What is the meaning of Grace, according to the Bible?

[David1701]

Paul said in 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. You can't go around picking verses out the Bible that lines up with your doctrine. Rightly dividing the truth starts from Genesis to Revelation. Rightly dividing the truth starts from Genesis to Revelation. Because people don’t really read the Bible on their own and study, so they post without scriptures and verses to prove their belief.

But let's go and an example of this water in Revelation 7th chapter and keep in mind this after the great tribulation. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

You know, it's amusing that you pontificate about rightly dividing the word the truth, then immediately do the exact opposite...

When a word or expression can have more than one meaning (e.g. the figurative use of "water"), then the context determines which meaning is being used. You cannot jump to another book, about a completely different subject (Rev. 7), and just assume that the usage is the same as it is in John 3!

Let's take another look at this water, because this was prophesy by Isaiah 49: 10 They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them. 11 And I will make all my mountains a way, and my highways shall be exalted. 12 Behold, these shall come from far: and, lo, these from the north and from the west; and these from the land of Sinim. 13 Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains: for the LORD hath comforted his people, and will have mercy upon his afflicted.

One more last example....John 4: 3Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: 14 but whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

These passages are not only different contexts (and different usages of "water") from John 3; they are also different from each other! Do you remember that exhortation about rightly dividing?

So when Jesus died and born again he had a different Body and can do other things like pop up from nowhere, etc. Look at what 1 Peter 1: 23 being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24 For All flesh is as grass, And all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

The abilities of Jesus' resurrected body, have precisely nothing to do with being born again.

Notice how Peter shifts the conversation and compares us to grass and flower, because it dies and we died. The word of God never dies, but Peter had to make this comparison with flesh and grass, so people can understand the difference of what he's' talking about. When we born again, we can't die anymore, we not of the flesh anymore. Paul confirm what Peter says the same thing in 1 Corthinan 15: 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Being born again is being given a new spirit (c.f. Ez. 36:26,27); the resurrection is when our physical bodies are changed. Remember that exhortation about rightly dividing?

Right now our minds are in the spirit of God, if we walk in his word and keep his Commandment, Statues and Judgements. But we live in the flesh. We are of the corruptible seed, flesh! Paul says in Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Why do you keep conflating being born again (an internal matter - being given a new spirit) with having our physical bodies resurrected?

You need rightly to divide the word of God!

And when will this take place?

In I Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

At the last trump, and not a moment before. One last place in 1 Corinthian 15: 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

That is indeed when our physical bodies will be resurrected, in the future.

We are born again now, in this life, by the Holy Spirit.

Re. biblical usages of water:

1) It can obviously mean physical water

2) It can refer to God's word

3) It can refer to the Holy Spirit

4) It can refer to cleansing

5) It can refer to baptism

6) It can refer to the woman's waters breaking, in physical birth

Which one of these is meant, in John 3, is determined by the context in John 3. Nicodemus keeps speaking of the outward and physical, while Jesus keeps contrasting these with the inward and spiritual.

John 3:1,2 (W.E.B.)
1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews.
2 The same came to him by night, and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do, unless God is with him.”

Nicodemus speaks of seeing outward signs.

3 Jesus answered him, “Most certainly, I tell you, unless one is born anew, he can’t see the Kingdom of God.”

Jesus directs him to what really matters, "seeing" (literally, perceiving) the Kingdom of God (and we know that the Kingdom of God does not come with outward appearance), which can only be done by those who have had their spirit born again.

4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?”

Nicodemus misunderstands (again focusing on the physical, rather than the spiritual), thinking that Jesus was referring to being born physically a second time.

5 Jesus answered, “Most certainly I tell you, unless one is born of water and spirit, he can’t enter into the Kingdom of God!
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

In these two verses, Jesus contrasts physical birth and spiritual rebirth. Unless one is born physically and spiritually, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. That which is born of flesh (the physical body) is flesh; but, that which is born of the Spirit (our reborn human spirit) is spirit.

 

[bro.tan]

You know, it's amusing that you pontificate about rightly dividing the word the truth, then immediately do the exact opposite...

When a word or expression can have more than one meaning (e.g. the figurative use of "water"), then the context determines which meaning is being used. You cannot jump to another book, about a completely different subject (Rev. 7), and just assume that the usage is the same as it is in John 3!



These passages are not only different contexts (and different usages of "water") from John 3; they are also different from each other! Do you remember that exhortation about rightly dividing?



The abilities of Jesus' resurrected body, have precisely nothing to do with being born again.


Being born again is being given a new spirit (c.f. Ez. 36:26,27); the resurrection is when our physical bodies are changed. Remember that exhortation about rightly dividing?


Why do you keep conflating being born again (an internal matter - being given a new spirit) with having our physical bodies resurrected?

You need rightly to divide the word of God!


That is indeed when our physical bodies will be resurrected, in the future.

We are born again now, in this life, by the Holy Spirit.

Re. biblical usages of water:

1) It can obviously mean physical water

2) It can refer to God's word

3) It can refer to the Holy Spirit

4) It can refer to cleansing

5) It can refer to baptism

6) It can refer to the woman's waters breaking, in physical birth

Which one of these is meant, in John 3, is determined by the context in John 3. Nicodemus keeps speaking of the outward and physical, while Jesus keeps contrasting these with the inward and spiritual.

John 3:1,2 (W.E.B.)
1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews.
2 The same came to him by night, and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do, unless God is with him.”

Nicodemus speaks of seeing outward signs.

3 Jesus answered him, “Most certainly, I tell you, unless one is born anew, he can’t see the Kingdom of God.”

Jesus directs him to what really matters, "seeing" (literally, perceiving) the Kingdom of God (and we know that the Kingdom of God does not come with outward appearance), which can only be done by those who have had their spirit born again.

4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?”

Nicodemus misunderstands (again focusing on the physical, rather than the spiritual), thinking that Jesus was referring to being born physically a second time.

5 Jesus answered, “Most certainly I tell you, unless one is born of water and spirit, he can’t enter into the Kingdom of God!
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

In these two verses, Jesus contrasts physical birth and spiritual rebirth. Unless one is born physically and spiritually, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. That which is born of flesh (the physical body) is flesh; but, that which is born of the Spirit (our reborn human spirit) is spirit.

Thanks for your response and peace in Jesus name

 

[bro.tan]

We would want to do away with a Covenant that condemns us to eternal darkness, even if that Covenant was holy. Yes, Paul asserted that the Law was not Sin. How could it be? God gave that Covenant, and God is perfect. God would never ask Israel to Sin!

However, that Covenant was anticipated to fail in Israel over time. It failed once during the Captivities, and it failed ultimately in the time of Christ's death.

God fully anticipated Israel's failure under the Law, even as Moses admitted at the end of Deuteronomy. None of this has a thing to do with whether the Law asked Israel to Sin!

Paul is arguing that in Christ there is no longer the condemnation of the Mosaic Law against Israel. And if the Law was no longer active as a covenant agreement between God and Israel, then Israel could no longer break that agreement.

Again, what Paul said must be understood *in context.* Paul was speaking of the fact that Abraham, who received the Covenant of Promise, received it *before* there was a Covenant agreement based on the Law. And so, Abraham did not have to keep an agreement that did not even exist yet. As such, his Covenant hope in Christ was secure in the mercy of God, and not dependent on his compliance with the Law of Moses.

In context, the "love" Paul spoke of, which "fulfilled the Law," was the love of Christ. This was based on the record of Christ's righteousness and not based on the record of flawed human righteousness. It is our love in Christ that proves Christ is the basis of our righteousness and justification--not the perfect record of our own "love."

Christ's love is something we benefit from in two ways. We benefit in the application of his righteousness as a substitution for our own failures. And we benefit as participants in that righteousness because it can no longer be taken away from us based on our own flawed record.

As I said, the morality and the spirituality contained in the Law of Moses is instructive to those of us who are in the New Covenant of Christ. After all, the Law of Moses pointed to the Grace and Righteousness of Christ, which existed before and apart from the Law of Moses. Loving our neighbor would not justify us unless we rely on the atonement of Christ.

In context, the Apostle John in 1 John speaks of the commandments of Christ, and not the commandments of the Law of Moses.

1 John 1.3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.

If Jesus called for his Disciples to obey the commandments of the Law of Moses, it was only while they were still under that Covenant. But that it is clear he intended this to be temporary he said he had come to "fulfill the Law." That means a New Covenant was in order that is different from the Law, although it is consistent with what the Law saw as coming.

In the days of Jesus, the religious leaders were constantly questioning Jesus in order to test Him and on this occasion a lawyer asked Jesus what is the great commandment?

Matthew (22:35) Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, (36) Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

Jesus reply was the 1st great commandment was to love God and the 2nd was to love ones neighbor. These were given as a commandment for man to love.

Matthew (22:37) Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. (38) This is the first and great commandment. (39) And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

One should note that by following the 1st and 2nd great commandment they will be adhering to the 10 commandments issued by Moses. If they love the Lord they won’t have any other Gods before him, or make any graven images or take his name in vain, they will remember his Sabbath and if they love their neighbor they will honor their Father and Mother and they won’t kill or commit adultery or steal or bear false witness nor will they covet. This is why Jesus goes on to state that on these two commandments hang the law and the prophets. Because by fulfilling these two commandments one fulfills the law.

(40) On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Jesus stated that these 2 commandments where the 2 great commandments however the following verses will show that these commandments were not new and that the Jews and Jesus was speaking to were aware of them. These were the same ones issued to Israel by Moses.

Deuteronomy (6:5) And thy shall love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Leviticus (19:18) Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Now that it has been established that man was commanded to love one needs to examine the scriptures to get an understanding of the love required in these great commandments.

In the following verses Moses is telling the Israelites that God chose them strictly out of His love for them.Deuteronomy (7:7) The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: (8) But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

(9) Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

Note in verse (9) Moses states a condition that God requires in order for Him to keep covenant and have mercy. And that is an individual must love God and keep His commandments. The scriptures will show that there is only one way to love God and that is by keeping His commandments.

Note that Jesus states in the following verse that in order to love Him one has to keep His commandments.

John (14:15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Jesus further defines the love He requires when He states in the following verse that those who have His commandments and keep them are those that love Him. One does not have to guess at Jesus definition of love He made it clear.

John (14:21) He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Jesus also reinforced what was said in Deuteronomy verse (9) by adding that those that love Him will be loved by the Father. How does one love Jesus? by keeping His commandments and Moses said God will keep covenant and have mercy with those who keep His commandments. So therefore by following Jesus one shall receive love from Him as well as mercy from the Father.

Note in these scriptures it did not say those who profess their love for Jesus or those that claim that Jesus knows what in their heart. Jesus made a clear and direct statement if one has His commandments and keeps them they are the ones who love Him. The statement that Jesus made as well as the condition Moses gave in Deuteronomy verse (9) were based on behalf of an individuals actions not their feeling or emotions or conditions. To exhibit love towards Jesus one must engage in a specific action and that action is being obedience to the word of God. And one will see that they are to be obedient regardless of their feeling or the surrounding circumstances.

Jesus states again in the following verses what is required of an individual to receive His love.

John (15:9) As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. (10) If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Notice Jesus use the word if ye keep my commandments, so what happen if ye do not keep his commandments. The above verse shows to be loved of Jesus one needs to be obedient. Jesus also states in verse (10) that He was obedient to the Father by keeping His commandments and therefore abides in His love.

 

[bro.tan]

Absolutely not. That is your defintion, when words have to mean what they mean in context--not what *you* say they mean in this particular context. There is no way Christ magnified the Law by "enlarging it and applying it to us as a requirement." He is the one who displayed perfect righteousness--not under the Law but in perfect obedience to his Father in heaven.

We live by Christ's righteousness, even though we know we don't do it perfectly. If we were under the Law it would magnify the fact we are sinners and ineligible for Eternal Life based on our own record of righteousness. We benefit from *Christ's record of righteousness,* which is perfect. We only have to participate in it and sign onto it in covenant form. We in a sense "marry" into it.

But the principle of morality contained in the Law of Moses is very instructive, even though it is no longer a covenant system for Israel or for others to live by. We can utilize some of those principles of Moral Law to apply within the Christian Covenant.

If Jesus "magnified" the Law at all, it would've been for Israel while they were still under the Law, or it would've been to show how we are hopeless based on our own record of righteousness under that system. Jesus magnified his own record of righteousness and magnified his grace, which keeps us having access to his righteousness even though we remain imperfect.

I've heard this argument many times, that Jesus' New Covenant was the Old Law of Moses applied in deeper way with respect to the heart. No, that is not the definition of the New Covenant. The New Covenant was symbolically displayed in the Eucharist, or the Lord's Supper, which indicated that Covenant begins with the shed blood of Jesus on the Cross.

The Law of Moses *always* applied in a deeper, heart-felt way. This was not new. Jesus was teaching it only because Israel had been losing true religion to a strictly external one.

We follow Jesus' righteousness, which is holy, pure, and clean. We have no argument with that.

Jesus was saying that the testimony of the Law, requiring the righteousness of the Law, remains binding until the end of the world. What this means, practically, is that Man remains bound, apart from Christ, to obey God's Law even though it condemns him simultaneously.

Jesus was saying that he would fulfill the Law, meaning that righteousness would be imposed by him apart from the Law and that until such time as he did that Israel would be obligated to keep the whole Law. If Jesus felt that the righteousness of the Law would be required forever there would've been no need for him to say *he had to fulfill the Law!*

Man!! You fight against every thing I post, which is crystal clear. Look how many verses and Scriptures you use to prove your argument. AMAZING!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Man!! You fight against every thing I post, which is crystal clear. Look how many verses and Scriptures you use to prove your argument. AMAZING!

Your regular theme is an attempt to push an outdated Law upon Christians. No wonder I oppose every argument for this heretical view.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Matthew (22:37) Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. (38) This is the first and great commandment. (39) And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

One should note that by following the 1st and 2nd great commandment they will be adhering to the 10 commandments issued by Moses.

This is non-sequitur. Obeying Jesus in the 1st and 2nd Great Commandments does *not* mean adherance to the 10 Commandments, no!
The 10 Commandments are a subset of the Law of Moses. Under the New Covenant, which is an entirely different covenant, one can obey the 1st and 2nd Great Commandments without adhering to the 10 Commandments, which are a part of the Old Covenant.

If they love the Lord they won’t have any other Gods before him, or make any graven images or take his name in vain, they will remember his Sabbath...

Again, this does not follow. If a group loves the Lord as Christians they do not remember the Sabbath, which is a requirement under an outmoded covenant.

and if they love their neighbor they will honor their Father and Mother and they won’t kill or commit adultery or steal or bear false witness nor will they covet. This is why Jesus goes on to state that on these two commandments hang the law and the prophets. Because by fulfilling these two commandments one fulfills the law.

The Law, which is an outmoded Covenant, did hang on the 2 Great Commandments. But the 2 Great Commandments continue well past the cessation of the Old Covenant.

(9) Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

God was saying He will have mercy upon those who love Him to a thousand generations. He was *not* saying they will love Him for a thousand generations by keeping the commandments contained in the Law of Moses!

Note in verse (9) Moses states a condition that God requires in order for Him to keep covenant and have mercy. And that is an individual must love God and keep His commandments. The scriptures will show that there is only one way to love God and that is by keeping His commandments.

The commandments contained in the Law were valid while that covenant was still in force. It is no longer in force. God's commandments are different under the New Covenant, although the Law had pointed forward to them.

Some commandments remain the same simply because from the beginning God made Man to to live in His image and after His likeness. That doesn't change whether under the Old Covenant or under the New Covenant.

Note that Jesus states in the following verse that in order to love Him one has to keep His commandments.

John (14:15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.

The commandments were different when the Law was in effect. Some commandments remain the same under both covenants. We have to be clear under which covenant we're living when we say we're keeping God's commandments.

We cannot, for example, say we're obeying the Sabbath Law while at the same time claiming we're living under the New Covenant, because the Sabbath Law was an OT commandment.

Jesus further defines the love He requires when He states in the following verse that those who have His commandments and keep them are those that love Him. One does not have to guess at Jesus definition of love He made it clear.

John (14:21) He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Nobody is arguing the need to keep God's commandments. The critical point here is: what particular covenant is in force today? That would be the New Covenant of Christ--not the Old Covenant during which the Law of Moses was in effect. You want a biblical verse?....

John 1.16 Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

If you want to be under the Law, you will not have "grace and truth." Pushing the Law is pushing error. I don't need a ton of Scriptures to point this out.

Matt 17.4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.”
5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”

Push Jesus--not Moses!

 

[bro.tan]

This is non-sequitur. Obeying Jesus in the 1st and 2nd Great Commandments does *not* mean adherance to the 10 Commandments, no!
The 10 Commandments are a subset of the Law of Moses. Under the New Covenant, which is an entirely different covenant, one can obey the 1st and 2nd Great Commandments without adhering to the 10 Commandments, which are a part of the Old Covenant.

Again, this does not follow. If a group loves the Lord as Christians they do not remember the Sabbath, which is a requirement under an outmoded covenant.

The Law, which is an outmoded Covenant, did hang on the 2 Great Commandments. But the 2 Great Commandments continue well past the cessation of the Old Covenant.

God was saying He will have mercy upon those who love Him to a thousand generations. He was *not* saying they will love Him for a thousand generations by keeping the commandments contained in the Law of Moses!

The commandments contained in the Law were valid while that covenant was still in force. It is no longer in force. God's commandments are different under the New Covenant, although the Law had pointed forward to them.

Some commandments remain the same simply because from the beginning God made Man to to live in His image and after His likeness. That doesn't change whether under the Old Covenant or under the New Covenant.

The commandments were different when the Law was in effect. Some commandments remain the same under both covenants. We have to be clear under which covenant we're living when we say we're keeping God's commandments.

We cannot, for example, say we're obeying the Sabbath Law while at the same time claiming we're living under the New Covenant, because the Sabbath Law was an OT commandment.

Nobody is arguing the need to keep God's commandments. The critical point here is: what particular covenant is in force today? That would be the New Covenant of Christ--not the Old Covenant during which the Law of Moses was in effect. You want a biblical verse?....

John 1.16 Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

If you want to be under the Law, you will not have "grace and truth." Pushing the Law is pushing error. I don't need a ton of Scriptures to point this out.

Matt 17.4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.”
5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”

Push Jesus--not Moses!

When the bible speaks of laws we no longer have to keep, it is speaking of the animal sacrificial laws and Priesthood laws. These animal sacrificial laws were a school master pointing us to the fact that Jesus would be sacrificed for our sins. Since Jesus died we are no longer under a school master, (required to offer up bulls and goats for our sins).

Now we must believe (have faith) Jesus died for us (Hebrews 10:4,9-10) 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 9 then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

This doesn't mean we don't have to obey God's moral laws of conduct. That would be like a man getting paroled from prison and then ignoring the same laws that sent him to prison in the first place. Jesus only died once, so if we willingly break God's law, after accepting Jesus, our reward will be eternal damnation (Hebrews 10:26-27) 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 but this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 from henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

The point that is not understood is that we all have sin, but until Jesus came, there was no way of getting out from under your sins. So God institute a Priesthood and laws that went with the priesthood to control the sinning, and so the Lord use animal Sacrificial laws, even though it could not remove sins.

When Jesus died on the cross that was the end of the first covenant, which consisted of the blood of animals and the keeping of God’s commandments. And his death also brought in the second covenant, which consist of the blood of Jesus and the keeping of God’s commandments.

Let us avoid this at all costs, seeking a better reward. Jesus will return real soon And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. (Revelation 22:12).

 

[bro.tan]

Your regular theme is an attempt to push an outdated Law upon Christians. No wonder I oppose every argument for this heretical view.

We still must obey all of God's laws and statues of conduct, from the ten commandments to the least commandment. We cannot choose to obey one without obeying the others. For instance, if it's still good to pay tithes (as many preach), then it is still good to obey God's dietary law (not eating pork, catfish, etc...Leviticus 11:1-47). Similarly, you cannot purposely trip a blind person (Leviticus 19:14) and claim to love your neighbor as yourself. Neither can you break God's Sabbath days (Leviticus 19:30) and claim to love God with all your heart, soul and mind.

Many fight to uphold man's traditional holidays (Sunday the 1st day as the Sabbath, Christmas, Easter and Halloween), but few are obeying God's Holy Days (Saturday the 7th day Sabbath, the Passover, Pentecost, etc...Leviticus 23:1-44). All of God's laws are still good and must be obeyed if we want eternal life. We might not be able to observe everything perfectly, but can fight a good fight. Paul said in (1 Cor. 9:24-27) (v.24) Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. (v.25) And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown: but we an incorruptible. Paul says that when you run in a race every body is running for a prize. But this prize that he is referring to is eternal life, that’s what he means by an incorruptible, he’s talking about an incorruptible body, a heavenly body. (v.26) I therefore so run, not as uncertainly, so fight, not as one that beateth the air: (v.27) But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

You see Paul knew exactly what was going on that why he says he has to bring his body under subjection. Under subjection to what? To God’s Law, Paul knew that if he didn’t continue to keep Gods law that even after he had preached to many that he himself could still become a castaway. If we do this our prize awaits us at the end. "...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments" (Matthew 19:17).

 

[David1701]

We still must obey all of God's laws and statues of conduct, from the ten commandments to the least commandment. We cannot choose to obey one without obeying the others. For instance, if it's still good to pay tithes (as many preach), then it is still good to obey God's dietary law (not eating pork, catfish, etc...Leviticus 11:1-47). Similarly, you cannot purposely trip a blind person (Leviticus 19:14) and claim to love your neighbor as yourself. Neither can you break God's Sabbath days (Leviticus 19:30) and claim to love God with all your heart, soul and mind.

Many fight to uphold man's traditional holidays (Sunday the 1st day as the Sabbath, Christmas, Easter and Halloween), but few are obeying God's Holy Days (Saturday the 7th day Sabbath, the Passover, Pentecost, etc...Leviticus 23:1-44). All of God's laws are still good and must be obeyed if we want eternal life. We might not be able to observe everything perfectly, but can fight a good fight. Paul said in (1 Cor. 9:24-27) (v.24) Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. (v.25) And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown: but we an incorruptible. Paul says that when you run in a race every body is running for a prize. But this prize that he is referring to is eternal life, that’s what he means by an incorruptible, he’s talking about an incorruptible body, a heavenly body. (v.26) I therefore so run, not as uncertainly, so fight, not as one that beateth the air: (v.27) But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

You see Paul knew exactly what was going on that why he says he has to bring his body under subjection. Under subjection to what? To God’s Law, Paul knew that if he didn’t continue to keep Gods law that even after he had preached to many that he himself could still become a castaway. If we do this our prize awaits us at the end. "...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments" (Matthew 19:17).

2 Cor. 3:6-11 (KJV)
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

The ten commandments, written and engraved on stones, were the ministry of death and condemnation (because no-one could keep them to God's satisfaction, except the Lord Jesus Christ). We are now in the New Covenant, which is not of the letter (the law written on stones, which kills) but of the Spirit of God, who leads us to do what pleases God.

As many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God, not those who try to keep the ten commandments (they are under death and condemnation).

 

[Randy Kluth]

We still must obey all of God's laws and statues of conduct, from the ten commandments to the least commandment. We cannot choose to obey one without obeying the others. For instance, if it's still good to pay tithes (as many preach), then it is still good to obey God's dietary law (not eating pork, catfish, etc...Leviticus 11:1-47). Similarly, you cannot purposely trip a blind person (Leviticus 19:14) and claim to love your neighbor as yourself. Neither can you break God's Sabbath days (Leviticus 19:30) and claim to love God with all your heart, soul and mind.

You rightly, above, declare that we are now under the New Covenant, and not the Old Covenant. But you do not divide these covenants properly, in my opinion. You declare that the Old Covenant, which has been disbanded, consists of ceremonies, but not moral laws. And you are now saying, again, that the New Covenant consists of what you feel are "moral laws" that used to be attached to the Old Covenant.

You are right that some of the Old Covenant laws remain in effect under the New Covenant. But I've argued that even moral laws must be dfistinguished as either Old Covenant or New Covenant. Dietary laws, Holiday laws, Sabbath Law, etc. may be viewed as moral laws under the Old Covenant, but they are not moral laws under the New Covenant.

And so, promoting OT "moral laws" as NT Law, as well, is wrong, as I've indicated. Moral Law must not only be distinguished as no longer Old Covenant, but they must be completely severed from a system that relied on images of Christ before he came, including Sabbath Law, Holiday laws, Dietary laws, etc.

All of these Old Covenant laws were designed to stand in place before Christ came and fulfilled them. They were given to sinful Israel to temporarily restrain their sin in a way that fell short of total redemption, which came only through Christ. Moral Law, today, must be stripped of their Old Covenant context entirely if we are to truly put our faith in Christ alone for our atonement. Sabbath Law, for example, will show that we are still relying on our own works to enter into a rest that is really only possible by life in Christ alone.

Many fight to uphold man's traditional holidays (Sunday the 1st day as the Sabbath, Christmas, Easter and Halloween), but few are obeying God's Holy Days (Saturday the 7th day Sabbath, the Passover, Pentecost, etc...Leviticus 23:1-44). All of God's laws are still good and must be obeyed if we want eternal life.

This is pushing the Law of Moses as if it is New Covenant, and it isn't. While many Christians are ignorant or untrained in theology, pushing things like Sunday worship and Tithe-keeping, the reality is that we must rely on Christ alone, and on his works, in order to participate in them and obtain redemption in his name.

Christ did not live under the Law, strictly, but rather, fulfilled the Law. His righteousness preexisted the Law and fulfilled the Law, having no need to rely on the temporary means of restraining sin, which he did not have. Moral Law, for him, came from his Deity, and had no need to resort to the temporary legal remedies proposed under Moses.

You see Paul knew exactly what was going on that why he says he has to bring his body under subjection. Under subjection to what? To God’s Law,

No, Paul upheld the *righteousness of Christ,* as opposed to the Moral Law contained in the Old Covenant with Israel. This standard of righteousness contained, like the Law, Moral Law. But Paul's version is completely stripped from the Law of Moses, and focused only on Christ and his notion of Moral Law.

Moral Law continues in Christ, but it is not to be in any way confused with Moral Law under the Law of Moses. The Morality and the Spirituality may be the same. But all elements of Moral Law under the Law of Moses must be disassociated and discontinued, if we are to produce righteousness that is based only on Christ.

I don't know why you mix OT and NT Moral Law the way you do? You must have little confidence in how to demonstrate righteousness in Christ alone? You must be unable to follow the progress of Moral Law from Old Covenant to New Covenant, and be unable to understand Moral Law as it had existed *before* the Law of Moses was brought into being? The Bible plainly says it existed well before the Law, and in fact, from the beginning.

Rom 5.13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

Though this sounds, to the untrained, that Paul is arguing sin existed before the Law without any accountability he is, in fact, saying the opposite. The fact that death reigned over sinners even before the Law indicated that Moral Law existed prior to the Law of Moses.

As far as redemption Christians are not charged with responsibility to Moral Law, or they would be subject to eternal death. We are, instead, holding to Christ as the means of our accountability so that faith in his record is expressed in our moral commitment, relying on his perfection as access to Eternal Life. We live under Moral Law, but are not, by that means, being held accountable with respect to our eternal destiny.

 

[bro.tan]

2 Cor. 3:6-11 (KJV)
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

The ten commandments, written and engraved on stones, were the ministry of death and condemnation (because no-one could keep them to God's satisfaction, except the Lord Jesus Christ). We are now in the New Covenant, which is not of the letter (the law written on stones, which kills) but of the Spirit of God, who leads us to do what pleases God.

How do you get the ten Commandments out those verses. That's not talking about the ten Commandments, it's talking about something else.

As many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God, not those who try to keep the ten commandments (they are under death and condemnation).

When the bible speaks of laws we no longer have to keep, it is speaking of the animal sacrificial laws and Priesthood laws. These animal sacrificial laws were a school master pointing us to the fact that Jesus would be sacrificed for our sins. Since Jesus died we are no longer under a school master, (required to offer up bulls and goats for our sins).

Now we must believe (have faith) Jesus died for us (Hebrews 10:4,9-10) 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 9 then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

This doesn't mean we don't have to obey God's moral laws of conduct. That would be like a man getting paroled from prison and then ignoring the same laws that sent him to prison in the first place. Jesus only died once, so if we willingly break God's law, after accepting Jesus, our reward will be eternal damnation (Hebrews 10:26-27) 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 but this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 from henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

The point that is not understood is that we all have sin, but until Jesus came, there was no way of getting out from under your sins. So God institute a Priesthood and laws that went with the priesthood to control the sinning, and so the Lord use animal Sacrificial laws, even though it could not remove sins.

When Jesus died on the cross that was the end of the first covenant, which consisted of the blood of animals and the keeping of God’s commandments. And his death also brought in the second covenant, which consist of the blood of Jesus and the keeping of God’s commandments.

Let us avoid this at all costs, seeking a better reward. Jesus will return real soon And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. (Revelation 22:12).

 

[bro.tan]

You rightly, above, declare that we are now under the New Covenant, and not the Old Covenant. But you do not divide these covenants properly, in my opinion. You declare that the Old Covenant, which has been disbanded, consists of ceremonies, but not moral laws. And you are now saying, again, that the New Covenant consists of what you feel are "moral laws" that used to be attached to the Old Covenant.

You are right that some of the Old Covenant laws remain in effect under the New Covenant. But I've argued that even moral laws must be dfistinguished as either Old Covenant or New Covenant. Dietary laws, Holiday laws, Sabbath Law, etc. may be viewed as moral laws under the Old Covenant, but they are not moral laws under the New Covenant.

And so, promoting OT "moral laws" as NT Law, as well, is wrong, as I've indicated. Moral Law must not only be distinguished as no longer Old Covenant, but they must be completely severed from a system that relied on images of Christ before he came, including Sabbath Law, Holiday laws, Dietary laws, etc.

All of these Old Covenant laws were designed to stand in place before Christ came and fulfilled them. They were given to sinful Israel to temporarily restrain their sin in a way that fell short of total redemption, which came only through Christ. Moral Law, today, must be stripped of their Old Covenant context entirely if we are to truly put our faith in Christ alone for our atonement. Sabbath Law, for example, will show that we are still relying on our own works to enter into a rest that is really only possible by life in Christ alone.

This is pushing the Law of Moses as if it is New Covenant, and it isn't. While many Christians are ignorant or untrained in theology, pushing things like Sunday worship and Tithe-keeping, the reality is that we must rely on Christ alone, and on his works, in order to participate in them and obtain redemption in his name.

Christ did not live under the Law, strictly, but rather, fulfilled the Law. His righteousness preexisted the Law and fulfilled the Law, having no need to rely on the temporary means of restraining sin, which he did not have. Moral Law, for him, came from his Deity, and had no need to resort to the temporary legal remedies proposed under Moses.

No, Paul upheld the *righteousness of Christ,* as opposed to the Moral Law contained in the Old Covenant with Israel. This standard of righteousness contained, like the Law, Moral Law. But Paul's version is completely stripped from the Law of Moses, and focused only on Christ and his notion of Moral Law.

Moral Law continues in Christ, but it is not to be in any way confused with Moral Law under the Law of Moses. The Morality and the Spirituality may be the same. But all elements of Moral Law under the Law of Moses must be disassociated and discontinued, if we are to produce righteousness that is based only on Christ.

I don't know why you mix OT and NT Moral Law the way you do? You must have little confidence in how to demonstrate righteousness in Christ alone? You must be unable to follow the progress of Moral Law from Old Covenant to New Covenant, and be unable to understand Moral Law as it had existed *before* the Law of Moses was brought into being? The Bible plainly says it existed well before the Law, and in fact, from the beginning.

Rom 5.13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

Though this sounds, to the untrained, that Paul is arguing sin existed before the Law without any accountability he is, in fact, saying the opposite. The fact that death reigned over sinners even before the Law indicated that Moral Law existed prior to the Law of Moses.

As far as redemption Christians are not charged with responsibility to Moral Law, or they would be subject to eternal death. We are, instead, holding to Christ as the means of our accountability so that faith in his record is expressed in our moral commitment, relying on his perfection as access to Eternal Life. We live under Moral Law, but are not, by that means, being held accountable with respect to our eternal destiny.

Many fail to understand that the `New Covenant' includes a better way to implement the same set of laws that were given on Mt. Sinai, the Ten Commandments:

In the scriptures it written in (Jer.31: 31-33) (v.31) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: (v.32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: (v.33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Notice that the law was not prophesied to be done away, but rather to be “put into our hearts and minds.”

Let's go into the new testament, because Paul read Jeremiah in Hebrews 8: 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, When I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers

In the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt;

Because they continued not in my covenant, And I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel After those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, And write them in their hearts: And I will be to them a God, And they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, And every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: For all shall know me, From the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, And their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

In, (Is. 42:21) we find another prophecy concerning Christ and the law. It reads, (v.21) The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he (Jesus) will magnify the law, and make it honourable. When you magnify something you enlarge it and bring it out more of its detail and richness. Jesus revealed the fulfillment of this prophecy when he explained, (Mat.5:27-28) (v.27) Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: (v.28) But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart

By magnifying the law and making it honorable, the spiritual intent of the law is now emphasized which goes far beyond the mere the physical intent. God has raised His standards, not lowered them! All God ever wanted was what was best for us! He designed us to be His children. We are happiest when we love and obey Him. He is a God who is totally righteous and holy. God cannot sin. And He wants us to follow in His footsteps. The person that says, (1John:2:6) “that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.”

 

[David1701]

How do you get the ten Commandments out those verses. That's not talking about the ten Commandments, it's talking about something else.

The ten commandments were, famously, written and engraved on stones. The meaning is obvious.

When the bible speaks of laws we no longer have to keep, it is speaking of the animal sacrificial laws and Priesthood laws. These animal sacrificial laws were a school master pointing us to the fact that Jesus would be sacrificed for our sins. Since Jesus died we are no longer under a school master, (required to offer up bulls and goats for our sins).

Now we must believe (have faith) Jesus died for us (Hebrews 10:4,9-10) 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 9 then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

This doesn't mean we don't have to obey God's moral laws of conduct. That would be like a man getting paroled from prison and then ignoring the same laws that sent him to prison in the first place. Jesus only died once, so if we willingly break God's law, after accepting Jesus, our reward will be eternal damnation (Hebrews 10:26-27) 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 but this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 from henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

The point that is not understood is that we all have sin, but until Jesus came, there was no way of getting out from under your sins. So God institute a Priesthood and laws that went with the priesthood to control the sinning, and so the Lord use animal Sacrificial laws, even though it could not remove sins.

When Jesus died on the cross that was the end of the first covenant, which consisted of the blood of animals and the keeping of God’s commandments. And his death also brought in the second covenant, which consist of the blood of Jesus and the keeping of God’s commandments.

Let us avoid this at all costs, seeking a better reward. Jesus will return real soon And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. (Revelation 22:12).

In the New Covenant, we are not under law, full stop. Salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by law-keeping.

Yes, we are to keep the New Covenant commands; but, they are not on a principle of legal obligation (law); rather, they are like the things that a father tells his children to do.

Legalism is a bane on the churches, and it is every bit as bad as licence to sin.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Many fail to understand that the `New Covenant' includes a better way to implement the same set of laws that were given on Mt. Sinai, the Ten Commandments:///

The New Covenant implements the "same set of laws?" You've already gone on record as saying they aren't all the same, since they exclude Temple worship, animal sacrifices, and the Levitical priesthood. How do you explain the inconsistency of your statement? You, in effect, are contradicting your statement by saying that the New Covenant is the same as the Old Covenant--only more, and at the same time saying that they are different.

In the scriptures it written in (Jer.31: 31-33) (v.31) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: (v.32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: (v.33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

As I've been telling you, *all* of God's covenants require inward commitment. There is no distinction between Old and New Covenants based on "inward commitment." Any time the Old Covenant failed in Israel it was because they failed "inward commitment."

Notice that the law was not prophesied to be done away, but rather to be “put into our hearts and minds.”

Again, this "heart commitment" was not new and existed under the Old Covenant when it was successfully implemented. This is what you're using to make a false distinction between the Old and New Covenants. The New Covenant will be a restoration of "heart commitment," but it is said to be different from the Covenant made at Sinai.

The New Testament says that the New Covenant will change Temple Worship, Levitical Priesthood, and Animal Sacrifice. And all of the Moral Law will be transplanted into observance of Christ alone in terms of righteousness, who did not justify himself by living by a law that applied only to sinful people. Rather, Christ's righteousness rested in his Deity alone, along with a proper display of God's image. He was God's image--not the Law of Moses.

Let's go into the new testament, because Paul read Jeremiah in Hebrews 8: 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, When I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers

In the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt;

Because they continued not in my covenant, And I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel After those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, And write them in their hearts: And I will be to them a God, And they shall be to me a people:

Again, this is not distinguishing the Covenant in terms of law. Rather, it is distinguishing the New Covenant from the Old Covenant in terms of success. The Law of Moses ultimately failled because it was not based on Christ's performance but only on sin-tainted human performance. The New Covenant applies to those who commit fully to Christ, and not to the Law of Moses.

In, (Is. 42:21) we find another prophecy concerning Christ and the law. It reads, (v.21) The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he (Jesus) will magnify the law, and make it honourable. When you magnify something you enlarge it and bring it out more of its detail and richness. Jesus revealed the fulfillment of this prophecy when he explained, (Mat.5:27-28) (v.27) Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: (v.28) But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart

The way Jesus "magnified the Law of Moses" was by showing how it had intended to focus on inward commitment, which is what it had always been designed to be. Jesus was acting as a "Restoration Prophet," calling Israel back to what the Law was originally designed to do, to be a commitment from the heart.

This does not distinguish the New Covenant from the Old Covenant. It just magnified the fact that the Old Covenant was designed to be properly maintained until it was fulfilled in Christ. The fulfillment in Christ is what properly distinguished the New Covenant from the Old Covenant. You are trying, wrongly, to maintain the Old Covenant Law within the New Covenant standard, which is based not on the Law but on Christ alone.

Christ carries the Moral standards of the Law into his New Covenant. But he never retained their laws after the cross. Trying to maintain any law, based on the Old Covenant, is forbidden by Paul in the NT Scriptures.

The Law served sin-tainted Israel to show that apart from Christ nobody can obtain Eternal Life, and certainly not by attending to a Law that magnified human sin as an unpassable barrier to obtaining Eternal Life. We must go beyond the Law of Sin and Death if we are to be justified by Christ's record, which is based on his Deity and not on the Law of Moses.

By magnifying the law and making it honorable, the spiritual intent of the law is now emphasized which goes far beyond the mere the physical intent. God has raised His standards, not lowered them! All God ever wanted was what was best for us! He designed us to be His children. We are happiest when we love and obey Him. He is a God who is totally righteous and holy. God cannot sin. And He wants us to follow in His footsteps. The person that says, (1John:2:6) “that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.”

God did not need the Law of Moses to be sinless. Christ did not prove he was sinless by observing the Law--he was sinless from birth and even before birth. His system of justifying sinful mankind does not rest on his observance of the Law, but rather, on commitment to his internal righteousness. This results in Moral Law being portrayed, but not a Moral Law connected to the Law of Moses as an old, out-dated Covenant.

 

[bro.tan]

The New Covenant implements the "same set of laws?" You've already gone on record as saying they aren't all the same, since they exclude Temple worship, animal sacrifices, and the Levitical priesthood. How do you explain the inconsistency of your statement? You, in effect, are contradicting your statement by saying that the New Covenant is the same as the Old Covenant--only more, and at the same time saying that they are different.

As I've been telling you, *all* of God's covenants require inward commitment. There is no distinction between Old and New Covenants based on "inward commitment." Any time the Old Covenant failed in Israel it was because they failed "inward commitment."

Again, this "heart commitment" was not new and existed under the Old Covenant when it was successfully implemented. This is what you're using to make a false distinction between the Old and New Covenants. The New Covenant will be a restoration of "heart commitment," but it is said to be different from the Covenant made at Sinai.

The New Testament says that the New Covenant will change Temple Worship, Levitical Priesthood, and Animal Sacrifice. And all of the Moral Law will be transplanted into observance of Christ alone in terms of righteousness, who did not justify himself by living by a law that applied only to sinful people. Rather, Christ's righteousness rested in his Deity alone, along with a proper display of God's image. He was God's image--not the Law of Moses.

Again, this is not distinguishing the Covenant in terms of law. Rather, it is distinguishing the New Covenant from the Old Covenant in terms of success. The Law of Moses ultimately failled because it was not based on Christ's performance but only on sin-tainted human performance. The New Covenant applies to those who commit fully to Christ, and not to the Law of Moses.

The way Jesus "magnified the Law of Moses" was by showing how it had intended to focus on inward commitment, which is what it had always been designed to be. Jesus was acting as a "Restoration Prophet," calling Israel back to what the Law was originally designed to do, to be a commitment from the heart.

This does not distinguish the New Covenant from the Old Covenant. It just magnified the fact that the Old Covenant was designed to be properly maintained until it was fulfilled in Christ. The fulfillment in Christ is what properly distinguished the New Covenant from the Old Covenant. You are trying, wrongly, to maintain the Old Covenant Law within the New Covenant standard, which is based not on the Law but on Christ alone.

Christ carries the Moral standards of the Law into his New Covenant. But he never retained their laws after the cross. Trying to maintain any law, based on the Old Covenant, is forbidden by Paul in the NT Scriptures.

The Law served sin-tainted Israel to show that apart from Christ nobody can obtain Eternal Life, and certainly not by attending to a Law that magnified human sin as an unpassable barrier to obtaining Eternal Life. We must go beyond the Law of Sin and Death if we are to be justified by Christ's record, which is based on his Deity and not on the Law of Moses.

God did not need the Law of Moses to be sinless. Christ did not prove he was sinless by observing the Law--he was sinless from birth and even before birth. His system of justifying sinful mankind does not rest on his observance of the Law, but rather, on commitment to his internal righteousness. This results in Moral Law being portrayed, but not a Moral Law connected to the Law of Moses as an old, out-dated Covenant.

Throughout the bible we find that in order to receive eternal salvation we must keep God's commandments to the end. If we make a mistake we must not give up, but I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus (Philippians 3:13-14). The last chapter in the whole bible reminds us of this one last time. "Blessed are they that do his commandments that they may have right to the tree of life." (Revelation 22:14). After this we find only seven more verses in the bible, and none of them does away with God's commandments.

The commandments of God are not hard to keep (I John 5:3) and furthermore, they teach us love in the highest degree. If you love Jesus you will keep his commandments (St. John 14:15). You will not displease the Lord by: Worshipping other gods, having graven images, taking his name in vain, adhere to God's dietary laws in Lev.11ch, breaking his Sabbath day (which is Saturday not Sunday), or dishonoring your parents. On the other hand, if you love your neighbor as yourself you will not kill him, commit adultery with his spouse, steal from him, falsely accuse him, or covet anything of his. Stop committing fornication.

This is true love, and if obeyed how much better would our world be? This is why Jesus said that the two greatest commandments are loving the Lord with all your heart, soul, and mind; and loving your neighbor as yourself (Matthew 22:35-40). These two commandments are the foundation of the entire law. Many reject the law, but it is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good (Romans 7:12) even today.

 

[bro.tan]

The ten commandments were, famously, written and engraved on stones. The meaning is obvious.


In the New Covenant, we are not under law, full stop. Salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by law-keeping.

Yes, we are to keep the New Covenant commands; but, they are not on a principle of legal obligation (law); rather, they are like the things that a father tells his children to do.

Legalism is a bane on the churches, and it is every bit as bad as licence to sin.

Jesus brought grace when he came in the flesh, but example of grace was in the days of Noah. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. (Genesis 6:8), And Noah and his family was saved. Not save from eternal life, but saved from the flood. This is why Jesus had to come. Paul says in Hebrews 9: 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 26 for then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Now Paul said in (Rom. 3:23-25) (v.23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. (v.24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: (v.25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God.

So the bible tells you to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2 :36-38). And by doing so you come up under his precious blood and then you are saved from your sins that are past, not present or future sins but for sins that are past. We were all locked under death by Adam’s sin, even the second death, which is the lake of fire. But when Jesus became (he was God in the beginning) man and died for the sins of the world, he gave us access back to the tree of life (himself) which Adam had caused us to lose. That’s what grace is, our free gift our access back to the tree of life but that’s another lesson for another time.

So by coming under the blood of Jesus being baptize, you are saved from your past sins. And if you are saved now, it is on a day to day basis. Because for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (Romans 23:3), and if you continue to live you will sin again.

When the bible speaks of laws we no longer have to keep, it is speaking of the sacrificial laws and Priesthood laws. These animal sacrificial laws were a school master pointing us to the fact that Jesus would be sacrificed for our sins. Since Jesus died we are no longer under a school master, (required to offer up bulls and goats for our sins). Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. This animal sacrificial law was only a schoolmaster.(Gal 3:24)

Now we must believe (have faith) Jesus died for us (Hebrews 10:4,9-10) 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 9 then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

This doesn't mean we don't have to obey God's moral laws of conduct. That would be like a man getting paroled from prison and then ignoring the same laws that sent him to prison in the first place. Jesus only died once, so if we willingly break God's law, after accepting Jesus, our reward will be eternal damnation

It is the willful sinning that you need to put in check. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. (Hebrew 10: 26, 27)

 

[David1701]

Jesus brought grace when he came in the flesh, but example of grace was in the days of Noah. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. (Genesis 6:8), And Noah and his family was saved. Not save from eternal life, but saved from the flood. This is why Jesus had to come. Paul says in Hebrews 9: 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 26 for then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Now Paul said in (Rom. 3:23-25) (v.23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. (v.24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: (v.25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God.

So the bible tells you to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2 :36-38). And by doing so you come up under his precious blood and then you are saved from your sins that are past, not present or future sins but for sins that are past. We were all locked under death by Adam’s sin, even the second death, which is the lake of fire. But when Jesus became (he was God in the beginning) man and died for the sins of the world, he gave us access back to the tree of life (himself) which Adam had caused us to lose. That’s what grace is, our free gift our access back to the tree of life but that’s another lesson for another time.

So by coming under the blood of Jesus being baptize, you are saved from your past sins. And if you are saved now, it is on a day to day basis. Because for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (Romans 23:3), and if you continue to live you will sin again.

When the bible speaks of laws we no longer have to keep, it is speaking of the sacrificial laws and Priesthood laws. These animal sacrificial laws were a school master pointing us to the fact that Jesus would be sacrificed for our sins. Since Jesus died we are no longer under a school master, (required to offer up bulls and goats for our sins). Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. This animal sacrificial law was only a schoolmaster.(Gal 3:24)

Now we must believe (have faith) Jesus died for us (Hebrews 10:4,9-10) 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 9 then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

This doesn't mean we don't have to obey God's moral laws of conduct. That would be like a man getting paroled from prison and then ignoring the same laws that sent him to prison in the first place. Jesus only died once, so if we willingly break God's law, after accepting Jesus, our reward will be eternal damnation

It is the willful sinning that you need to put in check. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. (Hebrew 10: 26, 27)

You are teaching the maintenance of salvation by works, which is heretical.

That passage from Heb. 10 was written to Jews who had heard the gospel. If they rejected the gospel, having received the knowledge of the gospel, there were no longer any animal sacrifices for sins. In other words, it's talking about Jews who, having heard the gospel, reject it without going on to faith in the Messiah, telling them that they cannot be saved by returning to Judaism.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Throughout the bible we find that in order to receive eternal salvation we must keep God's commandments to the end.

You are not treating the real issue here. Does keeping God's commandments to the end "Justify us," or does it represent our faith in Christ's Justification? You are not answering this question.

We already know that keeping God's commandments represents our faith and how genuine it is. And we know that faith, in the sense of proviing its authenticity, is a form of repentance that obtains Eternal Life. But is it the record of our obedience that qualifies us, or the genuinieness of our faith?

Paul goes to great lengths to show that instead of justifying us for Eternal Salvation, the Law proved to Israel that they were unworthy of Eternal Salvation. So the Law *could not* be the basis of our justificaiton for Eternal Life!

The Law was just a stand in for Israel until Christ came and earned our Salvation through his Cross--not through the spotless observation of the Law, nor through observation of the Law at all. So, you're not addressing this when you say that the New Covenant expands the Law.

The commandments of God are not hard to keep (I John 5:3) and furthermore, they teach us love in the highest degree.

Again, this is a deceptive statement, or open to misconception. Jesus said obeying him is not overly burdensome. But he was not talking about the fact that the Law, as a system, disqualifies all of humanity from Eternal Salvation.

He was just stating that faith, in expressing a limited ability to follow the Law, qualifies us *through mercy.* He was stating that God never expected Israel to be perfect under the Law, and could obtain Salvation simply by an expression of genuine faith. This, of course, means that people of faith will obey God, even though imperfectly.

If you love Jesus you will keep his commandments (St. John 14:15). You will not displease the Lord by: Worshipping other gods, having graven images, taking his name in vain, adhere to God's dietary laws in Lev.11ch, breaking his Sabbath day (which is Saturday not Sunday), or dishonoring your parents. On the other hand, if you love your neighbor as yourself you will not kill him, commit adultery with his spouse, steal from him, falsely accuse him, or covet anything of his. Stop committing fornication.

You are confusing Moral Law with the Old Covenant system. The OT system did contain Moral Law, but Moral Law can and must exist apart from the OT system. Otherwise we are all doomed.

Nobody is questioning whether Christians should live by a Moral System. But there must be a denial that Christians live under the OT system, including its own Moral Law.

And that's because its Moral System is tied to the OT system disqualifying us from Eternal Life. We must transfer Morality to the New Covenant system alone, and abandon Sabbath Law, Temple Law, Sacrificial Law, Priestly Law, Dietary Law, Calendar Law, etc. etc.

Otherwise, we are banking on a system designed to disqualify us. The OT system intended to Justify us only by pointing us to the New Covenant system. All of our Moral Commandments are derived from Christ alone, and not from an outdated system designed to condemn us as lawl-breakers.

 

[bro.tan]

You are not treating the real issue here. Does keeping God's commandments to the end "Justify us," or does it represent our faith in Christ's Justification? You are not answering this question.

We already know that keeping God's commandments represents our faith and how genuine it is. And we know that faith, in the sense of proviing its authenticity, is a form of repentance that obtains Eternal Life. But is it the record of our obedience that qualifies us, or the genuinieness of our faith?

Paul goes to great lengths to show that instead of justifying us for Eternal Salvation, the Law proved to Israel that they were unworthy of Eternal Salvation. So the Law *could not* be the basis of our justificaiton for Eternal Life!

The Law was just a stand in for Israel until Christ came and earned our Salvation through his Cross--not through the spotless observation of the Law, nor through observation of the Law at all. So, you're not addressing this when you say that the New Covenant expands the Law.

Again, this is a deceptive statement, or open to misconception. Jesus said obeying him is not overly burdensome. But he was not talking about the fact that the Law, as a system, disqualifies all of humanity from Eternal Salvation.

He was just stating that faith, in expressing a limited ability to follow the Law, qualifies us *through mercy.* He was stating that God never expected Israel to be perfect under the Law, and could obtain Salvation simply by an expression of genuine faith. This, of course, means that people of faith will obey God, even though imperfectly.

You are confusing Moral Law with the Old Covenant system. The OT system did contain Moral Law, but Moral Law can and must exist apart from the OT system. Otherwise we are all doomed.

Nobody is questioning whether Christians should live by a Moral System. But there must be a denial that Christians live under the OT system, including its own Moral Law.

And that's because its Moral System is tied to the OT system disqualifying us from Eternal Life. We must transfer Morality to the New Covenant system alone, and abandon Sabbath Law, Temple Law, Sacrificial Law, Priestly Law, Dietary Law, Calendar Law, etc. etc.

Otherwise, we are banking on a system designed to disqualify us. The OT system intended to Justify us only by pointing us to the New Covenant system. All of our Moral Commandments are derived from Christ alone, and not from an outdated system designed to condemn us as lawl-breakers.

A man asked Jesus this very question, "...What good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?", and Jesus replied, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (Matthew 19:16-19).

This was a direct answer to a direct question, which all of us will do well to take heed to. Anybody can claim to have faith, but actions speak louder than words. Faith and works go together and you can't have one without the other. "Here is the patience of the saints; here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12).

Now let's go into 1 Thessalonians 3: 12 And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you: 13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

So the Saints who keep the Commandments of God is coming back with Jesus, or maybe you will want to come in the white throne Judgement n Revelation 20: 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. ,14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So you decide which one you rather come under....keeping the Commandments like the Saints, or the White throne Judgements

 

[bro.tan]

You are teaching the maintenance of salvation by works, which is heretical.

That passage from Heb. 10 was written to Jews who had heard the gospel. If they rejected the gospel, having received the knowledge of the gospel, there were no longer any animal sacrifices for sins. In other words, it's talking about Jews who, having heard the gospel, reject it without going on to faith in the Messiah, telling them that they cannot be saved by returning to Judaism.

Animal sacrifices was works the priesthood had to do, because of sin. Paul said in (Gal. 6) (v.3) For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself. (v.4) But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.

The book says let every man prove his own work, and if your work is good then you will rejoice in it. (v.5) For every man shall bear his own burden. That’s right; every man must bear his own burden. You mean you thought that all you had to do was confess the name of Jesus and that was it? You must work to get salvation. (v.7) Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. God is not to be played with. Whatsoever you plant, that’s what you are going to reap. Be it good works unto eternal life, or evil works unto eternal damnation. The choice is yours, and your works belong to you.

Jesus said in (Matt. 16:24-27) (v.24) Then said Jesus unto his disciples, if any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. That was the Lord’s burden, to die on the cross for the sins of man. Now as we read earlier every man must bear his own burden, and what is your burden? (v.25) For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. You must give up your life in this world; you must not get caught up in the cares of this world. You must bring forth-good fruits of faith by keeping God’s commandments, statues, and judgments. (v.26) For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?