Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
You must be born of the spirit first.
Otherwise, You have the flesh waring with the flesh, Only the flesh thinks it is the spirit..
What is the Kingdom of God?
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Otherwise, You have the flesh waring with the flesh, Only the flesh thinks it is the spirit..
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Yes, I agree
Religious people like you certainly have a risk of being like them,
Of course, You have to be part of a true church to even get as far as they were
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Amen.
People who are delivered to Christ for judgment are delivered because of Pride, in this they refused to recieve Christ in faith.. and because of their unbelief, remained in a condemned state
This post begs the question. Were you once homeless? We can take a physical condition and misapply it to a spiritual condition. One can be poor in spirit without the need to beg for the necessities of life. This is not about a physical condition.
In Hebrew the word for poor is also the word (ana) for humble or lowly. As in...your king comes to you, lowly (ani) and riding on a donkey So then the one with a lowly spirit is one who is not self-interested. Actually, disinterested. Not looking for self-gratification...not haughty or high-minded. Not looking for advantage. Not competitive. Not scheming and certainly not presumptuous or assuming something lofty for themselves.
Johann
Well-Known Member
Ol Epi-
In recent years, New Testament theologians have discussed and debated the meaning of pistis christou. There is no doubt that the Bible calls us to put our faith in Christ’s faithfulness for our salvation. Still, when it comes to specific passages, the phrase pistis christou is ambiguous. Should this phrase be translated as “faith in Christ” or the “faithfulness of Christ”?
The discussion was reignited thirty years ago with Richard Hays proposing that the translation “faithfulness of Christ” best represents the Apostle Paul’s doctrine of “participation in Christ”. To believe in Christ is to share in his faithfulness. Those who disagree with Hays worry that pressing the “faithfulness of Christ” interpretation could downplay Paul’s emphasis on the necessity of human faith as the response to the gospel.
The debate transcends denominational categories and theological camps. New Perspective proponent N.T. Wright prefers “faithfulness of Christ” while Wright’s NP counterpart, James D.G. Dunn chooses “faith in Christ.” There is a spectrum of opinion on the subject from all different directions.
For several years now, I’ve been mulling over this discussion, seeking clarity as to what Paul intended to communicate. Though I was never 100% sure of either option, I was initially attracted to the “faithfulness of Christ” translation for several reasons that I found compelling:
1. Translating pistis christou as “faithfulness of Christ” avoids repetition in key passages.
Romans 3:21-22 sounds odd if translated as “- that is, God’s righteousness through trust in Jesus Christ, to all who trust.” Could it be that Paul’s intention was “God’s righteousness through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ, to all who believe”?
Here’s a similar occurrence in Galatians 2:16: “And we have trusted in Christ Jesus so that we might be justified by trust in Christ and not by works of the law.” The repetition is avoided if understood as “And we have believed in Christ Jesus so that we might be justified by the faithfulness of Christ and not by works of the law.”
2. Translating pistis christou as “faithfulness of Christ” is theologically attractive.
The theme of “union with Christ” is a powerful one in Pauline theology, and it makes good sense of a number of passages. For example, the KJV translates Galatians 2:20 with the subjective genitive: “The life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.”
When incorporated into Reformation categories of theology, “faithfulness of Christ” bolsters support for the doctrine of imputation. “We are justified by the faithfulness of Christ (his perfect obedience to the Father’s will, his faithfulness unto death on behalf of his covenant people).”
Philippians 3:9 seems to put more emphasis on Christ’s faithfulness, rather than our faith, as the means of supplying our needed righteousness. “Not having a righteousness of my own from the law, but one that is through the faithfulness of Christ – the righteousness from God based on faith.” Anything that appears to give more glory to Christ is attractive to me.
3. The juxtaposition of Israel’s unfaithfulness (works of the law) and Christ’s faithfulness (through his death) provides a compelling interpretation of the key passages in Galatians.
Ardel Caneday writes: “In Galatians, Paul’s argument features Christ Jesus over against Torah, with Torah in a servant role to Christ, as preparatory for Christ who has now come. Paul’s antithetical placement of pistis christou with “works of the law” / “law” placards the faithfulness of Christ Jesus who accomplishes what the Law could not.”
For a while, I leaned toward the “faithfulness of Christ” view, primarily because the reasons listed above. Still, despite the attraction of that translation, I have recently shifted in the other direction. Today, I am convinced that the New Testament authors intended pistis christou to refer to “faith in Christ” rather than the faithfulness of Christ. Here are the reasons that swayed me the other way:
1. None of the early church fathers or early Greek readers give a subjective genitive reading of pistis christou. In fact, the discussion doesn’t even come up.
This reason is the most compelling to me. As a fluent Romanian speaker, I’ve observed quirky grammatical constructions that could possibly mean two or more things within the flow of the language. If Romanians, however, hear those grammatical constructions in only one way, then I know that I’m correct in translating the ambiguous phrase according to its unambiguous meaning in its original language and the receptor language. The same principle applies to native Greek speakers.
Barry Matlock writes: “It is not that the subjective genitive reading is explicitly rejected among early Greek readers… but rather that no awareness is shown of this option nor indeed of any problem, and so the objective is read without polemic or apology. Silence can be very eloquent, and here it fairly sings.”
2. The “repetition” problem isn’t as big a problem as it first appears.
In Rom. 3:21-22, Paul probably intends to place the emphasis on the “all”: -that is, God’s righteousness through trust in Jesus Christ, to all who trust.
It is also likely that Paul uses repetition intentionally. In an oral culture, this is a common technique at getting across one’s point.
3. Grammatically, there are other places where the genitive refers to Christ as the object.
In Philippians 3:8, Jesus Christ is described as the object of knowledge. In 1 Thessalonians, he is described as the object of hope. In both these cases, it is clear from the context that Paul is not talking about Christ’s knowledge or Christ’s hope. There is no grammatical reason why the same can’t be true of pistis christou.
4. We should not do exegesis with a bias toward “what is theologically attractive.”
Though I love the emphasis the “faithfulness of Christ” view places on Christ’s obedience, I can’t let my exegesis be driven by what appears to support my theological position. The key issue is “what did the author intend to communicate?”, not “how does this boost what I already believe?”
Regarding my thoughts above on Christ’s faithfulness to the covenant, I should reiterate that Paul’s emphasis on “faith in Christ” does not undermine the truth that God is the One doing the saving.
Michael Bird writes: “Faith in Christ means entrusting ourselves to the event of the gospel, which includes the theocentric act of deliverance wrought by God in Jesus which includes his coming, faithfulness, death, and resurrection. Thus, I would say that Jesus’ faithfulness is implied not in the noun pistis but in christos.”
The more I study, the more I am convinced that pistis christou should be translated “faith in Christ.” What about you? Have you considered this debate? Which way do you lean?
(For more information on this debate, I recommend reading The Faith of Jesus Christ: Exegetical, Biblical, and Theological Studies. Also of interest, a post from Collin Hansen that summarizes the views of several New Testament scholars.)
Just some friendly advice-Jesus is not "faithing" it for me-I need to constantly yield and place MY faith-given by God in Christ-IN Him-Sounds like Calvinism gone wrong, putting the cart BEFORE the horse.
Johann
Well-Known Member
THE FAITH (NT) -- from Titus 1:1
The noun has no definite article; therefore, it could refer to
1. one's personal trust in Christ
2. faithful living (OT sense)
3. the body of Christian doctrine (with the article, cf. Acts 6:7; 18:8; 14:22; Gal. 1:23; 3:23; 6:10; Phil. 1:27; Jude 3,20)
Paul's mission was either to
1. stimulate the faith of those already saved
2. bring those elect from eternity into personal faith ("calling out the called")
Both are necessary, but which is being emphasized in this context (i.e., Titus 1:1) is uncertain.
Paul uses kata several times in the opening chapter.
1. according to faith, Titus 1:1
2. according to piety, Titus 1:1
3. according to the command, Titus 1:3
4. according to common faith, Titus 1:4
5. according to appoint, Titus 1:5 (compound word)
6. according to the teaching, Titus 1:9
Obviously there is a standard of truth and conduct (cf. Titus 3:5,7).
D. Its NT usage
The term "believe" is from the Greek verb pisteuō or noun pistis, which is translated into English as "believe," "faith," or "trust." For example, the noun does not occur in the Gospel of John, but the verb is used often. In John 2:23-25 there is uncertainty as to the genuineness of the crowd's commitment to Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah. Other examples of this superficial use of the term "believe" are in John 8:31-59 and Acts 8:13, 18-24. True biblical faith is more than an initial response. It must be followed by a process of discipleship (cf. Matt. 13:20-23,31-32; 28:19-20).
E. Its use with prepositions
1. eis means "into." This unique construction emphasizes believers putting their trust/faith in Jesus
a. into His name (John 1:12; 2:23; 3:18; 1 John 5:13)
b. into Him (John 2:11; 3:15,18; 4:39; 6:40; 7:5,31,39,48; 8:30; 9:36; 10:42; 11:45,48; 12:37,42; Matt. 18:6; Acts 10:43; Phil. 1:29; 1 Pet. 1:8)
c. into Me (John 6:35; 7:38; 11:25,26; 12:44,46; 14:1,12; 16:9; 17:20)
d. into the Son (John 3:36; 9:35; 1 John 5:10)
e. into Jesus (John 12:11; Acts 19:4; Gal. 2:16)
f. into Light (John 12:36)
g. into God (John 14:1)
2. ev means "in" as in John 3:15; Mark 1:15; Acts 5:14
3. epi means "in" or "upon," as in Matt. 27:42; Acts 9:42; 11:17; 16:31; 22:19; Rom. 4:5,24; 9:33; 10:11; 1 Tim. 1:16; 1 Pet. 2:6
4. the dative case with no preposition as in John 4:50; Gal. 3:6; Acts 18:8; 27:25; 1 John 3:23; 5:10
5. hoti, which means "believe that," gives content as to what to believe
a. Jesus is the Holy One of God (John 6:69)
b. Jesus is the I Am (John 8:24)
c. Jesus is in the Father and the Father is in Him (John 10:38)
d. Jesus is the Messiah (John 11:27; 20:31)
e. Jesus is the Son of God (John 11:27; 20:31)
f. Jesus was sent by the Father (John 11:42; 17:8,21)
g. Jesus is one with the Father (John 14:10-11)
h. Jesus came from the Father (John 16:27,30)
i. Jesus identified Himself in the covenant name of the Father, "I Am" (John 8:24; 13:19)
j. We will live with Him (Rom. 6:8)
k. Jesus died and rose again (1 Thess. 4:14)
See why it is Imperative to rightly cutting straight the D'varim of God?
Johann
Well-Known Member
Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:13 ὃς hos|G3739|RelPro-NMS|who ἐρρύσατο errysato|G4506|V-AIM-3S|has delivered ἡμᾶς hēmas|G1473|PPro-A1P|us ἐκ ek|G1537|Prep|from τῆς tēs|G3588|Art-GFS|the ἐξουσίας exousias|G1849|N-GFS|dominion τοῦ tou|G3588|Art-GNS|- σκότους skotous|G4655|N-GNS|of darkness καὶ kai|G2532|Conj|and μετέστησεν metestēsen|G3179|V-AIA-3S|transferred [us] εἰς eis|G1519|Prep|into τὴν tēn|G3588|Art-AFS|the βασιλείαν basileian|G932|N-AFS|kingdom τοῦ tou|G3588|Art-GMS|of the Υἱοῦ Huiou|G5207|N-GMS|Son τῆς tēs|G3588|Art-GFS|- ἀγάπης agapēs|G26|N-GFS|beloved αὐτοῦ, autou|G846|PPro-GM3S|of Him,
We have the "eternal reality NOW" @Episkopos
Verb - Aorist Indicative Active - 3rd Person Singular
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:13 ὃς hos|G3739|RelPro-NMS|who ἐρρύσατο errysato|G4506|V-AIM-3S|has delivered ἡμᾶς hēmas|G1473|PPro-A1P|us ἐκ ek|G1537|Prep|from τῆς tēs|G3588|Art-GFS|the ἐξουσίας exousias|G1849|N-GFS|dominion τοῦ tou|G3588|Art-GNS|- σκότους skotous|G4655|N-GNS|of darkness καὶ kai|G2532|Conj|and μετέστησεν metestēsen|G3179|V-AIA-3S|transferred [us] εἰς eis|G1519|Prep|into τὴν tēn|G3588|Art-AFS|the βασιλείαν basileian|G932|N-AFS|kingdom τοῦ tou|G3588|Art-GMS|of the Υἱοῦ Huiou|G5207|N-GMS|Son τῆς tēs|G3588|Art-GFS|- ἀγάπης agapēs|G26|N-GFS|beloved αὐτοῦ, autou|G846|PPro-GM3S|of Him,
We have the "eternal reality NOW" @Episkopos
Verb - Aorist Indicative Active - 3rd Person Singular
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
You did what most people do. And did not look at the passage and study the word.
Interesting that you use the hebrew word found in Zech 9 to try to interpret a hebrew word Jesus used in Matt 1
Its also interesting the hebrew word means Humble, overwhelmed by want, Wretched, poor Unfortunate
But lets look at the greek word used.
ptochoi - Thoroughly frightened, To cower down or Hide in fear, A beggar, Helpless, Powerless, Dependent on others for support.
penes - (2 cor 9: 9 - He has given to the poor) has a different meaning, This is a person who is poor. But he works for his bread, He is a day laborer,
what we need to notice is the second person is able to work, he can take care of himself, he is not, as in the first defenition, totally helpless, bankrupt, He is not hiding in fear or cowering down (as the tax collector)
Unless your bankrupt. You will not come to Christ, and in essence will not enter the kingdom. Because you can still work,, He still labors daily in hopes that his needs will be met..
Johann
Well-Known Member
Johann
Well-Known Member
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
I am beginning to see that he just wants to make fun of everything
I see the faith OF Christ as Christ-faith....or else Christlike faith.
I have trouble so often with how words in the bible are translated willy-nilly...to make it more readable for the common man. But so often the meaning is lost.
The faith of Christ
Christ-faith
We are to go from faith to (into) Faith.
From what faith? Ours. Into what kind of faith? His.
How is this possible? By walking in the same kingdom realm as He did...while we abide in Him. We see with His eyes, love with His heart, to love as He loved. Thus fulfilling His commandment.
Johann
Well-Known Member
But Christ is not "faithing" it for us-I am familiar with the prepositions and Koine Greek, Syntax and grammar.
Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
By the way-which Bible translation are you using?
Those that enter into the Kingdom is thlipsis and a life filled with persecutions and hardship.
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Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
You can not walk in the same kingdom he is. Unless you are saved.
No one could enter the holy of holy's without the shedding of blood in the law.
We can not enter Gods presence unless we are born of Him, If our sin is still unpaid for. We can not enter the throne of grace..
Johann
Well-Known Member
Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
When did this happen brother?
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
It happened at the moment we were born again, Passed from death to life. was adopted as his son or daughter. was justified.. Was redeemed by the blood. and were sealed by the spirit
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Mr E has no humor..
I know what humor is. Mocking people is not humor.
Although I know many Christians believe it is humor.. They usually gather around in packs..
In your opinion, which I definitely disagree with.
And please don’t get me started on “ packs”
If we look at Gal. 2:16...we see a direct comparison between...Pistis Christou ...Christ-faith...and ergon nomos, law-works, or works of the law.
The works belong to the law...although we can adopt them. Law-works
The faith belongs to Christ...although we can walk IN Him (to walk as He walked). Christ-faith
"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith OF Jesus Christ, even we have believed INTO (eis) Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith of Christ (Pistis Christou) and not by the works of the law (ergon nomos); for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified." Gal. 2:16
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