What is the meaning of Grace, according to the Bible?

[Eternally Grateful]

But faith DOES earn you salvation.
It is by faith ... Eph 2:8

Using the word earn is the issue.

I can not earn salvation because I trust God. thats why Paul in ephesians says it is not of ourselves. not of works. lest we boast. it is by grace through faith.

And jesus said it is the work of God we believe. God draws us, He gives us the means to trust him. What we do with that is what seperates the saved from the lost.

He who believes is not condemned, He who does not believe is condemned already

Through faith means it is the method...
a means is a method.

When you had your child a gift. and they recieve it because they trust you.

they did not earn that gift because they recieved it. YOu paid for it with your money, you did the work that provided the gift..

Its no different with the gift of life. Jesus paid for it on the cross. We have to recieve it.. We will only recieve it if we trust him, if we do not. we will not recieve it.

later...

G8tr

 

[1stCenturyLady]

What I asked is this:
IF the sin nature is eliminated at salvation....
and it is the sin nature that causes man to sin...
then why does man sin after salvation if the sin nature has been eradicated?

I haven't had my coffee yet, so I'll finish reading your post later, but I can answer this one first.

John 15:3 is about the old sin nature that Jesus as the Author of our faith handles first. It says, "you are clean." That is because in 1 John 3:4-5 Jesus takes away lawlessness, John calls "sins unto death" and the Catholic Church had right calling them "mortal sins." The next verse in John 15 has to do now with the maturing of the fruit of the Spirit. Because not every fruit is mature at the beginning of our walk on the path towards salvation, we will unintentionally commit the lesser type of sin called "sins not unto death." Jesus does the work as the Finisher of our faith, and all we have to do is love Him and keep His commandments, which is easy with the indwelling Holy Spirit we received when and if we became born again of the Spirit. (I told you, it was 30 years before I was born again even though I went to church all that time.)

So, yes, we will "sin" after being born again, but it is imperative to know the difference between the two types of sin, which the Reformation botched up lumping them all together. Were you ever taught their heresy that "sin is sin"? Many have. I wasn't, thank God. But a Christian WILL NOT commit sins unto death (the willful breaking of a commandment of God) so 1 John 1:7 is NOT speaking of that type of sin as the Reformationists taught. It says, "If you walk in the Light, as Jesus is in the Light, you will have fellowship with one another, AND THE BLOOD OF JESUS WILL CLEANSE YOU OF ALL SIN." Can you see why Martin Luther confused the two and didn't know the heresy he was proclaiming when he wrote "that even if you committed murder and adultery (both willful sins unto death) a thousand times a day, it will not separate you from God." 1 John 1:7 was talking of the only sins a born again Christian is even capable of unintentionally committing and those are from immature fruit of the Spirit that our Finisher of our faith is continually ripening until as Peter says about these when Jesus has completed His work, we will "never stumble." 2 Peter 1:5-11.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

You need an example of what sin is?
Anything that offends God.
Pick any one of the commandments.

I believe I already covered this in my first post. Picking any one of the commandments is what our cleansed nature cannot commit. Do you agree? We are still able to commit being unloving, or any other sins not unto death because of immature fruit of the Spirit.

No 1st Lady.
Christianity is the religion YOU are practicing.
or is what you are practicing called something different?
We're getting off topic.

So are you saying you are not a Christian? I am. But after leaving three different denominations, none of which were based on Calvinism, but had errors, I am happy to attend any Spirit-filled non-cessationist church for fellowship.

It says that the DEEDS of the sinful nature will be put to death.
NOT the sinful nature.

The "old man" IS the sin nature. It has been crucified. That is how we are free from sin. Romans 6 - a great chapter.

 

[GodsGrace]

Using the word earn is the issue.

YOU used the word EARN.
I was just repeating it.
Of course we cannot earn our salvtion.

You said:
"No. because my faith can not earn me salvation"

I can not earn salvation because I trust God. thats why Paul in ephesians says it is not of ourselves. not of works. lest we boast. it is by grace through faith.

Right.
It is THROUGH faith.

Galatians 2:16
16Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ,


Hebrews 11:6
6And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.


Luke 7:50
50And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

And jesus said it is the work of God we believe. God draws us, He gives us the means to trust him. What we do with that is what seperates the saved from the lost.

He who believes is not condemned, He who does not believe is condemned already

Believing is an act of faith...not of grace.

When you had your child a gift. and they recieve it because they trust you.

they did not earn that gift because they recieved it. YOu paid for it with your money, you did the work that provided the gift..

Its no different with the gift of life. Jesus paid for it on the cross. We have to recieve it.. We will only recieve it if we trust him, if we do not. we will not recieve it.

Trusting is faith.
I agree with the above.

G8tr

LOL

 

[GodsGrace]

I haven't had my coffee yet, so I'll finish reading your post later, but I can answer this one first.

John 15:3 is about the old sin nature that Jesus as the Author of our faith handles first. It says, "you are clean." That is because in 1 John 3:4-5 Jesus takes away lawlessness, John calls "sins unto death" and the Catholic Church had right calling them "mortal sins." The next verse in John 15 has to do now with the maturing of the fruit of the Spirit. Because not every fruit is mature at the beginning of our walk on the path towards salvation, we will unintentionally commit the lesser type of sin called "sins not unto death." Jesus does the work as the Finisher of our faith, and all we have to do is love Him and keep His commandments, which is easy with the indwelling Holy Spirit we received when and if we became born again of the Spirit. (I told you, it was 30 years before I was born again even though I went to church all that time.)

So, yes, we will "sin" after being born again, but it is imperative to know the difference between the two types of sin, which the Reformation botched up lumping them all together. Were you ever taught their heresy that "sin is sin"? Many have. I wasn't, thank God. But a Christian WILL NOT commit sins unto death (the willful breaking of a commandment of God) so 1 John 1:7 is NOT speaking of that type of sin as the Reformationists taught. It says, "If you walk in the Light, as Jesus is in the Light, you will have fellowship with one another, AND THE BLOOD OF JESUS WILL CLEANSE YOU OF ALL SIN." Can you see why Martin Luther confused the two and didn't know the heresy he was proclaiming when he wrote "that even if you committed murder and adultery (both willful sins unto death) a thousand times a day, it will not separate you from God." 1 John 1:7 was talking of the only sins a born again Christian is even capable of unintentionally committing and those are from immature fruit of the Spirit that our Finisher of our faith is continually ripening until as Peter says about these when Jesus has completed His work, we will "never stumble." 2 Peter 1:5-11.

I agree with all of the above including the mistakes Luther made by over-compensating what the CC was doing at the time and creating the faith alone teaching which is nowhere to be found in scripture.

I, and most theologians, agree that there is a sin that leads to death...the CC calls it mortal sin. Mortale means deadly.

So I agree that we will always sin while in our fleshly bodies but I proffer that the sin nature remains in us but is put under submission by the power of the Holy Spirit.

I was trying to get at this.
If we still sin SOMETHING is making us sin...
and that something is the same sin nature we had prior to salvation.

Paul gives instruction on how to not satisfy the fleshly part of man:


Galatians 5:16-17
16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
17For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another,


We still have the flesh (the sin nature) but it is controlled by our spirit.

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe I already covered this in my first post. Picking any one of the commandments is what our cleansed nature cannot commit. Do you agree? We are still able to commit being unloving, or any other sins not unto death because of immature fruit of the Spirit.

Yes. You DID cover this and I've replied to it.
I believe we can commit any sin that we allow ourselves to commit.
Even one of the 10 commandments.

For instance, adultery is unto death per Jesus Himself.
And yet if we allow ourselves, even that can be committed by a Christain person.

So are you saying you are not a Christian? I am. But after leaving three different denominations, none of which were based on Calvinism, but had errors, I am happy to attend any Spirit-filled non-cessationist church for fellowship.

Can't remember the conversation...sorry.
I believe we're both Christian.
Fortunate if one can attend such a church.
I cannot. (due to where I live).

The "old man" IS the sin nature. It has been crucified. That is how we are free from sin. Romans 6 - a great chapter.

Are you saying that a Christian cannot sin?
You believe in sinless perfection?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I agree with all of the above including the mistakes Luther made by over-compensating what the CC was doing at the time and creating the faith alone teaching which is nowhere to be found in scripture.

I, and most theologians, agree that there is a sin that leads to death...the CC calls it mortal sin. Mortale means deadly.

So I agree that we will always sin while in our fleshly bodies but I proffer that the sin nature remains in us but is put under submission by the power of the Holy Spirit.

I was trying to get at this.
If we still sin SOMETHING is making us sin...
and that something is the same sin nature we had prior to salvation.

Paul gives instruction on how to not satisfy the fleshly part of man:


Galatians 5:16-17
16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
17For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another,


We still have the flesh (the sin nature) but it is controlled by our spirit.

Do you consider yourself free from sin, or a sinner? Do you believe 1 John 1:8 is about Christians? How about verse 6?

What made Adam sin? By your thinking you seem to think it was God who created Adam with a sin nature. No. Just a human nature with free will. Adam had a clean nature with no sin before he chose to sin willfully against God's one command. That is when his nature corrupted to be like Satan's now man's god of this world. Jesus takes away that sin. From where? Our nature, making it clean again. But we still have free will.

4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

John 15:1-4 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

Any Christian who commits willful sin is still of the devil and has neither seen Him nor known Him.

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

 

[PeterAndroz]

Maybe you can phrase your question so that it specifies the problem? A true believer does *not* go to Eerlasting Punishment. That is a truism and requires no verses at all.

It's possible I'm completely misreading your comments. Please clarify the issue for me--we may not be disagreeing at all. I do agree that the believer, even failing to perform perfectly, will not go to Everlasting Punishment. The believer is saved by grace--he only has to be recognized as an authentic believer.

All opinion, no verses.
Wanna try again RK ?
""List the verses >>FROM PAUL<< that teaches a believer who fails to perform goes to EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT""

 

[ElieG12]

The Bible says that every human being descended from Adam already has sin (Rom. 3:23). The person who says that he has no sin is nullifying the capacity of Jesus as a rescue in his own case; Jesus does not make a person stop sinning, what he does is give him the opportunity to repent and count on his rescue so that his sins are not taken into account at the time of his judgment... that is why he had to sacrifice his life.

Furthermore, the apostle John clearly tells us that anyone who says he has no sin is lying, and he reinforces the same statement twice (1 John 1:8,10).

When the Bible says that a servant of God does not sin, it means that he does not commit sin as a normal practice in his life, but rather he recognizes it and repents, and does everything in his power not to repeat it. He suffers it, he doesn't enjoy it. That is why biblical repentance and forgiveness exists.

Precisely for this reason there is what is translated as "grace", a kindness from God towards an imperfect person who receives it without deserving it. All human beings are born deserving death, because we are defective from the moment we are conceived, because we are of imperfect lineage. "Natural" death comes from that root.

 

[Randy Kluth]

All opinion, no verses.
Wanna try again RK ?
""List the verses >>FROM PAUL<< that teaches a believer who fails to perform goes to EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT""

Okay, talk to someone else.

 

[GodsGrace]

All opinion, no verses.
Wanna try again RK ?
""List the verses >>FROM PAUL<< that teaches a believer who fails to perform goes to EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT""

Peter...
I have given you a few of the verses you're asking for.
You did not respond.
As usual.
Why?

I suggest that you read the entire NT and not just the parts that you like.
We all tend to do this and it is not the correct way of reading the bible.

I listed verses, from Paul, and there are many more,
that clearly teach that if we do not BEHAVE as Paul teaches,
we will go to be where God is not.

Not only Paul,,,,but JESUS taught this.

Here is what Jesus said:

Matthew 7:26-27 The foolish man does not behave as Jesus taught.
26“Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
27“The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”

° The man did not behave as Jesus taught.
He did not act on the word/teachings of Jesus.

° He is a foolish man.

° The winds came. His house fell.


Very clear scripture.
From both Paul and Jesus.

 

[GodsGrace]

Maybe you can phrase your question so that it specifies the problem? A true believer does *not* go to Eerlasting Punishment. That is a truism and requires no verses at all.

It's possible I'm completely misreading your comments. Please clarify the issue for me--we may not be disagreeing at all. I do agree that the believer, even failing to perform perfectly, will not go to Everlasting Punishment. The believer is saved by grace--he only has to be recognized as an authentic believer.

What if I believe in Jesus and accept Him and then I go on to murder a couple of people each month.
Am I headed for heaven?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

YOU used the word EARN.
I was just repeating it.
Of course we cannot earn our salvtion.
You said:
"No. because my faith can not earn me salvation"

But you said faith DOES earn your salvation.

which is why I said that is the issue.

Now your saying it can not earn us our salvation?

sorry I am confused

Right.
It is THROUGH faith.

Galatians 2:16
16Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ,


Hebrews 11:6
6And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.


Luke 7:50
50And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”



Believing is an act of faith...not of grace.

But I can believe yet not have faith. And yes, But the ability to even have faith would be based on Gods grace. apart from Grace all the faith in the world would never help me

Trusting is faith.
I agree with the above.

thank you

LOL

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes. You DID cover this and I've replied to it.
I believe we can commit any sin that we allow ourselves to commit.
Even one of the 10 commandments.

For instance, adultery is unto death per Jesus Himself.
And yet if we allow ourselves, even that can be committed by a Christain person.

Amen, remember jesus said if we even lust after a woman, we have commited adulty.

Can't remember the conversation...sorry.
I believe we're both Christian.
Fortunate if one can attend such a church.
I cannot. (due to where I live).


Are you saying that a Christian cannot sin?
You believe in sinless perfection?

welcome to the other side of things.. Someone who thinks the moment you become a christian, you are no longer able to sin period..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The Bible says that every human being descended from Adam already has sin (Rom. 3:23). The person who says that he has no sin is nullifying the capacity of Jesus as a rescue in his own case; Jesus does not make a person stop sinning, what he does is give him the opportunity to repent and count on his rescue so that his sins are not taken into account at the time of his judgment... that is why he had to sacrifice his life.

Furthermore, the apostle John clearly tells us that anyone who says he has no sin is lying, and he reinforces the same statement twice (1 John 1:8,10).

When the Bible says that a servant of God does not sin, it means that he does not commit sin as a normal practice in his life, but rather he recognizes it and repents, and does everything in his power not to repeat it. He suffers it, he doesn't enjoy it. That is why biblical repentance and forgiveness exists.

Precisely for this reason there is what is translated as "grace", a kindness from God towards an imperfect person who receives it without deserving it. All human beings are born deserving death, because we are defective from the moment we are conceived, because we are of imperfect lineage. "Natural" death comes from that root.

Amen,

lets not be decieved. We are saved as a baby, a new child in Christ. and are being sanctified every day. because we are not perfect. If we are perfect. we no longer need grace or christian growth. we have arrived

 

[Randy Kluth]

What if I believe in Jesus and accept Him and then I go on to murder a couple of people each month.
Am I headed for heaven?

People who believe in Jesus authentically have been born again and do not go on in their former sins. While it's true that those who have genuinely converted relapse, I don't think it normal, typical, or even reality to think such Christians relapse to the point of regular murdering others for hire, sport, or otherwise.

There are always mitigating factors in such cases, including things like mental illness, emotional distress, jealousy. But the way you are describing this as born again Christians determining to act unlike born again Christians seems more like an anti-
Calvinist argument. No Christian would argue this kind of sloppy grace, because it isn't grace at all.

Thanks for your question... For the sake of argument, if genuine born again Christians return to explicit corruption on a pemanent basis, I would have to admit that they have utterly lost their Christianity. I just don't think authentic Christians do this unless there are extreme extenuating circumstances. If so, God knows this and would take into consideration all of these factors when applying His Grace to them, or not.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

People who believe in Jesus authentically have been born again and do not go on in their former sins. While it's true that those who have genuinely converted relapse, I don't think it normal, typical, or even reality to think such Christians relapse to the point of regular murdering others for hire, sport, or otherwise.

There are always mitigating factors in such cases, including things like mental illness, emotional distress, jealousy. But the way you are describing this as born again Christians determining to act unlike born again Christians seems more like an anti-
Calvinist argument. No Christian would argue this kind of sloppy grace, because it isn't grace at all.

Thanks for your question... For the sake of argument, if genuine born again Christians return to explicit corruption on a pemanent basis, I would have to admit that they have utterly lost their Christianity. I just don't think authentic Christians do this unless there are extreme extenuating circumstances. If so, God knows this and would take into consideration all of these factors when applying His Grace to them, or not.

1 John 3:
3 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

Sin and the Child of God​

4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.


A child of God has been made in a new nature. Their old nature was crucified with christ. for this reason. it is against their nature to continue in sin.. so anyone who did that. as john said, is a child of satan, and has never seen God

 

[Randy Kluth]

1 John 3:
3 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

Sin and the Child of God​

4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.


A child of God has been made in a new nature. Their old nature was crucified with christ. for this reason. it is against their nature to continue in sin.. so anyone who did that. as john said, is a child of satan, and has never seen God

I think it important to note how language works here. When John speaks of the believer not sinning, that is an abbreviation for saying a believer does not *practice sin* or for saying that he does not *normally* or *continually* practice sin.

John has already gone on record as saying that all Christians, and indeed all humans, sin. So, it is only logical that he is going on to say that Christians regularly overcome their sin by preferring the Christian lifestyle over a life of sin. It is not just a truism, which in a sense it is, but it is also a statement that there are phony Christians who outwardly depict righteousness without fully embracing it in their hearts and private practices.

The truism: the righteous Christian is a righteous Christian. The reality: the righteous Christian is not perfect and has the Sin Nature dwelling within his or her flesh. The point: the righteous Christian will demonstrate a consistent righteousness, both externally and inwardly. This is not dealing with unusual or extraneous situations, in which grace may apply to those under unusual duress.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I think it important to note how language works here. When John speaks of the believer not sinning, that is an abbreviation for saying a believer does not *practice sin* or for saying that he does not *normally* or *continually* practice sin.

John has already gone on record as saying that all Christians, and indeed all humans, sin. So, it is only logical that he is going on to say that Christians regularly overcome their sin by preferring the Christian lifestyle over a life of sin. It is not just a truism, which in a sense it is, but it is also a statement that there are phony Christians who outwardly depict righteousness without fully embracing it in their hearts and private practices.

The truism: the righteous Christian is a righteous Christian. The reality: the righteous Christian is not perfect and has the Sin Nature dwelling within his or her flesh. The point: the righteous Christian will demonstrate a consistent righteousness, both externally and inwardly. This is not dealing with unusual or extraneous situations, in which grace may apply to those under unusual duress.

yes 100%

my point was that someone who is in habitual sin, or living in sin, has never seen or known God.

so he could not have been saved at one time, then fell back into sin.

 

[GodsGrace]

People who believe in Jesus authentically have been born again and do not go on in their former sins. While it's true that those who have genuinely converted relapse, I don't think it normal, typical, or even reality to think such Christians relapse to the point of regular murdering others for hire, sport, or otherwise.

There are always mitigating factors in such cases, including things like mental illness, emotional distress, jealousy. But the way you are describing this as born again Christians determining to act unlike born again Christians seems more like an anti-
Calvinist argument. No Christian would argue this kind of sloppy grace, because it isn't grace at all.

Thanks for your question... For the sake of argument, if genuine born again Christians return to explicit corruption on a pemanent basis, I would have to admit that they have utterly lost their Christianity. I just don't think authentic Christians do this unless there are extreme extenuating circumstances. If so, God knows this and would take into consideration all of these factors when applying His Grace to them, or not.

My goodness Randy Kluth
I was using murder as an extreme example.
Do YOU know anyone that kills a few people every month?

Someone on YouTube, I will not be offering to give him any publicity here....
actually stated that a believer could kill a few persons every month and still be saved.

I appreciate your last sentence and for agreeing with the bible.
What we think matters not...
all that matters is what the NT teaches...
and it teaches that salvation can be forfeited.

I've got plenty of scripture if you'd like to see it...
but must close down now....