifically proven to be true, life did “evolve” as stated. And this evolving process was put to print in 1611 BC.

    It is clear to me that the authors of Geneses had some help and it wasn’t from some bird tweeting to them from some window sill.
    :)-
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2019
  7. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    Ezekiel 39:17-21
    [17] And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord God ; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood. [18] Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan. [19] And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you. [20] Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord God. [21] And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
    ^the “fat of Bashan”

    ^ NOT animals in the above call to gather to eat til drunken...in “Thus you shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord God” ... “eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.”

    Revelation 19:17-18
    [17] And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; [18] That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

    this is not about animals but in bring down every high and lifted thing exalted above the knowledge of Christ. Colossians 2:14-15 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; [15] And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

    Psalm 74:12-14
    [12] For God is my King of old, working salvation in the midst of the earth. [13] Thou didst divide the sea by thy strength: thou brakest the heads of the dragons in the waters. [14] Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces, and gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness.

    ^ He did it. Man won’t see it in refusing to let go of their expected blood bath awaiting and greatly anticipated.
     
  8. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    So He is riding both.
     
  9. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    We're going in circles, repeating things over and over.
    So who were the "both" in your post? You wrote back in post #188:

    "They were both fooled, but then so was the nachash as well."

    That would be two plus one who were fooled. Who are these three who were fooled?
    Okay.

    A distinction with no effective difference. The word "sin" means "to miss the mark", transgress etc.[/QUOTE]
    There is a distinction in the Law of Moses between sins of ignorance and sins committed knowingly and willfully. The same distinction is made in the New Testament. Jesus certainly drew it.

    If Genesis doesn't use the word "sin," I'm reluctant to use it. I could be accusing them falsely without knowing what I was talking about. I can say they disobeyed -- I feel safe saying that. I can say they made a mistake -- I feel safe with that too. I don't feel safe saying they "sinned." I fear I might become like the great accuser Satan, so I can't say they "sinned." Nor could I say the soldiers at the Crucifixion "sinned." I'd use more moderate language. Jesus didn't use the word "sin" so I prefer not to. He prayed, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."
     
  10. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    Everything you mention is part of the "mystery"
    Paul talked about, is it not, when he said the relationship between Jews and Gentiles was a "mystery." When I read that, I asked what does he mean? What's the mystery? Over time, I began to see how the Old Testament and the Gospels had clues about the mystery. I'd say the mystery is still playing out today, yes. I think John is talking about the same "mystery" here:

    Revelation 10:7 but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

    Then we find:

    15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

    Back to Genesis. Why did God form man out of dust from the four corners of the earth? My answer: so Adam would be like the Gentiles.

    Acts 17:26 and hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

    (Using trees as the symbol, the olive tree God would use had to be compatible with the wild branches that were to be grafted in.)

    So I see the salvation of the Gentiles in Genesis in the detail of the dust from the four corners of the earth. The "mystery" begins early -- at the beginning even.


    We can see how Israel went through so many strange things. Why be surprised then if Christianity has? Sometimes even God's elect go into bondage -- and when they get called out, they bring many others with them.

    The Jews debate whether the "suffering servant" is Messiah or Israel. Christians think it's Jesus only. I think it's both.
     
  11. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    I don't think David's seed can rest until the whole world finds rest. I see David as one of God's servants used to move the whole world forward in God's plan to save every nation, tribe and tongue. Jesus is described as both root and branch of David.
     
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  12. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, I was stumbling along there for a while. Leviticus 25 also discusses it along with the Jubilee. Then there are the seventy weeks of Daniel where 70 x 7 equals 490.

    Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

    Let pass other things for now and try to relate that 490 to the 490 found in Jesus' answer to Peter. There are two words in Hebrew for perfect; actually it's the same word spelled differently -- tmym = 490 -- and with the vowel y tmm = 440.

    The 490 variation is more important. I believe a person could be imperfect in 490 ways. Thus we may need to forgiven him that many times was he corrects his flaws one by one. The Jewish idea of repentance is not quite the same as most Christians. For the Jew, true repentance means someone sees how his sin has injured others and himself as well by damaging his relationships with them. If he sees that, really sees it, he regrets it and will not repeat it in the future. It is a matter for rejoicing then.

    Indeed the word usually translated as "repent" also is translated as "take comfort" as well.

    1Ch 7:22 And Ephraim their father mourned many days, and his brethren came to comfort him.

    Jesus connected repentance with rejoicing.

    Luke 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

    While there is sorrow at first at repentance, that's for the past; and that sorrow turns to gladness, comfort and rejoicing.

    I don't mind if someone injures me and regrets it, then comes to tell me he's learned from it. Most of the time, he may have meant to injure me but didn't. If he did truly injure me, I will have to overlook it; and if he's truly sorry, he'll try to fix it. If he stole money from me, he can't say he sorry and keep the money. But when someone offends against me and repents, I'm happy most of the time (and try to be if I'm not). I was used by God to help bring him one step closer to perfection. It didn't really injure me -- even if someone killed me, so what?

    Peter's question is slightly misguided then. He's not "rejoicing" when people repent. He's saying he's tired of forgiving others. He wasn't seeing how someone could be used by God to help others perceive their errors. He hadn't perceived yet how people can be blessed when others persecute them and do bad things to them. Peter did learn it; and he was willing to be a martyr for Christ, and I believe that witness of his helped bring many to Christ. I think if we could ask Peter, he'd say it was worth it and he was pleased by it.

    Note though if someone keeps offending in the same way again and again, he's not repented fully. He's not learned from his mistakes. The person who says, "I forgive you" to someone like this too many times is sending a wrong message. He should want the other person to see the truth about why his sins are damaging himself and others. I may tell someone I forgive them the first time he does something; but if he does it again and asks for forgiveness, we need to have a conversation about it. "Have you really learned, or do you just want me to say I forgive you because you think I might be angry and want revenge? Or you really sorry, or do you just want to feel I still love you?" It's a struggle with that kind of conversation since I can't read minds or hearts; but my aim in telling someone I forgive him is so he improves and doesn't repeat that mistake. If we can err in 490 ways, I don't want him stuck on just one way. Fix that and move to another mistake that needs fixing.

    Back to the word repent in Hebrew now:

    In Job, I think it's translated wrong.

    Job 42:6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

    I read that cheerfully as, "Wherefore I melt away and find comfort in dust and ashes. The appearance of the LORD in the whirlwind has gladdened him. Earlier, Job said of dust and ashes:

    Job 30:9 He hath cast me into the mire,
    and I am become like dust and ashes.
    20 I cry unto thee, and thou dost not hear me:
    I stand up, and thou regardest me not.
    21 Thou art become cruel to me:


    Man was made of dust, right? Job is worried about that.

    Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

    He has also sat down in ashes.

    Job 2:8 And he took him a potsherd to scrape himself withal; and he sat down among the ashes.

    Job was righteous even perfect (440 version of the spelling), but that was the earthly type of perfection. Was there anything else, or would he return to dust and ashes and that would be the end of him? Elihu ignited the revelation. Elihu is a variation of Elijah. Elijah came first, and then the LORD. I see it as Pentecost -- 50. The 490 variation spelling of perfection isn't used; but I see it by implication and get it by adding the 440 and 50. Job has his answer. He is not "repenting" of sin in the sense of having iniquity to cast off -- how could that be if we're told he was perfect? Rather now he's finding comfort in the dust and ashes. All his worries that filled him melted away. He is content to live life in the mortal body and has no doubt that all will be well when that mortal body returns to dust. He has the answer to his question if man will live again. Pentecost has truly come.

    By the way, I read the book of Job as a prophecy that says something about Israel and the Gentiles. For me, it says something about how Israel and the whole world will reach the perfection of 490.
     
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  13. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    So which is right? Was Jesus riding one or two animals?

    What you say about me seems more true applied to you. Was Jesus riding one or two animals?

    And you don't know what to do with what you read.

    Can you can tell me what words were on the sign above Jesus on the cross? If you can, I may take you and your method of understanding the Bible more seriously. Do you know?

    Matthew 27: 37 and set up over his head his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
    Mark 15:26 And the superscription of his accusation was written over, THE KING OF THE JEWS.
    Luke 23:38 And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
    John 19:19 And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.


    I expect you cannot answer so will respond with more insults. I hope not, but your history suggests you will fling more insults. Maybe it makes you feel good to hurl insults? Who knows? You say the whole Bible is true but can't explain it. When someone else tries to explain what you cannot, you appear resentful or envious. All you can say is it's all true. If you want to believe Jesus rode on one animal and also on two, go ahead.

    Tell us what was written above Jesus on the cross. Share your great wisdom and understanding about the Bible with us.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2019
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  14. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    And. . . he is also riding only one???
     
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  15. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    I see... also in the Old Testament the locust have no king, but in revelation they suddenly have a king
     
  16. shnarkle

    shnarkle Active Member

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    I don't understand why you are asking this question. What other people are we talking about other than Adam, Eve, and the naXash?


    We've already covered this. No one is denying Eve was seduced, or deceived. We both agree that Adam wasn't deceived, but the fact remains they both screwed up. Call it whatever you want and make whatever insignificant distinctions you please, the effective result was the same: death. If you want to look at intentional and unintentional sin, then Adam's sin, transgression, etc. cannot be covered by Christ's sacrifice. Perhaps you might have some argument suggesting Satan's sacrifice might cover Adam?

    I understand. There's a lot of baggage associated with the term today.
     
  17. shnarkle

    shnarkle Active Member

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    "behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.” The conjunction "and" doesn't belong in the translation. It isn't in the Hebrew manuscripts. There is only one animal. Matthew was probably reading from a bad copy of Zechariah.
    Some copies simply don't have the conjunction which shows it to be poetic. Actually if one looks at it in context, vss. 9:9 to 11:4 is all poetic.
     
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  18. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    Let me look those passages up.

    Proverbs 30:24 There be four things which are little upon the earth,
    but they are exceeding wise:
    25 the ants are a people not strong,
    yet they prepare their meat in the summer;
    26 the conies are but a feeble folk,
    yet make they their houses in the rocks;
    27 the locusts have no king,
    yet go they forth all of them by bands;
    28 the spider taketh hold with her hands,
    and is in kings’ palaces.

    Revelation 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.


    I can tell you what I believe. Insects do not have individual minds. One mind inhabits several bodies, so they act as one. I've been taught that, and I believe it. One day I was reaching out of my car and got my head in the middle of several butterflies. I used to have what you could call mystical experiences -- I had one. It completely dazed me. I could experience how they were thinking, but it made no sense to me. I'm used to my awareness where one mind runs one body. Nevertheless it gave me insight into the Mind of Christ which can operate in the minds of so many people. It's above my way of understanding.

    In that respect, we could say ants and locusts are wise, perhaps wiser than people. We as people want to run on only our own minds too much and not make a connection with the Mind of Christ so we can operate in harmony.

    The locusts in Revelation are spiritual locusts of course; but they operate the same way. They come out of the smoke of the bottomless pit, and their king is depicted as being the same pit. I would say he is the intelligence or mind that governs them all.
     
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  19. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    I remained confused by that "both." When you didn't clear it up, I remain confused. I'm assuming now you wrote a little carelessly referring to Adam and Eve as "both" being fooled. That's okay, but I wish you would have cleared it up earlier so we didn't get entangled by it. Now I know you don't believe Adam and Eve were "both" deceived, and we can stop talking about that "both" since I know it was an honest mistake.

    Adam's mistake could be corrected if he repented. However that would not fix the problem with his offspring who find themselves in the same condition he found himself in. It remained then for Jesus to correct that situation. We did not sin or even make the same mistake that Adam and Eve made; but we are still subject to death. That needed to be corrected, and I believe Jesus did it.

    If he was the covering cherub originally, that would suggest it. If we understand that Jesus came to replace Satan's rule, that also suggests it. If Satan remains the "prince of the air," we see he needs to be replaced there. He obviously had some power given to him and used it wrongly. He needs replaced.
    Yes, there is. People can get annoyed if you use the word. They respond better if you talk about mistakes.
     
  20. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    I think it has to be poetic; and people who were used to Hebrew poetry wouldn't think he meant two. Besides how could one person ride two animals?
     
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