What is the third woe?

[veteran]

He was speaking to HIS APOSTLES! Did you miss that point? Again, go back to Daniel 9 and see WHO the 70th week is for: Daniel tells us it was for HIS PEOPLE. Why is this so hard for you to understand? It is NOT ABOUT the church at all, it is about the JEWS. Your blinders (preconceptions) have blinded you to the fact that PAUL's rapture gathers at a time of peace and safety, and is the trigger for the day. Veteran, EVERYONE knows the trigger comes before the blast! The rapture comes BEFORE the day of the Lord. Paul's rapture gathers from EARTH, not heaven. There is simply NO WAY one can prove that the gathering in Matt. 24 is the church, and several ways one can prove it cannot be. What age where they IN? Jesus was the final prophet of the Old Covenant. They asked what would be the sign for the end of the age: THEIR age. The end of THEIR age would be the Day of the Lord and the 70th week, which has NOTHING to do with the church. That is why John shows us the church in heaven, around the throne, in chapter 7, BEFORE John even begins the Day and the Week. Your timing is SO mixed up!

Lamad

Dispensationalism from those like C.R. Stam is a FALSEHOOD, plain and simple. Why? Because God's Word preaches only ONE Gospel of Jesus Christ, and It is for ALL peoples.

I can see right now you're probably on the false Dispensationalist doctrine that there's TWO Gospels also, one for Israel and another only for Gentiles.

Eph 2:19-22
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
(KJV)

That's Apostle Paul speaking to Gentile believers at the Church of Ephesus (along with remnants of the scattered tribes of Israel).

In Romans 9, Apostle Paul even quotes from the Book of Hosea to Gentile Roman believers, and the Book of Hosea was specifically written to the ten tribes of the house of Israel.

What you're listening to are a bunch of false prophets that broke off from God's Truth in His Word and created their 'own' set of doctrines, stealing money from God's people in the process. Darby's Dispensationalism did just that in drumming up false support for the Pre-Trib secret Rapture doctrine.

When Jesus taught us about the "great tribulation" events per His Olivet Discourse, He didn't intend for us to play Russian roulette with those events He taught, and try to FORCE them to fit a doctrine of men like the fly away Pre-Trib Rapture.

You have this backwards: pretribbers don't see the rapture AT ALL in Matt. 24. That is a posttrib false theory. Paul's rapture comes 7 years before that gathering in Matt. 24. Pretribbers don't believe Jesus was speaking to the church here; but to the JEWS. This is the period of "Daniel's 70th week" and is not about the church. Did you not read: "24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city..." Do you REALLY see the church in this verse? It is "upon THY people," speaking of Israel. It is speaking of Jerusalem. Pretribbers don't see the church in this verse.

Not backwards. The 7 signs Christ gave in His Olivet Discourse directly parallel the Seals in Revelation 6. They parallel all the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials actually.

Christ's coming to gather His Church is... AFTER the tribulation, just like He said, as also Apostle Paul taught, like in 2 Thess.2. In 2 Thess.2, Paul showed 2 main events must occur PRIOR to Christ's coming and gathering of His Church. Those 2 events are tribulation timing events.

And it's not Pre-tribbers that only believe Jesus was speaking to Jews in Matt.24 and Mark 13, it's Darby's Dispensationalism they listen to that steers them away from understanding Christ's Olivet Discourse and the signs of the end He gave there.

Daniel's 70th week applies to events to occur in Jerusalem that will affect the WHOLE EARTH, not just the Jews, and not just the area of Jerusalem. The Pre-Trib spin doctors can try to isolate the Gentile believers on Christ all they want from Israelite believers but it will NEVER work. Why? Simply because God scattered the majority of Israel AMONG the Gentiles (that's a whole another part of God's Word missing in your Bible vocabulary). Apostle Paul showed many times in his Epistles how Christ's Body is made up of believers of both Israel and Gentiles, together, as one Body.

It's inane 'ignorance' to think that ONLY Gentiles are going to be gathered by Christ when He comes anyway! God's Word nowhere teaches that kind of idea. You've been listening to the 'hireling' that preaches for barley and wheat (John 10).

 

[iamlamad]

Dispensationalism from those like C.R. Stam is a FALSEHOOD, plain and simple. Why? Because God's Word preaches only ONE Gospel of Jesus Christ, and It is for ALL peoples.

I can see right now you're probably on the false Dispensationalist doctrine that there's TWO Gospels also, one for Israel and another only for Gentiles.

Eph 2:19-22
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
(KJV)

That's Apostle Paul speaking to Gentile believers at the Church of Ephesus (along with remnants of the scattered tribes of Israel).

In Romans 9, Apostle Paul even quotes from the Book of Hosea to Gentile Roman believers, and the Book of Hosea was specifically written to the ten tribes of the house of Israel.

What you're listening to are a bunch of false prophets that broke off from God's Truth in His Word and created their 'own' set of doctrines, stealing money from God's people in the process. Darby's Dispensationalism did just that in drumming up false support for the Pre-Trib secret Rapture doctrine.


Not backwards. The 7 signs Christ gave in His Olivet Discourse directly parallel the Seals in Revelation 6. They parallel all the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials actually.

Christ's coming to gather His Church is... AFTER the tribulation, just like He said, as also Apostle Paul taught, like in 2 Thess.2. In 2 Thess.2, Paul showed 2 main events must occur PRIOR to Christ's coming and gathering of His Church. Those 2 events are tribulation timing events.

And it's not Pre-tribbers that only believe Jesus was speaking to Jews in Matt.24 and Mark 13, it's Darby's Dispensationalism they listen to that steers them away from understanding Christ's Olivet Discourse and the signs of the end He gave there.

Daniel's 70th week applies to events to occur in Jerusalem that will affect the WHOLE EARTH, not just the Jews, and not just the area of Jerusalem. The Pre-Trib spin doctors can try to isolate the Gentile believers on Christ all they want from Israelite believers but it will NEVER work. Why? Simply because God scattered the majority of Israel AMONG the Gentiles (that's a whole another part of God's Word missing in your Bible vocabulary). Apostle Paul showed many times in his Epistles how Christ's Body is made up of believers of both Israel and Gentiles, together, as one Body.

It's inane 'ignorance' to think that ONLY Gentiles are going to be gathered by Christ when He comes anyway! God's Word nowhere teaches that kind of idea. You've been listening to the 'hireling' that preaches for barley and wheat (John 10).

So you think that from the days of Adam to today, God has always dealt with man the SAME WAY? If so, you need to start over with your ABC's. Did you never read Paul, where for many years there was NO LAW for any human to break, yet from ADam to Moses, all died, because of sin. That was a DISPENSATION, where God had NO LAW for men to break.

Then from Moses to John the Baptist, there was LAW. That was a DISPENSATION - a certain period of time where God delt with man according to the Laws of Moses.

Then were was the time Jesus was alive on earth. That was the DISPENSATION of IMMANUEL, or God WITH us. It was short.

Then the chuch age began. Did you never read?

1 Corinthians 9:17
For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

Ephesians 1:10
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Ephesians 3:2
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Colossians 1:25
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;




I guess you are going to have to find a bible that does not use this word! I have not read C.R. Stam, but knowing the things you normally write, he is probably RIGHT ON! OF COURSE there are dispensations of time, where God deals with man differently. There will be another one coming, the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth will be a DIFFERENT dispensation. Many won't agree with this, but the 7 years of the 70th week will be a dispensation. That can easily be seen by the messages given by the angels in Rev. 14. There is NOTHING there about the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord, which is the basis of Paul's gospel.

Right now, there is ONE gospel for both Israel and the Gentiles. it is Paul's gospel. But after the pretrib rapture, Paul's gospel will END, and the door will be shut. No more will enter this door after the pretrib rapture. Again I see, your false doctrine on the time of the rapture clouds every other doctrine, so you err in almost every post you make. You really, seriously, need to start over with a clean slate: receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit, and then allow Him to teach you. All you have are the reasonings of men, and most of that is nonsense.

OF COURSE for years Paul went into synogogues and tried to make believers out of Jews. But did you ever notice, he GAVE UP on the Jews!

Acts 13:46
Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Acts 18:6
And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean; from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.

Galatians 2:8
(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles



AGain you seem to ignore TIME. Do you have a problem understanding the passing of time? Things change!

Yes, backwards, and with preconceive glasses you cannot even tell you are seeing this backwards. There is NO proof that the gathering in Matthew is Paul's rapture, and MUCH proof that it is not. Yet you cling to this false doctrine as if it were truth. There ARE some parallels between Jesus' discourse and Revelation. But since you do not understand John Chronology in Revelation, you don't understand Jesus' chronology. You IGNORE Jesus words, "the end is not yet." And you ignore What John saw in Chapter 7, the church, already around the throne in heaven, before the 70th week has even begun! You wish to teach Revelation, yet you still don't even know where the 70th week is in Revelation, not the start, not the midpoint, and not the end. How can you teach truth when you don't even know these basics?

YOu still don't know what Paul meant in 2 Thes. 2 either. Did you never notice the word "first" is associated with only ONE event?
Yet you frequently say two, MISSING the intent of the author. Can you not read well?

Geneva Bible:
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,

What comes FIRST? It is a departing that comes first. When the departing comes FIRST, the rapture of the bride, the one who is restraining is taken out of the way, and THEN the man of sin is revealed. Then anyone can know they are IN the Day of the Lord. If you know anything about Revelation, you would KNOw the departing comes at least 3 1/2 years before the man of sin is revealed. So in Paul's argument, there is only ONE THING that comes first; the departure of the church. Once that has taken place, the restrainer taken out of the way, THEN the man of sin is revealed. it is plain and simple.

OF COURSE the 70th week will affect the entire world. But what is the PURPOSE of the 70th week? It's purpose is FIRST for the Jews and Jerusalem. In other words, for ISRAEL. There IS NO purpose in the 70th week for the church; that is why God takes the church out FIRST. Of course, if you cannot understand Paul, and what he meant by "first" you will never see this truth.

OF COURSE any Jew or Gentile that becomes a believer in Christ loses their identity, as Paul wrote, the wall of separation is torn down. WE are all ONE in Christ. But many Jews and many Gentiles are OUTSIDE Christ and so are not made one. There is STILL Jew and Gentile and it will continue.

Again, your false doctrine of the TIMING of the rapture, clouds your understanding of many other things; WHO will be caught up on Paul's rapture - you know, the rapture that comes in the time of peace and safety - the rapture that comes as the trigger for the signs as seen in Rev. 6? PAUL TELLS US who: it is ONLY those in Christ. And in other scriptures we know that only those not lukewarm will be caught up, and only those with no unforgiveness in their heart. Did you forget how narrow the way is that will lead to salvation? OF COURSE there will be some born again from Israel that will be caught up, because they are IN CHRIST.

Your clouded thinking, your false doctrines leads you to believe I listen to the wrong teachers. In truth, the Holy Spirit is my teacher. You would be wise to begin believing what I believe, for it is TRUTH. I am trying to save you from much embarrassment later. Are you PRAYING that you might be found worthy to escape all these things? That is in black and white, and you should take it to heart and begin praying!

Lamad

 

[Eric E Stahl]

Isaiah 24:21-23
21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high(See Revelation12:7-14), and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

22And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days(((3.5 years))) shall they be visited.

23Then the moon shall be confounded(((Stopped))), and the sun ashamed(((eclipsed))), when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

At the 7th trumpet and third woe the Devil and his host of high ones are cast to the earth and imprisioned for the 3.5 years of the great tribulation!

The Lord will not come to stay on the earth till Armageddon.

 

[veteran]

So you think that from the days of Adam to today, God has always dealt with man the SAME WAY? If so, you need to start over with your ABC's. Did you never read Paul, where for many years there was NO LAW for any human to break, yet from ADam to Moses, all died, because of sin. That was a DISPENSATION, where God had NO LAW for men to break.

Then from Moses to John the Baptist, there was LAW. That was a DISPENSATION - a certain period of time where God delt with man according to the Laws of Moses.

Then were was the time Jesus was alive on earth. That was the DISPENSATION of IMMANUEL, or God WITH us. It was short.

That line of reasoning won't work. Why?

Simply because Dispensationalism attempts to cover the various administrations of God's Plan of Salvation through the Bible timeline, but then it does a NASTY LITTLE TURN when it comes to the events for the end of this world and Christ's second coming.

The nasty little turn is its usage to support the Pre-Trib secret 'fly away' Rapture doctrine of MEN. One of the ways it does that is by going back... and making an ILLEGAL SEPARATION between the seed of Israel and the Gentiles, regardless of whether both are believers on Christ Jesus or not!

Apostle Paul DID NOT preach a different Gospel to the Gentiles. He preached the SAME GOSPEL the other Apostles did, and that our Lord Jesus Christ did.


Here... is all Apostle Paul was given by Christ Jesus to preach the same Gospel to:
Acts 9:15
15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto Me, to bear My name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
(KJV)

That's THREE groups Paul was given to preach The Gospel to: 1. Gentiles, 2. kings, and 3. the children of Israel.


Does the following verse show this? Yes...
Gal 3:27-29
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
(KJV)


So, how is it that little ole' Pre-Trib secret fly away Rapture doctrine of MEN doesn't allow believers of the seed of Israel to be know as Israel anymore? It cannot, since it teaches the LIE that Christ comes prior to the tribulation to gather His Church while Israel is LEFT BEHIND! And that's the kind of false ideas those like C.R. Stam are on, essentially splitting BELIEVERS on Christ Jesus. Who is it that is known for his working to try and divide Christ's Body in order to try and conquer? The Devil himself, and that's where such doctrines originate.

 

[iamlamad]

That line of reasoning won't work. Why?

Simply because Dispensationalism attempts to cover the various administrations of God's Plan of Salvation through the Bible timeline, but then it does a NASTY LITTLE TURN when it comes to the events for the end of this world and Christ's second coming.

The nasty little turn is its usage to support the Pre-Trib secret 'fly away' Rapture doctrine of MEN. One of the ways it does that is by going back... and making an ILLEGAL SEPARATION between the seed of Israel and the Gentiles, regardless of whether both are believers on Christ Jesus or not!

Apostle Paul DID NOT preach a different Gospel to the Gentiles. He preached the SAME GOSPEL the other Apostles did, and that our Lord Jesus Christ did.


Here... is all Apostle Paul was given by Christ Jesus to preach the same Gospel to:
Acts 9:15
15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto Me, to bear My name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
(KJV)

That's THREE groups Paul was given to preach The Gospel to: 1. Gentiles, 2. kings, and 3. the children of Israel.


Does the following verse show this? Yes...
Gal 3:27-29
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
(KJV)


So, how is it that little ole' Pre-Trib secret fly away Rapture doctrine of MEN doesn't allow believers of the seed of Israel to be know as Israel anymore? It cannot, since it teaches the LIE that Christ comes prior to the tribulation to gather His Church while Israel is LEFT BEHIND! And that's the kind of false ideas those like C.R. Stam are on, essentially splitting BELIEVERS on Christ Jesus. Who is it that is known for his working to try and divide Christ's Body in order to try and conquer? The Devil himself, and that's where such doctrines originate.

Your false doctrines are still just as false as they were when we begain. REad this again:

as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

There are Jews, there is the Church and there are the Nations - THREE groups we need to keep straight in our end time doctrines. It is only AFTER once is "in Christ" that this distinction ceases. I know MANY pretribbers, and I have NEVER heard any of them deny the existence of Israel. That is NOT a part of pretrib doctrine. The ONLY difference Pretrib has with others is we know the truth: Jesus is coming FIRST for His church. Veteran, have you so quickly forgotten?

"Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first,"

Dispensations DO WORK for they are the truth, as you can easily read in the scriptures I posted. Will you IGNORE them as you do most other scriptures that teach truth you deny?

Next, will it be GOD's fault that most of Israel will be left behind with you and the other posttribbers? NO, of course it will not be God's fault: unless people are IN CHRIST, there is no question they will be left behind, unless under the age of accountability. Neither will it be God's fault that YOU are left behind. You have not obeyed Luke 21:36.

Lamad

Isaiah 24:21-23
21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high(See Revelation12:7-14), and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

22And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days(((3.5 years))) shall they be visited.

23Then the moon shall be confounded(((Stopped))), and the sun ashamed(((eclipsed))), when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

At the 7th trumpet and third woe the Devil and his host of high ones are cast to the earth and imprisioned for the 3.5 years of the great tribulation!

The Lord will not come to stay on the earth till Armageddon.

Eric, I don't think this is what Rev. 12 & 13 teach. The devil will be free to roam the earth. I believe He will immediately possess the man of sin.

Lamad

 

[veteran]

Your false doctrines are still just as false as they were when we begain. REad this again:

as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

There are Jews, there is the Church and there are the Nations - THREE groups we need to keep straight in our end time doctrines. It is only AFTER once is "in Christ" that this distinction ceases. I know MANY pretribbers, and I have NEVER heard any of them deny the existence of Israel. That is NOT a part of pretrib doctrine. The ONLY difference Pretrib has with others is we know the truth: Jesus is coming FIRST for His church. Veteran, have you so quickly forgotten?

The LIE that believing Israelites in Christ are no more 'Israel' IS... a part of the Pre-trib secret Rapture belief system of men.

It's a specific idea from John Darby's Dispensationalism, you know, the man in 1800's Great Britain that anchored the Pre-Trib doctrines having gotten it from the Edward Irving church and then later pushed in the Americas.

You're just like a lot of other Biblically illiterates that hasn't studied enough of God's Word to know what you're talking about. No wonder you cannot protect yourself away from men's doctrines when they push them on you.

Darby's Dispensationalist LIE that God's Israel is separate from Christ's Church is a stupid idea from men, and it's only purpose was to help make the false Pre-trib secret Rapture theory more believable to deceived brethren. The false idea that a seed born Israelite in Christ stops being Israel is an idea from those men and not God's Word. The only difference is that one of the seed of Israel that remains in 'unbelief' are cut off while God's Israel continues into His Eternity.

The word ISRAEL is another name for Christ's Salvation. It means 'to prevail with God' or 'prevail with God's help'. Those men who divine out of their own hearts and God did not send them go directly against what The LORD has said about Israel...

Jer 31:35-37
35 Thus saith the LORD, Which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is His name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before Me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Me for ever.
37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
(KJV)


The translation for the Biblically unlearned who have a problem with English? IF... the ordinances of the sun, moon, and stars depart from God, then Israel will cease being a nation before Him forever! That means it is IMPOSSIBLE for Israel to be destroyed, ever. And that means the seed of Israel also.

That is why Apostle Paul spent so much... time... in his Epistles revealing to us Gentile believers that through our belief on Christ Jesus WE... have become ISRAELITES with Abraham as our spiritual father! (Gal.3; Romans 9; Ephesians 2, etc.). That's how there is no difference between believing Jew (Israelite) and Gentile, we together ARE God's Israel. Those who remain in disbelief are simply cut off from Christ's Salvation to Israel, regardless if they are Jew or Gentile unbelievers.

So that... changes the picture then as to who Christ is coming to save at the end of this world. The same time Christ comes to gather His Church, i.e., God's Israel, that's the very same time when ALL EYES will see Him!

 

[Eric E Stahl]

Your false doctrines are still just as false as they were when we begain. REad this again:

as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

There are Jews, there is the Church and there are the Nations - THREE groups we need to keep straight in our end time doctrines. It is only AFTER once is "in Christ" that this distinction ceases. I know MANY pretribbers, and I have NEVER heard any of them deny the existence of Israel. That is NOT a part of pretrib doctrine. The ONLY difference Pretrib has with others is we know the truth: Jesus is coming FIRST for His church. Veteran, have you so quickly forgotten?

"Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first,"

Dispensations DO WORK for they are the truth, as you can easily read in the scriptures I posted. Will you IGNORE them as you do most other scriptures that teach truth you deny?

Next, will it be GOD's fault that most of Israel will be left behind with you and the other posttribbers? NO, of course it will not be God's fault: unless people are IN CHRIST, there is no question they will be left behind, unless under the age of accountability. Neither will it be God's fault that YOU are left behind. You have not obeyed Luke 21:36.

Lamad

Eric, I don't think this is what Rev. 12 & 13 teach. The devil will be free to roam the earth. I believe He will immediately possess the man of sin.

Lamad

Lamad,

Yes, the devil will be free to roam the earth to bring woe on mankind, but he will no longer have access to heaven. Consider the following.

The Fleeing of Israel

Jesus will come to earth in the middle of the tribulation to make a way of escape for the army of Israel to flee from the devil and his forces when he is cast to the earth.


Zechariah 14:1-5
1Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

[SIZE=14pt](When the army of Israel flees, it will be to the river ford on the Arnon River 1/3 of the way south on the other side of the dead sea.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Isaiah 16:1-5[/SIZE]
1 Send ye the lamb(Jesus) to the ruler of the land from Sela to the wilderness, unto the mount of the daughter of Zion.
2 For it shall be, that, as a wandering bird cast out of the nest, so the daughters of Moab shall be at the fords of Arnon.

3 Take counsel, execute judgment; make thy shadow as the night in the midst of the noonday[SIZE=14pt](Solar Eclipse)[/SIZE]; hide the outcasts; bewray not him that wandereth.

4 Let mine outcasts dwell with thee, Moab; be thou a covert to them from the face of the spoiler: for the extortioner is at an end, the spoiler ceaseth, the oppressors are consumed out of the land.
5 And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he(Jesus) shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness.

Revelation 12:6-14
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time(3.5 Years), from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

When Jesus splits the Mount of Olives and Israel flees from Jerusalem down the valley to the east, the devil and the antichrist will send a flood of armies after them. The Mount of Olives will help Israel by swallowing the armies as the Red Sea swallowed the Egyptians.

[SIZE=14pt]Mathew 24:15-22[/SIZE]
15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Israel's fleeing is in the middle of the tribulation and that is when the Lord comes to earth to help Israel.

 

[iamlamad]

Lamad,

Yes, the devil will be free to roam the earth to bring woe on mankind, but he will no longer have access to heaven. Consider the following.

The Fleeing of Israel

Jesus will come to earth in the middle of the tribulation to make a way of escape for the army of Israel to flee from the devil and his forces when he is cast to the earth.


Zechariah 14:1-5
1Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

[SIZE=14pt](When the army of Israel flees, it will be to the river ford on the Arnon River 1/3 of the way south on the other side of the dead sea.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Isaiah 16:1-5[/SIZE]
1 Send ye the lamb(Jesus) to the ruler of the land from Sela to the wilderness, unto the mount of the daughter of Zion.
2 For it shall be, that, as a wandering bird cast out of the nest, so the daughters of Moab shall be at the fords of Arnon.

3 Take counsel, execute judgment; make thy shadow as the night in the midst of the noonday[SIZE=14pt](Solar Eclipse)[/SIZE]; hide the outcasts; bewray not him that wandereth.

4 Let mine outcasts dwell with thee, Moab; be thou a covert to them from the face of the spoiler: for the extortioner is at an end, the spoiler ceaseth, the oppressors are consumed out of the land.
5 And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he(Jesus) shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness.

Revelation 12:6-14
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time(3.5 Years), from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

When Jesus splits the Mount of Olives and Israel flees from Jerusalem down the valley to the east, the devil and the antichrist will send a flood of armies after them. The Mount of Olives will help Israel by swallowing the armies as the Red Sea swallowed the Egyptians.

[SIZE=14pt]Mathew 24:15-22[/SIZE]
15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Israel's fleeing is in the middle of the tribulation and that is when the Lord comes to earth to help Israel.

Eric! Not you too! You cannot possibly find a scrpture for HIs coming midtrib, for He does not come then! You will have Him missing His own wedding! Please go to chapter 19, and forever know, He comes at the END of the week, and not before, except to the air for the rapture before the week.

That scripture in Zech is at the END of the week, not the middle. He spits the mountain after the week too, for that is when He comes back. If you can find a CLEAR scripture showing Him coming midtrib, I will change my mind.

Lamad

The LIE that believing Israelites in Christ are no more 'Israel' IS... a part of the Pre-trib secret Rapture belief system of men.

It's a specific idea from John Darby's Dispensationalism, you know, the man in 1800's Great Britain that anchored the Pre-Trib doctrines having gotten it from the Edward Irving church and then later pushed in the Americas.

You're just like a lot of other Biblically illiterates that hasn't studied enough of God's Word to know what you're talking about. No wonder you cannot protect yourself away from men's doctrines when they push them on you.

Darby's Dispensationalist LIE that God's Israel is separate from Christ's Church is a stupid idea from men, and it's only purpose was to help make the false Pre-trib secret Rapture theory more believable to deceived brethren. The false idea that a seed born Israelite in Christ stops being Israel is an idea from those men and not God's Word. The only difference is that one of the seed of Israel that remains in 'unbelief' are cut off while God's Israel continues into His Eternity.

The word ISRAEL is another name for Christ's Salvation. It means 'to prevail with God' or 'prevail with God's help'. Those men who divine out of their own hearts and God did not send them go directly against what The LORD has said about Israel...

Jer 31:35-37
35 Thus saith the LORD, Which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is His name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before Me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Me for ever.
37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
(KJV)


The translation for the Biblically unlearned who have a problem with English? IF... the ordinances of the sun, moon, and stars depart from God, then Israel will cease being a nation before Him forever! That means it is IMPOSSIBLE for Israel to be destroyed, ever. And that means the seed of Israel also.

That is why Apostle Paul spent so much... time... in his Epistles revealing to us Gentile believers that through our belief on Christ Jesus WE... have become ISRAELITES with Abraham as our spiritual father! (Gal.3; Romans 9; Ephesians 2, etc.). That's how there is no difference between believing Jew (Israelite) and Gentile, we together ARE God's Israel. Those who remain in disbelief are simply cut off from Christ's Salvation to Israel, regardless if they are Jew or Gentile unbelievers.

So that... changes the picture then as to who Christ is coming to save at the end of this world. The same time Christ comes to gather His Church, i.e., God's Israel, that's the very same time when ALL EYES will see Him!

Veteran, you are thinking physical, Paul was writing spiritual. Can you read and understand this?

Col. 3:11 [In this new creation all distinctions vanish.] There is no room for and there can be neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, [nor difference between nations whether alien] barbarians or Scythians [who are the most savage of all], nor slave or free man; but Christ is all and in all [everything and everywhere, to all men, without distinction of person]. [Amp.]

Gal. 3
26 For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through faith.
27 For as many [of you] as were baptized into Christ [into a spiritual union and communion with Christ, the Anointed One, the Messiah] have put on (clothed yourselves with) Christ.
28 There is [now no distinction] neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is not male [b]and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. [Amp.]


Did you get that? NO DISTINCTION! No longer Greek, no longer Gentile, No longer Jew. AFter regeneration all that is gone, and we are sons of God and members of the one body of Christ.

Now, how does the truth of scripture compare with what you wrote?

"The LIE that believing Israelites in Christ are no more 'Israel' "

You are speaking in the flesh. Paul was speaking in the Spirit. OF COURSE a born again Jew can live in Israel and be called a part of "israel." But when the pretrib rapture comes, they will go with Jesus, and the rest of Israel, those that do NOT believe in Jesus as their Messiah, will remain behind with all the posttribbers and lukewarmers. So "Israel" will still be on earth, and Sons of God (from Israel) will be in heaven. You must read a lot of Darby! I personally have never read anything about him. It is only MYTH that he created pretrib doctrine. It is myth because pretrib doctrine is written in the bible very clearly for anyone to read. However, you will not find it in Matthew 24. Veteran, I have never said Israel will be destroyed. God has said 1/3 will come through the fire. I believe that. I also believe that Jesus will come FIRST, Just as Paul has written, and take the bride to heaven. Are you praying the Luke 21:36 prayer yet? You should be!

Lamad

 

[veteran]

Veteran, you are thinking physical, Paul was writing spiritual. Can you read and understand this?

I'm thinking BOTH spiritual AND... literal. It's the literal Israel part that you cannot understand, simply because of the false prophets that have influenced you which secretly hate God's concept of Israel.

If LITERAL Israel ceases, then Christ's Salvation ceases. That is essentially what God was saying in the Jeremiah 31 Scripture. And that especially means the 'seed' of Israel.

When I say 'literal' Israel am I speaking of seed born Israelites that REFUSE Christ's Salvation?? No, of course not. Those of them who refuse Christ are no better off than the unbelieving Gentile.

But WHO did Apostle Paul reveal in his Epistles that Christ's Salvation would come to first, the LITERAL 'seed' of Israel that would BELIEVE. He showed those in the Romans 11:1-5 verses, the remnant of Israel according to the election of grace. And the history of The Gospel witness per Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and via Paul's Epistles FIRST included believers of the 'seed' of Israel, and then went forward through them to us Gentiles. So like Paul said, "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." (Rom.11:29). It means God will not... go back on His promises to the seed, EVEN IF others of them still remain in unbelief and are cutoff. And actually, Christ's Salvation, The Gospel, was first given to the seed of the Woman all the way back in Old Testament times. The whole Bible is especially about the Seed of the Woman and then everyone else in relation to God's Israel.

Those you listen to have also missed another important matter about Christ's Salvation of the future. The 'nations' will STILL exist in Christ's coming Kingdom on earth. Israel as a nation is going to continue to exist also.

 

[Eric E Stahl]

I'm thinking BOTH spiritual AND... literal. It's the literal Israel part that you cannot understand, simply because of the false prophets that have influenced you which secretly hate God's concept of Israel.

If LITERAL Israel ceases, then Christ's Salvation ceases. That is essentially what God was saying in the Jeremiah 31 Scripture. And that especially means the 'seed' of Israel.

When I say 'literal' Israel am I speaking of seed born Israelites that REFUSE Christ's Salvation?? No, of course not. Those of them who refuse Christ are no better off than the unbelieving Gentile.

But WHO did Apostle Paul reveal in his Epistles that Christ's Salvation would come to first, the LITERAL 'seed' of Israel that would BELIEVE. He showed those in the Romans 11:1-5 verses, the remnant of Israel according to the election of grace. And the history of The Gospel witness per Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and via Paul's Epistles FIRST included believers of the 'seed' of Israel, and then went forward through them to us Gentiles. So like Paul said, "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." (Rom.11:29). It means God will not... go back on His promises to the seed, EVEN IF others of them still remain in unbelief and are cutoff. And actually, Christ's Salvation, The Gospel, was first given to the seed of the Woman all the way back in Old Testament times. The whole Bible is especially about the Seed of the Woman and then everyone else in relation to God's Israel.

Those you listen to have also missed another important matter about Christ's Salvation of the future. The 'nations' will STILL exist in Christ's coming Kingdom on earth. Israel as a nation is going to continue to exist also.

The devil and his host of rebelling angels will be cast out of heaven to the earth at the middle of the tribulation while there is still a time times and half a time left Revelation 12:7-14.

At that time the Lord will also will come to earth to make a way for the army of Israel to escape from the antichrist and the armies of the world which are surrounding the Jews who reject the antichrist after he goes into the temple and says he is god. Jesus will return to heaven to reward the two witnesses , 144,000 and the dead tribulation saints that have been redeemed from the earth Revelation 14:1-4 and 15:1-5.

Therefore the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of the Lord and his Christ Revelation11:15.

Ownership passed to the Lord and Jesus by war but they will not take possession of earth till Armageddon. Now read my last post # 27 and it will make more sense.

 

[iamlamad]

...

When I say 'literal' Israel am I speaking of seed born Israelites that REFUSE Christ's Salvation?? No, of course not. Those of them who refuse Christ are no better off than the unbelieving Gentile.
...

Aha! You finally give us your definition of Literal Israel.

Do you know that the primarily Jewish church DIED OUT the first generation? Those churches simply disappeared, shortly after God turned to the Gentiles. For much of the last 2000 years the church has been mostly made up of Gentiles. However, as Paul wrote, once one is born again, that distinction disappears in the realm of the spirit. But being born again does NOT give a Gentile Jewish blood! They are still very much gentiles in the flesh, but in the spirit grafted in to the true vine, which is Jesus.

The LIE that believing Israelites in Christ are no more 'Israel' IS... a part of the Pre-trib secret Rapture belief system of men.

WE are only quoting Paul. If you disagree, then you are disagreeing with Paul. I believe Paul was speaking of the spiritual man inside, not the flesh. Apparently you were speaking of the flesh, not the spirit. If a Jew is born again, His or her mother is still Jewish, and they are STILL ISRAEL in the flesh. Their physical DNA did not change with salvation.

Galatians 3: 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Veteran, do you believe this verse, or not? If you say yes, then tell us what this verse means to you. I take it to mean in the spirit.

Lamad

 

[veteran]

Aha! You finally give us your definition of Literal Israel.

You're as mad as a hatter.

LITERAL Israel today is CHRIST'S CHURCH, HIS believers, ONE body, made up of BOTH believing ISRAELITES OF THE SEED and... GENTILES, both who believe on Christ Jesus. That's the gist of my previous post.

But YOU have instead MADE UP A GRAND LIE, trying to infer LITERAL Israel ONLY means 'unbelievers' of the seed!