1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

WHAT IS THE SIN UNTO DEATH?

Discussion in 'Fellowship Forum' started by Nancy, Jul 26, 2020.

  1. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

    Messages:
    31,535
    Likes Received:
    11,084
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States Minor Outlying Islands
    hmm, maybe
    seems to violate good fruit comes from good trees though, on some level...dunno
     
  2. CadyandZoe

    CadyandZoe Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,470
    Likes Received:
    567
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

    Bear in mind John's subject matter in this paragraph: "sin unto death." John isn't saying that a child of God will never sin at all. In the context, John is saying that a child of God will not sin unto death. No one who is born of God will commit the sin unto death. Why? Because God keeps him and the evil one does not touch him.
     
    CharismaticLady likes this.
  3. icxn

    icxn Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    235
    Likes Received:
    354
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Think of it (the cold one) as a good and healthy tree at spring time. It doesn't have fruit yet, but the blossoming of repentance foretells of a plentiful harvest. Such were the publicans, the harlots, the thief on the cross... the minute they repented (turned cold to sin), Christ accepted them. The Pharisees on the other hand, even though they had some fruit, because they loved money and honors they were rejected. They were like sick trees with worm festering fruit.

    Christ spoke of hot and cold in a positive sense so they can't be taken as opposite ends of a shared analogy/perspective - as we usually use them. That is why this verse is somewhat perplexing.
     
    Waiting on him likes this.
  4. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,793
    Likes Received:
    5,496
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    The wind came and blew and their premature fruit fell to the ground.

    Untimely.
     
  5. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,793
    Likes Received:
    5,496
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Had they came to Christ, they'd by now been some Two thousand year old trees for the healing of the nation's.
     
  6. icxn

    icxn Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    235
    Likes Received:
    354
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    All very good metaphors. (Mark 12:34)
     
  7. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    20,820
    Likes Received:
    12,489
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Are we not already Christ's body? Is that not what the Scriptures say?

    Much love!
     
  8. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    20,820
    Likes Received:
    12,489
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    While I don't have any disagreement here . . . I would like to add a different answer . . .

    1 John 3
    2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
    3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

    Every man that has 'this hope' purifies himself, even as he is pure. "This hope" is this: We know that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

    When Jesus appears, we will see him, and that will make us to become like him. And we know this. We know this is true, and will happen. And knowing that this is true, and will happen, causes us to live more pure lives, to have more pure minds.

    Jude wrote something similar:

    20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
    21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

    Looking for mercy from Jesus unto eternal live, this keeps us in the love of God.

    We look for mercy and grace when Jesus returns. We know KNOW that when He returns, when we see Him, we will become just like him, just as even now, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, we are being transformed into that same image.

    Much love!
     
    amadeus likes this.
  9. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    18,434
    Likes Received:
    24,864
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Do we [the body of believers] now always know His voice? "And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice." John 10:4

    Do we [the body of believers] never know the voice of strangers?
    "And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers." John 10:5

    Are we now already "...a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." Eph 5:27???

    Are we now already subject always to our Head "...as the church is subject unto Christ... in every thing" Eph 5:24?

    What is meant or understood by the highlighted phrase in this verse? "Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him." Heb 2:8

    What is the Body of Christ? Is it not what Jesus said was lacking here?

    "...the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." Matt 8:20

    So then he was going to work on a place where and for whom...?

    "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
    In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
    And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." John 14:1-3

    When all the work on and in each part of the Body of Christ is done where will the parts be and where will Jesus be? Is not the God working on the Body of Christ now in each one of us who is allowing Him to work while there is still time? And the end result is to be?

    "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
    That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." John 17:20-21
     
  10. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    18,434
    Likes Received:
    24,864
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Yes, indeed!

    "Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
    Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
    A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
    Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
    Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." Matt 7:16-20

    And man being most of the time in violation claims to be a "good tree", does he not?


    "But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
    Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
    Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
    Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?
    Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh." James 3:8-12

    No, such things ought not to be, but as James points out they most certainly are and does not Paul effectively say the same thing here?

    "If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
    That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
    And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
    And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness." Eph 4:21-24

    And was Solomon saying something different here?

    "Wisdom hath builded her house... She hath killed her beasts..." Prov 9:1-2

    Indeed our unruly tongues need to be tamed, the conversation of our old man need to be put off, and our beasts all need to be killed!
     
    bbyrd009 likes this.
  11. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    18,434
    Likes Received:
    24,864
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Yes, what you wrote is so, and/or is becoming so, for those walking with Him to the end of their road/course. Whether or not we are included, or are to be included in that walk, does depend upon whom we are dependent. Alone we can do nothing, but we can choose to not always lean on Him!

    "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
    In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
    Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil." Prov 3:5-7
     
  12. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    20,820
    Likes Received:
    12,489
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Hi Amadeus,

    And yet, what John wrote was that the certainty that this is our future is what leads us to live pure lives now.
    When we question whether this will really be true, what does that mean to our lives now?

    Much love!
     
  13. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    18,434
    Likes Received:
    24,864
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    What it means to our lives now depends upon what we are doing now to be included in the "us".

    The following words Jesus applied to himself:

    "I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work" John 9:4


    In order to like him should we do something different?

     
  14. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,793
    Likes Received:
    5,496
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    When He appears in my opinion is the question. When I read Paul I see Christ in him and I'm certain He appeard to him. Possibly most are awaiting an appearance that has already taken place?
     
  15. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

    Messages:
    31,535
    Likes Received:
    11,084
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States Minor Outlying Islands
    ok, sorry, what i meant was "maybe, but as there was then a literal law of sin and death, i think that it should at least be contemplated that the more correct answer might be the more practical one." Ppl got stoned to death for lying back then i guess?
     
    Waiting on him likes this.
  16. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

    Messages:
    31,535
    Likes Received:
    11,084
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States Minor Outlying Islands
    hmm, for whatever reason im still not hearing that little inaudible "click" lol...i mean, what would hot be then, in that analogy? ty
     
  17. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

    Messages:
    31,535
    Likes Received:
    11,084
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States Minor Outlying Islands
    whats your take on the hotcold deal? im wondering now if like apathy is not being addressed maybe
     
  18. icxn

    icxn Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    235
    Likes Received:
    354
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    The good and healthy tree at harvest time.
     
  19. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,048
    Likes Received:
    3,707
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    I don't have a solid view on it myself. I perused the thread perhaps too casually, but no one (that I noticed) raised a question that goes round in my mind. It seems to me that if I could understand the passage before "sin unto death" is mentioned, I'd have a better chance of understanding it.

    1 John 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
    15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.
    16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
    17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.


    I write tentatively and not dogmatically. If I see someone sinning (and I am willing to count non-Christians among my brothers since we all have Adam as a father), I can ask for that sin to be forgiven, and it will be. Do I have that right? I think I do if I have the right relationship with God.

    John 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

    If we love someone else, it creates a tie. Bits of our identity are exchanged. I would not be complete in Heaven if that person was missing.

    Compare this to why God gave the Land of Promise to Israel -- not on their own account!

    Deuteronomy 9:5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the Lord sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
    6 Understand therefore, that the Lord thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.


    It compares to something Paul wrote as well about the "law of Christ."

    Galatians 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

    The mature Christian is to help bear the burdens of the "babes in Christ" -- it seems to me. Eventually that relationship is to stop and does when the "babe" grows up.

    Galatians 6:4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.
    5 For every man shall bear his own burden.

    Are their limits to the burdens a Christian should bear for others? I think 1 John 5:16 says yes. If you could lay down your life to save someone else and it worked, that would be acceptable, wouldn't it?

    John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

    It becomes unacceptable with a certain type of sin. Suppose I had a friend on drugs who had no job, no place to live and with next to nothing to look forward to. I offer him a place to live so he can wash up to get a job, so he can use my phone and address. What should I do if he abuses my kindness? What if he steals from me to buy drugs? What if he gets a job and then blows his first paycheck on drugs? I don't think it would help to keep subsidizing him. He's on a course to death. I should not jeopardize my own welfare and waste resources on him when they could do good elsewhere.

    There are four types of relationships: Returning good for good and returning evil for evil are easy to understand. Returning good for evil usually works by breaking down the other person's distrust of others -- if he believes love is not really possible, you may convince him it is. You have helped bring him to his senses and back to the realization he is a child of God. The fourth type is horrifying: Someone receives good from you and returns evil. This person knows what good is. He knows you are a good person, and he sees you as a victim.

    Not everyone can sin against the Holy Spirit. You have to know what it is first. The religious leaders Jesus criticized knew what the Holy Spirit was, and they knew Jesus had it. They knew because they once had the Spirit themselves; but looking around, they were tempted to betray the Holy Spirit for money, influence and maybe sex. They treated ordinary Jews like sheep to be fleeced. It was easy to do until Jesus came along, making them feel threatened. When they saw the good in Jesus and called it evil, they were betraying themselves as well as sinning against the Spirit. This can reach a point of no return where someone is spiritually insane.

    You are wasting your time praying for people who return evil for good; and you are endangering yourself spiritually by tying yourself to them. They can be like vampires sucking the Life and Light out of you. I cannot tell anyone where the line gets drawn; but I've reached it a few times -- I simply gave up completely on some people. I loved them once, but I cut those ties -- if they choose the path to hell, I will not pray for them, I will not be dragged down with them by tying my fate to theirs. Maybe Paul would call it delivering them to Satan.

    Does it mean those people are going to be eternally damned? I don't think so. If I stop enabling them, that might make them shape up. I don't count on it; but if enough people stopped enabling them, they would have a better chance at seeing the errors of their ways than if they continue to view good people as prey. What it may mean is that no one will bear their burdens for them -- not me, not Jesus, not anyone. They will pay a penalty then.

    Jesus tells an interesting story about a man who was forgiven of his debts. He finds out later his master undoes that "forgiveness" and demands payment in full. This wicked man liked "goodness" when he was receiving it, but he had no pity for others and resisted "goodness" when it would "cost" him something. I think this man committed the sin without pardon -- no pardon -- he will have to pay himself.

    Matthew 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
    33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
    34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
    35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

    Shakespeare wrote: "He that dies pays all debts." I think there is a similar Jewish saying. Body and soul may be destroyed, but the spirit can still be saved.
     
    Nancy and amadeus like this.
  20. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,793
    Likes Received:
    5,496
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Good post, you've also made me consider a few things

    First off this sin is an outward sin which can be observed which seems strange to me

    The other is the scribes and Pharisees deliberately change the word to balesabub from balesabul.
     
    Giuliano likes this.
Loading...