What is the meaning of Grace, according to the Bible?

[David1701]

Paul said in 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. You can't go around picking verses out the Bible that lines up with your doctrine. Rightly dividing the truth starts from Genesis to Revelation. Rightly dividing the truth starts from Genesis to Revelation. Because people don’t really read the Bible on their own and study, so they post without scriptures and verses to prove their belief.

But let's go and an example of this water in Revelation 7th chapter and keep in mind this after the great tribulation. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

You know, it's amusing that you pontificate about rightly dividing the word the truth, then immediately do the exact opposite...

When a word or expression can have more than one meaning (e.g. the figurative use of "water"), then the context determines which meaning is being used. You cannot jump to another book, about a completely different subject (Rev. 7), and just assume that the usage is the same as it is in John 3!

Let's take another look at this water, because this was prophesy by Isaiah 49: 10 They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them. 11 And I will make all my mountains a way, and my highways shall be exalted. 12 Behold, these shall come from far: and, lo, these from the north and from the west; and these from the land of Sinim. 13 Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains: for the LORD hath comforted his people, and will have mercy upon his afflicted.

One more last example....John 4: 3Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: 14 but whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

These passages are not only different contexts (and different usages of "water") from John 3; they are also different from each other! Do you remember that exhortation about rightly dividing?

So when Jesus died and born again he had a different Body and can do other things like pop up from nowhere, etc. Look at what 1 Peter 1: 23 being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24 For All flesh is as grass, And all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

The abilities of Jesus' resurrected body, have precisely nothing to do with being born again.

Notice how Peter shifts the conversation and compares us to grass and flower, because it dies and we died. The word of God never dies, but Peter had to make this comparison with flesh and grass, so people can understand the difference of what he's' talking about. When we born again, we can't die anymore, we not of the flesh anymore. Paul confirm what Peter says the same thing in 1 Corthinan 15: 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Being born again is being given a new spirit (c.f. Ez. 36:26,27); the resurrection is when our physical bodies are changed. Remember that exhortation about rightly dividing?

Right now our minds are in the spirit of God, if we walk in his word and keep his Commandment, Statues and Judgements. But we live in the flesh. We are of the corruptible seed, flesh! Paul says in Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Why do you keep conflating being born again (an internal matter - being given a new spirit) with having our physical bodies resurrected?

You need rightly to divide the word of God!

And when will this take place?

In I Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

At the last trump, and not a moment before. One last place in 1 Corinthian 15: 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

That is indeed when our physical bodies will be resurrected, in the future.

We are born again now, in this life, by the Holy Spirit.

Re. biblical usages of water:

1) It can obviously mean physical water

2) It can refer to God's word

3) It can refer to the Holy Spirit

4) It can refer to cleansing

5) It can refer to baptism

6) It can refer to the woman's waters breaking, in physical birth

Which one of these is meant, in John 3, is determined by the context in John 3. Nicodemus keeps speaking of the outward and physical, while Jesus keeps contrasting these with the inward and spiritual.

John 3:1,2 (W.E.B.)
1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews.
2 The same came to him by night, and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do, unless God is with him.”

Nicodemus speaks of seeing outward signs.

3 Jesus answered him, “Most certainly, I tell you, unless one is born anew, he can’t see the Kingdom of God.”

Jesus directs him to what really matters, "seeing" (literally, perceiving) the Kingdom of God (and we know that the Kingdom of God does not come with outward appearance), which can only be done by those who have had their spirit born again.

4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?”

Nicodemus misunderstands (again focusing on the physical, rather than the spiritual), thinking that Jesus was referring to being born physically a second time.

5 Jesus answered, “Most certainly I tell you, unless one is born of water and spirit, he can’t enter into the Kingdom of God!
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

In these two verses, Jesus contrasts physical birth and spiritual rebirth. Unless one is born physically and spiritually, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. That which is born of flesh (the physical body) is flesh; but, that which is born of the Spirit (our reborn human spirit) is spirit.

 

[bro.tan]

You know, it's amusing that you pontificate about rightly dividing the word the truth, then immediately do the exact opposite...

When a word or expression can have more than one meaning (e.g. the figurative use of "water"), then the context determines which meaning is being used. You cannot jump to another book, about a completely different subject (Rev. 7), and just assume that the usage is the same as it is in John 3!



These passages are not only different contexts (and different usages of "water") from John 3; they are also different from each other! Do you remember that exhortation about rightly dividing?



The abilities of Jesus' resurrected body, have precisely nothing to do with being born again.


Being born again is being given a new spirit (c.f. Ez. 36:26,27); the resurrection is when our physical bodies are changed. Remember that exhortation about rightly dividing?


Why do you keep conflating being born again (an internal matter - being given a new spirit) with having our physical bodies resurrected?

You need rightly to divide the word of God!


That is indeed when our physical bodies will be resurrected, in the future.

We are born again now, in this life, by the Holy Spirit.

Re. biblical usages of water:

1) It can obviously mean physical water

2) It can refer to God's word

3) It can refer to the Holy Spirit

4) It can refer to cleansing

5) It can refer to baptism

6) It can refer to the woman's waters breaking, in physical birth

Which one of these is meant, in John 3, is determined by the context in John 3. Nicodemus keeps speaking of the outward and physical, while Jesus keeps contrasting these with the inward and spiritual.

John 3:1,2 (W.E.B.)
1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews.
2 The same came to him by night, and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do, unless God is with him.”

Nicodemus speaks of seeing outward signs.

3 Jesus answered him, “Most certainly, I tell you, unless one is born anew, he can’t see the Kingdom of God.”

Jesus directs him to what really matters, "seeing" (literally, perceiving) the Kingdom of God (and we know that the Kingdom of God does not come with outward appearance), which can only be done by those who have had their spirit born again.

4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?”

Nicodemus misunderstands (again focusing on the physical, rather than the spiritual), thinking that Jesus was referring to being born physically a second time.

5 Jesus answered, “Most certainly I tell you, unless one is born of water and spirit, he can’t enter into the Kingdom of God!
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

In these two verses, Jesus contrasts physical birth and spiritual rebirth. Unless one is born physically and spiritually, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. That which is born of flesh (the physical body) is flesh; but, that which is born of the Spirit (our reborn human spirit) is spirit.

Thanks for your response and peace in Jesus name

 

[bro.tan]

We would want to do away with a Covenant that condemns us to eternal darkness, even if that Covenant was holy. Yes, Paul asserted that the Law was not Sin. How could it be? God gave that Covenant, and God is perfect. God would never ask Israel to Sin!

However, that Covenant was anticipated to fail in Israel over time. It failed once during the Captivities, and it failed ultimately in the time of Christ's death.

God fully anticipated Israel's failure under the Law, even as Moses admitted at the end of Deuteronomy. None of this has a thing to do with whether the Law asked Israel to Sin!

Paul is arguing that in Christ there is no longer the condemnation of the Mosaic Law against Israel. And if the Law was no longer active as a covenant agreement between God and Israel, then Israel could no longer break that agreement.

Again, what Paul said must be understood *in context.* Paul was speaking of the fact that Abraham, who received the Covenant of Promise, received it *before* there was a Covenant agreement based on the Law. And so, Abraham did not have to keep an agreement that did not even exist yet. As such, his Covenant hope in Christ was secure in the mercy of God, and not dependent on his compliance with the Law of Moses.

In context, the "love" Paul spoke of, which "fulfilled the Law," was the love of Christ. This was based on the record of Christ's righteousness and not based on the record of flawed human righteousness. It is our love in Christ that proves Christ is the basis of our righteousness and justification--not the perfect record of our own "love."

Christ's love is something we benefit from in two ways. We benefit in the application of his righteousness as a substitution for our own failures. And we benefit as participants in that righteousness because it can no longer be taken away from us based on our own flawed record.

As I said, the morality and the spirituality contained in the Law of Moses is instructive to those of us who are in the New Covenant of Christ. After all, the Law of Moses pointed to the Grace and Righteousness of Christ, which existed before and apart from the Law of Moses. Loving our neighbor would not justify us unless we rely on the atonement of Christ.

In context, the Apostle John in 1 John speaks of the commandments of Christ, and not the commandments of the Law of Moses.

1 John 1.3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.

If Jesus called for his Disciples to obey the commandments of the Law of Moses, it was only while they were still under that Covenant. But that it is clear he intended this to be temporary he said he had come to "fulfill the Law." That means a New Covenant was in order that is different from the Law, although it is consistent with what the Law saw as coming.

In the days of Jesus, the religious leaders were constantly questioning Jesus in order to test Him and on this occasion a lawyer asked Jesus what is the great commandment?

Matthew (22:35) Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, (36) Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

Jesus reply was the 1st great commandment was to love God and the 2nd was to love ones neighbor. These were given as a commandment for man to love.

Matthew (22:37) Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. (38) This is the first and great commandment. (39) And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

One should note that by following the 1st and 2nd great commandment they will be adhering to the 10 commandments issued by Moses. If they love the Lord they won’t have any other Gods before him, or make any graven images or take his name in vain, they will remember his Sabbath and if they love their neighbor they will honor their Father and Mother and they won’t kill or commit adultery or steal or bear false witness nor will they covet. This is why Jesus goes on to state that on these two commandments hang the law and the prophets. Because by fulfilling these two commandments one fulfills the law.

(40) On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Jesus stated that these 2 commandments where the 2 great commandments however the following verses will show that these commandments were not new and that the Jews and Jesus was speaking to were aware of them. These were the same ones issued to Israel by Moses.

Deuteronomy (6:5) And thy shall love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Leviticus (19:18) Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Now that it has been established that man was commanded to love one needs to examine the scriptures to get an understanding of the love required in these great commandments.

In the following verses Moses is telling the Israelites that God chose them strictly out of His love for them.Deuteronomy (7:7) The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: (8) But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

(9) Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

Note in verse (9) Moses states a condition that God requires in order for Him to keep covenant and have mercy. And that is an individual must love God and keep His commandments. The scriptures will show that there is only one way to love God and that is by keeping His commandments.

Note that Jesus states in the following verse that in order to love Him one has to keep His commandments.

John (14:15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Jesus further defines the love He requires when He states in the following verse that those who have His commandments and keep them are those that love Him. One does not have to guess at Jesus definition of love He made it clear.

John (14:21) He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Jesus also reinforced what was said in Deuteronomy verse (9) by adding that those that love Him will be loved by the Father. How does one love Jesus? by keeping His commandments and Moses said God will keep covenant and have mercy with those who keep His commandments. So therefore by following Jesus one shall receive love from Him as well as mercy from the Father.

Note in these scriptures it did not say those who profess their love for Jesus or those that claim that Jesus knows what in their heart. Jesus made a clear and direct statement if one has His commandments and keeps them they are the ones who love Him. The statement that Jesus made as well as the condition Moses gave in Deuteronomy verse (9) were based on behalf of an individuals actions not their feeling or emotions or conditions. To exhibit love towards Jesus one must engage in a specific action and that action is being obedience to the word of God. And one will see that they are to be obedient regardless of their feeling or the surrounding circumstances.

Jesus states again in the following verses what is required of an individual to receive His love.

John (15:9) As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. (10) If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Notice Jesus use the word if ye keep my commandments, so what happen if ye do not keep his commandments. The above verse shows to be loved of Jesus one needs to be obedient. Jesus also states in verse (10) that He was obedient to the Father by keeping His commandments and therefore abides in His love.

 

[bro.tan]

Absolutely not. That is your defintion, when words have to mean what they mean in context--not what *you* say they mean in this particular context. There is no way Christ magnified the Law by "enlarging it and applying it to us as a requirement." He is the one who displayed perfect righteousness--not under the Law but in perfect obedience to his Father in heaven.

We live by Christ's righteousness, even though we know we don't do it perfectly. If we were under the Law it would magnify the fact we are sinners and ineligible for Eternal Life based on our own record of righteousness. We benefit from *Christ's record of righteousness,* which is perfect. We only have to participate in it and sign onto it in covenant form. We in a sense "marry" into it.

But the principle of morality contained in the Law of Moses is very instructive, even though it is no longer a covenant system for Israel or for others to live by. We can utilize some of those principles of Moral Law to apply within the Christian Covenant.

If Jesus "magnified" the Law at all, it would've been for Israel while they were still under the Law, or it would've been to show how we are hopeless based on our own record of righteousness under that system. Jesus magnified his own record of righteousness and magnified his grace, which keeps us having access to his righteousness even though we remain imperfect.

I've heard this argument many times, that Jesus' New Covenant was the Old Law of Moses applied in deeper way with respect to the heart. No, that is not the definition of the New Covenant. The New Covenant was symbolically displayed in the Eucharist, or the Lord's Supper, which indicated that Covenant begins with the shed blood of Jesus on the Cross.

The Law of Moses *always* applied in a deeper, heart-felt way. This was not new. Jesus was teaching it only because Israel had been losing true religion to a strictly external one.

We follow Jesus' righteousness, which is holy, pure, and clean. We have no argument with that.

Jesus was saying that the testimony of the Law, requiring the righteousness of the Law, remains binding until the end of the world. What this means, practically, is that Man remains bound, apart from Christ, to obey God's Law even though it condemns him simultaneously.

Jesus was saying that he would fulfill the Law, meaning that righteousness would be imposed by him apart from the Law and that until such time as he did that Israel would be obligated to keep the whole Law. If Jesus felt that the righteousness of the Law would be required forever there would've been no need for him to say *he had to fulfill the Law!*

Man!! You fight against every thing I post, which is crystal clear. Look how many verses and Scriptures you use to prove your argument. AMAZING!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Man!! You fight against every thing I post, which is crystal clear. Look how many verses and Scriptures you use to prove your argument. AMAZING!

Your regular theme is an attempt to push an outdated Law upon Christians. No wonder I oppose every argument for this heretical view.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Matthew (22:37) Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. (38) This is the first and great commandment. (39) And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

One should note that by following the 1st and 2nd great commandment they will be adhering to the 10 commandments issued by Moses.

This is non-sequitur. Obeying Jesus in the 1st and 2nd Great Commandments does *not* mean adherance to the 10 Commandments, no!
The 10 Commandments are a subset of the Law of Moses. Under the New Covenant, which is an entirely different covenant, one can obey the 1st and 2nd Great Commandments without adhering to the 10 Commandments, which are a part of the Old Covenant.

If they love the Lord they won’t have any other Gods before him, or make any graven images or take his name in vain, they will remember his Sabbath...

Again, this does not follow. If a group loves the Lord as Christians they do not remember the Sabbath, which is a requirement under an outmoded covenant.

and if they love their neighbor they will honor their Father and Mother and they won’t kill or commit adultery or steal or bear false witness nor will they covet. This is why Jesus goes on to state that on these two commandments hang the law and the prophets. Because by fulfilling these two commandments one fulfills the law.

The Law, which is an outmoded Covenant, did hang on the 2 Great Commandments. But the 2 Great Commandments continue well past the cessation of the Old Covenant.

(9) Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

God was saying He will have mercy upon those who love Him to a thousand generations. He was *not* saying they will love Him for a thousand generations by keeping the commandments contained in the Law of Moses!

Note in verse (9) Moses states a condition that God requires in order for Him to keep covenant and have mercy. And that is an individual must love God and keep His commandments. The scriptures will show that there is only one way to love God and that is by keeping His commandments.

The commandments contained in the Law were valid while that covenant was still in force. It is no longer in force. God's commandments are different under the New Covenant, although the Law had pointed forward to them.

Some commandments remain the same simply because from the beginning God made Man to to live in His image and after His likeness. That doesn't change whether under the Old Covenant or under the New Covenant.

Note that Jesus states in the following verse that in order to love Him one has to keep His commandments.

John (14:15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.

The commandments were different when the Law was in effect. Some commandments remain the same under both covenants. We have to be clear under which covenant we're living when we say we're keeping God's commandments.

We cannot, for example, say we're obeying the Sabbath Law while at the same time claiming we're living under the New Covenant, because the Sabbath Law was an OT commandment.

Jesus further defines the love He requires when He states in the following verse that those who have His commandments and keep them are those that love Him. One does not have to guess at Jesus definition of love He made it clear.

John (14:21) He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Nobody is arguing the need to keep God's commandments. The critical point here is: what particular covenant is in force today? That would be the New Covenant of Christ--not the Old Covenant during which the Law of Moses was in effect. You want a biblical verse?....

John 1.16 Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

If you want to be under the Law, you will not have "grace and truth." Pushing the Law is pushing error. I don't need a ton of Scriptures to point this out.

Matt 17.4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.”
5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”

Push Jesus--not Moses!