What is the purpose of Grace?

[Episkopos]

Episkopos, could you use your own words or phrasing or explanation to explain Hebrews 10:14 to me? I am thinking I remember you somewhere saying it means: “has perfected into forever” but I’m particularly wondering about those who are “BEING sanctified.” I would think they would all adore that verse but I am wondering if “being” should really be there…

The bible has to be understood in context...otherwise one verse that sounds different can overthrow our understanding. Dogmatic believers allow this to happen. But God HATES a false balance.

Those who are "being" sanctified...doesn't have to mean that each person is undergoing a slow sanctification over time. That is the excuse people give for not seeking the Lord and YET still claiming to be holy...at least partially. But there is no partial holiness....even in cleansing...there is no partial cleansing. As in...I'm going to take a partial shower...

Even in forgiveness, we never see a partial forgiveness. And the verse that comes to mind is...

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 Jon 1:9

And we are not even talking about holiness yet. The Bible interprets the bible.

So then those who are "being" sanctified has to be seen as what is going on in the world presently. People are being sanctified. If I say...people are being killed in the war...does that mean that they are undergoing a slow death process over years? So then the word "being" just means an active and ongoing action that is presently happening.


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[MostlyConfused]

The bible has to be understood in context...otherwise one verse that sounds different can overthrow our understanding. Dogmatic believers allow this to happen. But God HATES a false balance.

Those who are "being" sanctified...doesn't have to mean that each person is undergoing a slow sanctification over time. That is the excuse people give for not seeking the Lord and YET still claiming to be holy...at least partially. But there is no partial holiness....even in cleansing...there is no partial cleansing. As in...I'm going to take a partial shower...

Even in forgiveness, we never see a partial forgiveness. And the verse that comes to mind is...

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 Jon 1:9

And we are not even talking about holiness yet. The Bible interprets the bible.

So then those who are "being" sanctified has to be seen as what is going on in the world presently. People are being sanctified. If I say...people are being killed in the war...does that mean that they are undergoing a slow death process over years? So then the word "being" just means an active and ongoing action that is presently happening.


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But didnt you somewhere say that sanctification and holiness are not the same thing? That sanctification is a process where God is transforming you and preparing you for His use and holiness is the…culmination or…end?
That makes “being sanctified” make sense but THEN the FIRST part of the verse seems wrong…
It suddenly occurs to me that maybe Esther could help me here. She was “being prepared” for the kings use and then, after that, he extended his scepter to let her approach.

 

[Episkopos]

But didnt you somewhere say that sanctification and holiness are not the same thing? That sanctification is a process where God is transforming you and preparing you for His use and holiness is the…culmination or…end?

I actually said that they are the same thing. Holiness is not a process. And neither is sanctification. Sanctification just means "making holy".

The bible could say..."your holiness" instead of "your sanctification"...although to say your holiness sounds like a title or something coming from us.

That makes “being sanctified” make sense but THEN the FIRST part of the verse seems wrong…
It suddenly occurs to me that maybe Esther could help me here. She was “being prepared” for the kings use and then, after that, he extended his scepter to let her approach.

We are cleansed from sin before we can enter into holiness. Water and then the Spirit.

 

[MostlyConfused]

The only other thing that would seem to reconcile it for me is if the word should be “holy.” As in, Has perfected into forever those who are “being holy” as in, they are currently in that state of being holy because He took them into Himself.

 

[MostlyConfused]

Oh, okay. I made Up you saying something in my head! I totter about a lot!

 

[MostlyConfused]

Laurina, have you read Spiritual Torrents yet, by Guyon. I’m on my third reading and there is a lot I see each time. I got the actual book this time rather than the free pdf. It’s a worthy little book.

 

[Laurina]

Laurina, have you read Spiritual Torrents yet, by Guyon. I’m on my third reading and there is a lot I see each time. I got the actual book this time rather than the free pdf. It’s a worthy little book.

No, I'll have to get it!! Thanks! I just ordered and received her "Final Steps in Christian Maturity", and "Experiencing the Depths of Jesus Christ". I read her Autobiography five times over, it helped me so much!!
Right now I'm reading St. Francis de Sales, in "An Introduction to a Devout Life" and also, St. Therese of Lisieux: The Story of a Soul".

 

[MostlyConfused]

Ah, de Sales. I have only a little booklet of his, might be called…Spiritual Counsels I think.Has helped and encouraged mea lot. You read good books sister.

 

[Lizbeth]

That sentence is the whole problem. You said the deeper things are not explicitly stated in the scriptures and have to be mined out. That is not how God teaches doctrine. That is how a man makes something up and then says the Spirit showed him.

If that door is open then anybody can do it. He can take Jordan, or Lazarus, or a slave at a doorpost, say it must mean something, and then call you carnal when you ask where the bible actually says it. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar ~Proverbs 30:6. The secret things belong unto the LORD our God, but those things which are revealed belong unto us ~Deuteronomy 29:29. To the law and to the testimony, if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them ~Isaiah 8:20. You will answer to God for what you add.

I think you are mixing growth with a second entrance and the text does not do that. He hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son ~Colossians 1:13. By one Spirit are we all baptized into one body ~1 Corinthians 12:13. If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature ~2 Corinthians 5:17. Paul called the Corinthians babes in Christ when they were still carnal ~1 Corinthians 3:1. They were already in Christ. That is not Jordan number two.

Jesus said he that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit ~John 13:10. The bath already happened. John said he will throughly purge his floor, wheat into the garner, chaff burned with unquenchable fire ~Matthew 3:12. That is not a hidden second blessing. Those Old Testament things were written so we would not lust after evil things as they also lusted ~1 Corinthians 10:6. Paul never said the second river is another way into Jesus.

1 Corinthians 2 does not give you cover. Not to think above that which is written ~1 Corinthians 4:6. Try the spirits ~1 John 4:1. The Bereans searched the scriptures daily whether those things were so ~Acts 17:11. Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God ~Romans 10:17. Holiness matters, without which no man shall see the Lord ~Hebrews 12:14, but holiness is not a license to preach what God did not say.

I'm not adding to His words or going beyond what is written.....it is His word revealed. The revealed things belong to us....but do you or does anyone understand everything in the bible? No, because it hasn't all been revealed to us (yet). The Holy Spirit LEADS us into all truth....we are in process of learning/growing in understanding. HE illuminates the word....as a light unto our path and lamp unto our feet as we grow.

We HAVE been translated into the kingdom of God, yes, but ALSO........it says in Acts 14:22, that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. So we have been translated into it, but still are endeavouring and seeking to enter. And we HAVE received the righteousness of God, but we are still admonished to SEEK righteousness and the kingdom. It is also like where it says, all things HAVE been put under the feet of Christ, but we do not yet (necessarily) SEE all things put under Him. I call it the yes, but not necessarily yet of things. We need to be seeking to apprehend in real time, get hold of, enter into, these things that HAVE been laid up in heaven (spiritual realm where God dwells) for us. Run the race so as to win the prize.

Another example is where it says we must not "seem" to come short of entering His rest, even though it ALSO says that we who believe DO enter His rest. It still remains that we are to enter it in real time, even though spiritually we have entered it. And the bible says we ARE complete in Him.........but it also says He who began a good work in us WILL be faithful to complete it. I think of it like we have received the complete seed which contains everything that is being spoken, but it remains that that seed needs to grow until it finally bears ripened fruit.......bringing fruit to perfection as the bible says. Another way I think of it is that we do have some spiritual fruit, but it needs to mature and ripen until the husbandman comes to harvest it (take possession) for His use.

 

[Lizbeth]

This is excellent! I have experienced this to a smaller degree but am watching and praying for a full infusion. It cost all but the return is well worth it. The refreshing coolness of God's presence is all we need.

(have to put a scriptural reference for those with a mechanical understanding)

Jn 7:37-38
If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

You "have" to put a scriptural reference for those with a "mechanical" understanding......? David being a man after God's own heart CHERISHED the word of God. And God Himself esteems His word over all His name.

I hope everyone will guard their hearts. It is troubling to me when I see precious holy things being talked about as casually as one would discuss and pick apart the workings of their new car. And people who are holy don't boast in their experiences, they step away and let the Lord receive all the glory. They let the fruits speak for themselves, and let God confirm them, not the people themselves......see how Jesus spoke of Himself in John 5. I've seen this sort of thing before and know it to be a wrong way....I was going down that road once and found myself missing JESUS, because He WASN'T IN IT.

If something is from God it will be in SPIRIT. That is the only difference between the real and the counterfeit. The real things are in Spirit, the counterfeit is those very same things being in the flesh. We are not to touch the holy things (ark) with hands of flesh.

 

[Lizbeth]

No, I'll have to get it!! Thanks! I just ordered and received her "Final Steps in Christian Maturity", and "Experiencing the Depths of Jesus Christ". I read her Autobiography five times over, it helped me so much!!
Right now I'm reading St. Francis de Sales, in "An Introduction to a Devout Life" and also, St. Therese of Lisieux: The Story of a Soul".

Be careful of relying on other people too much instead of God. If any lacks wisdom we can ask the Lord and He will give it freely, and I've found Him to be true to His word.

I want to tell you and @MostlyConfused about something. I found myself in a thread one day where one of Epi's most ardent supporters was fawning over someone just because they were Catholic......at that same time the Lord gave me such a strong download from heaven that it literally short-circuited my brain.......saying that the ruling spirit of the Catholic church IS NOT THE HOLY SPIRIT. So I want to say be careful with what you are imbibing sisters. The old frog in the pot proverb slowly warming to a boil, comes to mind. Wrestling not with flesh and blood but with powers and principalities in HIGH places.

 

[shepherdsword]

You "have" to put a scriptural reference for those with a "mechanical" understanding......? David being a man after God's own heart CHERISHED the word of God. And God Himself esteems His word over all His name.

I hope everyone will guard their hearts. It is troubling to me when I see precious holy things being talked about as casually as one would discuss and pick apart the workings of their new car. And people who are holy don't boast in their experiences, they step away and let the Lord receive all the glory. They let the fruits speak for themselves, and let God confirm them, not the people themselves......see how Jesus spoke of Himself in John 5. I've seen this sort of thing before and know it to be a wrong way....I was going down that road once and found myself missing JESUS, because He WASN'T IN IT.

If something is from God it will be in SPIRIT. That is the only difference between the real and the counterfeit. The real things are in Spirit, the counterfeit is those very same things being in the flesh. We are not to touch the holy things (ark) with hands of flesh.

I don't think you understand. You are projecting your deceptive experience onto others. Don't be so haughty and assume everyone is like you. You are trying to speak into things that are too high for you.
Here is a good word for you

Ps 131:1
Lord, my heart is not haughty, nor mine eyes lofty: neither do I exercise myself in great matters, or in things too high for me.

 

[ProDeo]

Be careful of relying on other people too much instead of God. If any lacks wisdom we can ask the Lord and He will give it freely, and I've found Him to be true to His word.

I want to tell you and @MostlyConfused about something. I found myself in a thread one day where one of Epi's most ardent supporters was fawning over someone just because they were Catholic......at that same time the Lord gave me such a strong download from heaven that it literally short-circuited my brain.......saying that the ruling spirit of the Catholic church IS NOT THE HOLY SPIRIT. So I want to say be careful with what you are imbibing sisters. The old frog in the pot proverb slowly warming to a boil, comes to mind. Wrestling not with flesh and blood but with powers and principalities in HIGH places.

I agree with your warning. There is only one Person who is allowed to dig deep into my soul, the Holy Spirit.

 

[Lizbeth]

Complicated? So, basically you haven't a clue. You combine both ignorance and arrogance in your posts. You have simply been indoctrinated by men...and that makes you think that others need to carry your lunch pail? How hypocritical.

It's easy...grace is the "power of God us-ward who believe" according to Paul.

I dont' think, from scripture, that grace is just power alone..........it is more the graciousness - favour and good will - of God towards us from which everything good flows to us......whether salvation, forgiveness, mercy, provision, power, protection, strength, spiritual gifts, etc.

And I see His purpose ultimately being to glorify Himself, because He is worthy.....to display and make His virtues and superiority known to the powers and principalities, through His church. It's not all about us or for us.

 

[Lizbeth]

I don't think you understand. You are projecting your deceptive experience onto others. Don't be so haughty and assume everyone is like you. You are trying to speak into things that are too high for you.
Here is a good word for you

Ps 131:1
Lord, my heart is not haughty, nor mine eyes lofty: neither do I exercise myself in great matters, or in things too high for me.

You just let me know what part of my post you disagree with then brother. That for something to be of God it needs to be in Spirit and not in the flesh? That if we are in the flesh concerning something it leads to death? Do you disagree with that? I'm cautioning people that they need to be in Spirit with the things of God. Is that wrong?

 

[MostlyConfused]

Be careful of relying on other people too much instead of God. If any lacks wisdom we can ask the Lord and He will give it freely, and I've found Him to be true to His word.

I want to tell you and @MostlyConfused about something. I found myself in a thread one day where one of Epi's most ardent supporters was fawning over someone just because they were Catholic......at that same time the Lord gave me such a strong download from heaven that it literally short-circuited my brain.......saying that the ruling spirit of the Catholic church IS NOT THE HOLY SPIRIT. So I want to say be careful with what you are imbibing sisters. The old frog in the pot proverb slowly warming to a boil, comes to mind. Wrestling not with flesh and blood but with powers and principalities in HIGH places.

There’s a lion outside! Don’t go out there’s a lion in the streets!

 

[MostlyConfused]

So we have been translated into it, but still are endeavouring and seeking to enter.

That’s like saying, Lunch is ready everyone! But I’m also not done making lunch yet.
And I have not seen that man boast ANYWHERE! In fact, he seems to me to even be Leary of having his posts liked. And we have already been through fear of our own arrogance and flesh and you probably can’t dampen any of us in this as God begins to give us peace. And hope. And some stirrings of joy after such agonies.

 

[ProDeo]

In general, to all participants in this thread -

Rom 8:14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!”
Rom 8:16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

We are told to live our lives in the Spirit by faith. And I assume everybody does.

And now for question, why actively looking for more experiences with God than you actually already got. Sure, it feels great but those experiences always came on the initiative of the Spirit, not by ourselves, not because we ask for more.

Okay, touchy subject, I know.

 

[MostlyConfused]

You "have" to put a scriptural reference for those with a "mechanical" understanding......? David being a man after God's own heart CHERISHED the word of God. And God Himself esteems His word over all His name.

I hope everyone will guard their hearts. It is troubling to me when I see precious holy things being talked about as casually as one would discuss and pick apart the workings of their new car. And people who are holy don't boast in their experiences, they step away and let the Lord receive all the glory. They let the fruits speak for themselves, and let God confirm them, not the people themselves......see how Jesus spoke of Himself in John 5. I've seen this sort of thing before and know it to be a wrong way....I was going down that road once and found myself missing JESUS, because He WASN'T IN IT.

If something is from God it will be in SPIRIT. That is the only difference between the real and the counterfeit. The real things are in Spirit, the counterfeit is those very same things being in the flesh. We are not to touch the holy things (ark) with hands of flesh.

This is a refusing to enter in and also trying to stop others.

 

[shepherdsword]

You just let me know what part of my post you disagree with then brother. That for something to be of God it needs to be in Spirit and not in the flesh? That if we are in the flesh concerning something it leads to death? Do you disagree with that? I'm cautioning people that they need to be in Spirit with the things of God. Is that wrong?

And people who are holy don't boast in their experiences, they step away and let the Lord receive all the glory.

Who is boasting? It's a testimony to God's power and He is getting all the glory

They let the fruits speak for themselves, and let God confirm them, not the people themselves......

We overcome by three things. 1) the blood of the lamb 2) the word of our testimony 3) we love not our lives to the end.
testifying of a blessing is not bragging or arrogant.

see how Jesus spoke of Himself in John 5.

Jesus spoke many things in John 5 ...can you point out the precise instance that supports your accusation that giving a testimony about an experience is pride?

I've seen this sort of thing before and know it to be a wrong way....I was going down that road once and found myself missing JESUS, because He WASN'T IN IT.

You have seen what "things"? What are you judging as wrong? What makes you think I am going down a road that is missing Jesus? How do you know Jesus wasn't in my testimony? You see, THIS is where YOU are being arrogant.