What is the gospel?

[Mungo]

You will not accept anything I show so I have two questions for you?

Who paid for your sins?

Do you believe that the shed blood of Jesus on the cross has paid for your sins and the sins of the whole world?

1 John 2:2
2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
NKJV

Perhaps you do not know what the word ""propitiation" means. Look it up.

Illogical questions since you haven't explained what you mean by "pay for our sins".

And yes, I do understand what propitiation means.

 

[H. Richard]

Illogical questions since you haven't explained what you mean by "pay for our sins".

And yes, I do understand what propitiation means.

I hope you will understand in the future.

 

[Mungo]

I hope you will understand in the future.

I understand now.

But it seems you do not know what you mean by "pay for our sins".

 

[kerwin]

So if you shared the gospel with an unbeliever what would it be?

When it is done in Scripture the appeal differs according to the situation.

I am not completely trained so I cannot give any details beyond you share it as you are carried along by the Spirit to do.

 

[skypair]

Skypair,

Context here points to repentance from ignorance. This is qualified with verse 31 where Jesus is presented as the person who they were to look to to no longer be ignorant.

Excellent observation! Yes! There is a repentance from ignorance .. then there is a repentance from sin and sin nature by prayer to God for salvation .. and then there is a repentance from sinful behavior where we quit a specific sin (2Cor 7:9-11). Because God wants us to be blameless body, soul, and spirit (1Thes 5:23). It is wonderful that you know these already!

Also there's this: Knowledge (what you just said) + belief + application (in this case, repentance) = FAITH! It's a basic doctrine of the Bible.

...that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, - Acts 17:27

This verse says that they (men) should or ought to seek God, not that they actually do.

Actually, it's instinctive, justaname. You've maybe heard of the "hole in your heart that ONLY God can fill?" Well, your "heart" is part of your soul. Another part is your conscience which, when you sin, actually breaks your relationship with God so that, Ezek 18:20, "the soul that sins, it shall surely die." And now you need a Savior .. like Job did.


Only faith in the person and work of this man, Jesus Christ, will cover their sin before God.[/QUOTE]Excellent again. And now that we know that knowledge (hearing the gospel) + belief (we hope it is true but have no evidence yet) + application (Acts 2:38 -- repenting to God who gives us forgiveness in our conscience and His Holy Spirit to reign in our hearts - a new nature) = Faith in Christ.

This is repentance in the context of the gospel.

I think you've got it. Isn't this what you meant?

skypair

 

[H. Richard]

I understand now.

But it seems you do not know what you mean by "pay for our sins".

***
What does "propitiation" mean to you? -- If you do not give an answer to this question I see no reason to discuse anything with you because you are not giving the glory for our salvation to the one who purchased it for us.

Do you believe that Jesus' shed blood on the cross has PAID for your sins?

If not then why did Jesus have to shed His blood on a cross?

1 Cor 15:3
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
NKJV

Gal 1:4
4 who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,
NKJV

Heb 1:3
3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
NKJV

1 Peter 2:24
24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness — by whose stripes you were healed.
NKJV

 

[Mungo]

***
What does "propitiation" mean to you? -- If you do not give an answer to this question I see no reason to discuse anything with you because you are not giving the glory for our salvation to the one who purchased it for us.

Do you believe that Jesus' shed blood on the cross has PAID for your sins?

If not then why did Jesus have to shed His blood on a cross?

1 Cor 15:3
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
NKJV

Gal 1:4
4 who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,
NKJV

Heb 1:3
3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
NKJV

1 Peter 2:24
24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness — by whose stripes you were healed.
NKJV

I asked you a question first and you keep avoiding answering it.

You ask "Do you believe that Jesus' shed blood on the cross has PAID for your sins?"
How can I answer that when you refuse to say what you mean by "PAID for your sins"?

And again, none of the scriptures you quote mention a payment.

You originally asked "If a person does not believe Jesus died and shed His blood on a cross to pay for our sins of the flesh and then raised from the dead then that person is servicing religion in vain."
So again, what do you mean by "pay for our sins"?

 

[H. Richard]

I asked you a question first and you keep avoiding answering it.

You ask "Do you believe that Jesus' shed blood on the cross has PAID for your sins?"
How can I answer that when you refuse to say what you mean by "PAID for your sins"?

And again, none of the scriptures you quote mention a payment.

You originally asked "If a person does not believe Jesus died and shed His blood on a cross to pay for our sins of the flesh and then raised from the dead then that person is servicing religion in vain."
So again, what do you mean by "pay for our sins"?

Bye

 

[Mungo]

Bye

Bye.

Do come back when you remember what you meant "by pay for our sins"

 

[FHII]

Bye.

Do come back when you remember what you meant "by pay for our sins"

"What do you mean by Jesus paid for our sins?"

That is a pretty stupid question. Does anyone hear believe Jesus didn't pay for our sins (that his death was payment for our sins... Or any variation thereof)?

Or are you looking for the exact phrase that says, "Jesus paid for our sins"?

I got at least six that says he did. But I'm pretty sure this question wasn't asked in hopes an answer would come up.

I believe it was asked just to make an arguement.

 

[Mungo]

"What do you mean by Jesus paid for our sins?"

That is a pretty stupid question. Does anyone hear believe Jesus didn't pay for our sins (that his death was payment for our sins... Or any variation thereof)?

Or are you looking for the exact phrase that says, "Jesus paid for our sins"?

I got at least six that says he did. But I'm pretty sure this question wasn't asked in hopes an answer would come up.

I believe it was asked just to make an arguement.

It seems you do not know either.

 

[H. Richard]

Bye.

Do come back when you remember what you meant "by pay for our sins"

Jesus paid for our sins when He shed His blood on the cross. His blood purchased salvation for those that have faith in His work on the cross.

Purchased = to obtain for money or by “””paying a price“””: To buy. To obtain at a cost or sacrifice, The act of buying.

Acts 20:28
28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He PURCHASED with His own blood.
NKJV

Eph 1:14
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the PURCHASED possession, to the praise of His glory.
NKJV

True children of God know that Jesus paid for their sins. If He did not pay for your sins then you will be before God at the white throne judgement because you have no other payment for your sins.

If Jesus did not pay for the sins of mankind then the Christian religion is just like all of the Greek and Roman religions to the gods they thought existed.

True Christianity is NOT what man does for God but what God has done for mankind.. This fact is what sets true Christianity above the made up gods of this world.

I agree that your intent was not to get an answer but to argue.

 

[Mungo]

Jesus paid for our sins when He shed His blood on the cross. His blood purchased salvation for those that have faith in His work on the cross.

Purchased = to obtain for money or by “””paying a price“””: To buy. To obtain at a cost or sacrifice, The act of buying.

Acts 20:28
28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He PURCHASED with His own blood.
NKJV

Eph 1:14
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the PURCHASED possession, to the praise of His glory.
NKJV

True children of God know that Jesus paid for their sins. If He did not pay for your sins then you will be before God at the white throne judgement because you have no other payment for your sins.

If Jesus did not pay for the sins of mankind then the Christian religion is just like all of the Greek and Roman religions to the gods they thought existed.

True Christianity is NOT what man does for God but what God has done for mankind.. This fact is what sets true Christianity above the made up gods of this world.

I agree that your intent was not to get an answer but to argue.

Acts 20:28
Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God[a] which he obtained with the blood of his own Son. (RSV)

Eph 1:14
which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory (RSV)

I guess it depends on wjhich translation you use.

However since you think I am only here to argue I will not pursue it.

 

[H. Richard]

Acts 20:28
Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God[a] which he obtained with the blood of his own Son. (RSV)

Eph 1:14
which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory (RSV)

I guess it depends on wjhich translation you use.

However since you think I am only here to argue I will not pursue it.

**
What you can't see is that the true church is spiritual, not physical. The true church is made up of His body in which we are members of that body.

You won't pursue it because you lost the arguement, Jesus did indeed purchase our salvation by paying for our sins with His shed blood on a cross.

 

[Mungo]

**


You won't pursue it because you lost the arguement,

OK, let's continue.

We have a difference between the NKJV and the RSV. Which is correct?

'Paid' and 'Purchase' is very commercial language involving a buyer and a seller.

You said "The gospel is what Jesus did on the cross, on our behalf, to pay for our sins of the flesh."

How did Jesus buy these sins from us?

 

[FHII]

1 Corinthians 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

1 Corinthians 7:23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
1 Peter 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Galatians 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Plenty of verses that state he paid for our sins.

 

[Mungo]

1 Corinthians 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

1 Corinthians 7:23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
1 Peter 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Galatians 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Plenty of verses that state he paid for our sins.

Actually none of them do. But I guess we are going nowhere with this.

 

[justaname]

skypair,

The hole in the heart analogy does not convince me, I prefer scriptural references. Paul references Scripture in Romans, none seek after God, no not one. This is rather plain language.

Yet I think we are in agreement from the rest of your post.

By turning to God in faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ we are repenting, yet it is by God through His grace and mercy that we are saved. Repentance from sin is the action of the believer in cooperation with God, not for salvation, rather it is the work and person of the Holy Spirit that enables and convicts the believer. A faith without works is dead just as works without faith will not save. Faith is the vital and initial step in salvation, where walking in the Spirit can only happen once we have the Spirit.

Not by works so no man may boast.

 

[FHII]

Actually none of them do. But I guess we are going nowhere with this.

Really? Cause they talk an awful lot about Jesus paying the price.

Serious question. I really want to know.... What do Catholics believe Jesus's death and resurrection did?

 

[skypair]

The hole in the heart analogy does not convince me, I prefer scriptural references. Paul references Scripture in Romans, none seek after God, no not one. This is rather plain language.

Yet I think we are in agreement from the rest of your post.

By turning to God in faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ we are repenting, yet it is by God through His grace and mercy that we are saved. Repentance from sin is the action of the believer in cooperation with God, not for salvation, rather it is the work and person of the Holy Spirit that enables and convicts the believer. A faith without works is dead just as works without faith will not save. Faith is the vital and initial step in salvation, where walking in the Spirit can only happen once we have the Spirit.

Not by works so no man may boast.

OK, how about Acts 17:26 — God "has made of one blood all men … That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel for Him though He be not far from every one of us." Or Ecc 3:11 — "God has put eternity in their hearts…" .. in their deepest of desires.

Meanwhile, when Paul speaks of it in Ro 3:10-12, he is citing David in Psa 14:1-2 talking about Gen 6:5. In that passage, Moses was talking about the "sons of men." However, there was a whole line of people from Seth to Noah called in Enos "sons of God." (Gen 4:25)

Regarding repentance, no one is going to repent who doesn't believe .. and no one is going to have faith (really trust God) until they repent and receive the promises of God (until they have proven to themselves that He can be trusted for what He promises) — forgiveness of the soul, justification, regeneration, sanctification of the indwelling Spirit, etc. by which we KNOW that we are the "sons of God."

skypair