What is the third woe?

[Eric E Stahl]

Revelation 8:12-13
12 u Then the fourth angel sounded: And a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them were darkened. A third of the day 2 did not shine, and likewise the night.
13And I looked, v and I heard an 3 angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, w"Woe, woe, woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the remaining blasts of the trumpet of the three angels who are about to sound!"

 

[Trumpeter]

Revelation 8:12-13
12 u Then the fourth angel sounded: And a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them were darkened. A third of the day 2 did not shine, and likewise the night.
13And I looked, v and I heard an 3 angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, w"Woe, woe, woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the remaining blasts of the trumpet of the three angels who are about to sound!"

Greetings Eric,

This fourth judgment has to do with first luminaries the sun, moon, and stars. We note with interest that, on the fourth day of creation, God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven (Genesis 1:14). Now, at the blast of the fourth trumpet, one third of the light produced by these bodies is extinguished. This, too, happened in Moses' day: And the LORD said to Moses, "Stretch out your hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, darkness [which] may even be felt." So Moses stretched out his hand toward heaven, and there was thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days. They did not see one another; nor did anyone rise from his place for three days. (Exodus 10:21-23) it happened once; it will happen again!

The worst, however, is yet to come. An angel flying through the midst of Heaven cries, Woe, woe, woe! This correlates with Daniel, Chapter 9, where the 70th week is described. The first 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation are not nearly as severe as a final 3 1/2 years. In Matthew 24:8, our Lord describes the first half of this time period as the beginning of sorrows. However, he referred to the final 3 1/2 years as the great Tribulation (Matthew 24:21). As the Tribulation hour approaches it's climax, the judgments become more severe and the loss of life greater. This is especially noticed as one observes that 2 verses cover the scope of each of the first four trumpets. However, trumpet five requires twelve verses and trumpet six necessitates nine verses.

God bless.

 

[Eric E Stahl]

The Third Woe

[SIZE=14pt]Revelation 11:12-14[/SIZE]
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

Revelation 11:15
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

What happened after the two witnesses finished their 1260 day witness to cause the kingdoms of this world to become the kingdoms of the Lord and his Christ?

[SIZE=14pt]Revelation 12:7-17[/SIZE]
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. [SIZE=16pt]Woe[/SIZE] to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

When the devil is defeated by war in heaven at the middle of the tribulation, he is cast to the earth where he will persecute Israel for the last 3.5 years of the tribulation. The devil is the third woe on the earth!

 

[iamlamad]

The Third Woe

[SIZE=14pt]Revelation 11:12-14[/SIZE]
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

Revelation 11:15
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

What happened after the two witnesses finished their 1260 day witness to cause the kingdoms of this world to become the kingdoms of the Lord and his Christ?

[SIZE=14pt]Revelation 12:7-17[/SIZE]
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. [SIZE=16pt]Woe[/SIZE] to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

When the devil is defeated by war in heaven at the middle of the tribulation, he is cast to the earth where he will persecute Israel for the last 3.5 years of the tribulation. The devil is the third woe on the earth!

I agree with you, that may well be the third woe, since it is written, and not identified as the third. However, you have a problem in your chrolology.

What happened after the two witnesses finished their 1260 day witness to cause the kingdoms of this world to become the kingdoms of the Lord and his Christ?

Please note, Daniel gave the last 3 1/2 year time twice as time, times and the dividing of time. Then John gave this same period of time FIVE MORE times in days, in months and again as Daniel did. These times are all events that will begin near the midpoint and go to the end of the week.

Rev. 11
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Question, do we consider then that the timing of verse 3 is 42 months after verse 3? Do we consider that there are 42 months BETWEEN these verses? I have never yet heard anyone say that. I don't believe that is the author's intent.

Do we consider verse 4 is 1260 days after verse 3, or that there are 1260 days between these two verses?

Rev 12
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Do we consider that there are 1260 days between these verses - that the war begins 1260 days after the woman flees?

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

Do we consider that there are 3.5 years between these verses?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

Do we consider that there are 42 months between these verse and he will not open his mouth until 42 months have passed?

I could do the same with Daniel's two mentions of the 3.5 years, but it is already ridiculous. OF COURSE we do not consider that this times runs out in any of these verses. We should understand that the time BEGINS at the mention of these times. So all these verses are very near the exact midpoint of the week, since all are about events that start at the midpoint and go to the end.

So then, since in 4 of these five you DON'T consider the next verse as 3.5 years later, WHY do you consider 11:14 as 1260 days after 11:3? Why? Just because John chose to give us more information in this one case?

My point is, verses 11:4 through 11:13 should be considered as a PARENTHESIS, or side trail.

Notice what happens:

Verse 2, the man of sin shows up in Jerusalem with his Gentile armies. He has to arrive there to walk into the temple. WHEN does he arrive? It must be close to the abomination, else God could not have written 42 months. My guess is, about 3 1/2 days before the abomination.

Verse 3, the two witnesses show up? They show up almost INSTANTLY after the man of sin arrives! They come because HE comes! They show up exactly 3 1/2 days before the abomination, The two witnesses time is accurate to the day. They will testify for 1260 days, which will get them close to the 7th vial that ends the week. They lay dead for 3 1/2 days and then are resurrected with the other Old Testament saints on the last day, at the 7th vial that ends the week.

So 3 1/2 days later the man of sin does his abomination. (The 7th trumpet marks this event on earth.)

12:6 the woman flees into the wilderness...WHY? Because she has just seen the abomination and she (those living in Judea) are doing exactly what Jesus told them to do.
12:14, the woman is protected for 3.5 years.

So what happens if we ADD the 1260 days before the 7th trumpet (that marks the exact midpoint)? We push the abomination event to the END of the week. We have the woman fleeing at the END of the week.
And now the week is 1260 plus 1260 plus 42 months!

NO NO NO! The intent of the author is that 11:4 through 11:13 are considered as a parenthesis with NO BEARING on chronology, so this one timeframe out of the five matches the other 4. All five begin close to the abomination and ends close to the 7th vial that ends the week.

So with verses 4-13 as a side journey, this is what will happen:

Verse 2, the man of sin shows up in Jerusalem with his Gentile armies. He has to arrive there to walk into the temple. WHEN does he arrive? It must be close to the abomination, else God could not have written 42 months. I will guess 3 1/2 days plus or minus a few minutes, before the abomination.

Verse 3, the two witnesses show up. They show up almost INSTANTLY after the man of sin arrives! They come because HE comes! They show up exactly 3 1/2 days before the abomination,

So 3 1/2 days later the man of sin does his abomination. .....The 7th trumpet sounds marking this event on earth.

12:6 the woman flees into the wilderness...WHY? Because she has just seen the abomination and she (those living in Judea) are doing exactly what Jesus told them to do: FLEE.

12:7 Michael goes after Satan to cast him down. Adam's lease has expired (at the 7th trumpet) and the Kingdoms have been transferred to Jesus! Hallelujah! Suddenly the lease Satan as usurped for 6000 years has ENDED! Michael wastes NO TIME in kicking him DOWN. Michael has been waiting for this trumpet blast for a long long time! Time? One second after the abomination and 7th trumpet. (It might take Michael one second to find him!)

12:14, the woman is protected for 3.5 years. Perhaps not a day after the abomination. Perhaps only a few hours.

13:5 the beast is given his 42 months.

Since all of these times END very near the 7th vial, there is simply NO TIME to add any time between any of these events.

I know many think the two witnesses testify in the first half. I can assure you, that is NOT the intent of the author. They come because the man of sin comes. They come IMMEDIATELY after He comes. they show up IN THE NEXT VERSE. That is not by accident. They could show up just a few seconds after the man of sin comes. John does not give us that specific timing.

Lamad

 

[veteran]

The 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe timing begins at Rev.9:12 and extends all the way through to Rev.11:14. That is tribulation timing.

Within the same hour of the 'ending' of the 2nd Woe, the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe comes.

Rev.11:15 does not specifically show Christ's coming there, yet it is understood by those events described from Rev.11:15-19.

 

[afaithfulone4u]

I agree with you, that may well be the third woe, since it is written, and not identified as the third. However, you have a problem in your chrolology.

What happened after the two witnesses finished their 1260 day witness to cause the kingdoms of this world to become the kingdoms of the Lord and his Christ?

Please note, Daniel gave the last 3 1/2 year time twice as time, times and the dividing of time. Then John gave this same period of time FIVE MORE times in days, in months and again as Daniel did. These times are all events that will begin near the midpoint and go to the end of the week.

Rev. 11
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Question, do we consider then that the timing of verse 3 is 42 months after verse 3? Do we consider that there are 42 months BETWEEN these verses? I have never yet heard anyone say that. I don't believe that is the author's intent.

Do we consider verse 4 is 1260 days after verse 3, or that there are 1260 days between these two verses?

Rev 12
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Do we consider that there are 1260 days between these verses - that the war begins 1260 days after the woman flees?

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

Do we consider that there are 3.5 years between these verses?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

Do we consider that there are 42 months between these verse and he will not open his mouth until 42 months have passed?

I could do the same with Daniel's two mentions of the 3.5 years, but it is already ridiculous. OF COURSE we do not consider that this times runs out in any of these verses. We should understand that the time BEGINS at the mention of these times. So all these verses are very near the exact midpoint of the week, since all are about events that start at the midpoint and go to the end.

So then, since in 4 of these five you DON'T consider the next verse as 3.5 years later, WHY do you consider 11:14 as 1260 days after 11:3? Why? Just because John chose to give us more information in this one case?

My point is, verses 11:4 through 11:13 should be considered as a PARENTHESIS, or side trail.

Notice what happens:

Verse 2, the man of sin shows up in Jerusalem with his Gentile armies. He has to arrive there to walk into the temple. WHEN does he arrive? It must be close to the abomination, else God could not have written 42 months. My guess is, about 3 1/2 days before the abomination.

Verse 3, the two witnesses show up? They show up almost INSTANTLY after the man of sin arrives! They come because HE comes! They show up exactly 3 1/2 days before the abomination, The two witnesses time is accurate to the day. They will testify for 1260 days, which will get them close to the 7th vial that ends the week. They lay dead for 3 1/2 days and then are resurrected with the other Old Testament saints on the last day, at the 7th vial that ends the week.

So 3 1/2 days later the man of sin does his abomination. (The 7th trumpet marks this event on earth.)

12:6 the woman flees into the wilderness...WHY? Because she has just seen the abomination and she (those living in Judea) are doing exactly what Jesus told them to do.
12:14, the woman is protected for 3.5 years.

So what happens if we ADD the 1260 days before the 7th trumpet (that marks the exact midpoint)? We push the abomination event to the END of the week. We have the woman fleeing at the END of the week.
And now the week is 1260 plus 1260 plus 42 months!

NO NO NO! The intent of the author is that 11:4 through 11:13 are considered as a parenthesis with NO BEARING on chronology, so this one timeframe out of the five matches the other 4. All five begin close to the abomination and ends close to the 7th vial that ends the week.

So with verses 4-13 as a side journey, this is what will happen:

Verse 2, the man of sin shows up in Jerusalem with his Gentile armies. He has to arrive there to walk into the temple. WHEN does he arrive? It must be close to the abomination, else God could not have written 42 months. I will guess 3 1/2 days plus or minus a few minutes, before the abomination.

Verse 3, the two witnesses show up. They show up almost INSTANTLY after the man of sin arrives! They come because HE comes! They show up exactly 3 1/2 days before the abomination,

So 3 1/2 days later the man of sin does his abomination. .....The 7th trumpet sounds marking this event on earth.

12:6 the woman flees into the wilderness...WHY? Because she has just seen the abomination and she (those living in Judea) are doing exactly what Jesus told them to do: FLEE.

12:7 Michael goes after Satan to cast him down. Adam's lease has expired (at the 7th trumpet) and the Kingdoms have been transferred to Jesus! Hallelujah! Suddenly the lease Satan as usurped for 6000 years has ENDED! Michael wastes NO TIME in kicking him DOWN. Michael has been waiting for this trumpet blast for a long long time! Time? One second after the abomination and 7th trumpet. (It might take Michael one second to find him!)

12:14, the woman is protected for 3.5 years. Perhaps not a day after the abomination. Perhaps only a few hours.

13:5 the beast is given his 42 months.

Since all of these times END very near the 7th vial, there is simply NO TIME to add any time between any of these events.

I know many think the two witnesses testify in the first half. I can assure you, that is NOT the intent of the author. They come because the man of sin comes. They come IMMEDIATELY after He comes. they show up IN THE NEXT VERSE. That is not by accident. They could show up just a few seconds after the man of sin comes. John does not give us that specific timing.

Lamad

The man child is the catching up of the body of Christ in mid tribulation. They will be the first resurrection kings and priests of God and will rule and reign with Christ for the 1,000 yrs. He is the head of his body making his holy virgin body MALE. A holy nation born in one day and caught up to God's throne rather it be in heaven or on mount Zion as government of God's kingdom.

Isa 66:6-13
6 A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.
7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.
10 Rejoice ye with {HEAVENLY} Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her{EARTHLY JERUSALEM THAT WILL BE RAVISHED}:
11 That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.
12 For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees.
13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.
KJV

The children of God shall be birthed by our mother heavenly Jerusalem above for all creation awaits the birth/manifestation of the sons of God born in the image of Christ who is the man child(son's of God) that will be caught up just as Satan and his angels are thrown down to earth.
Those who were not ready spiritually at his coming for the body he left on earth to continue his work, shall go into the place prepared by God for further spiritual feeding.

Rev 12:5-6
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
KJV

 

[veteran]

The third Woe of Rev.11 occurs with the coming of the 7th Trumpet, the last trump. That's when Christ Jesus will come and gather His Church and destroy His enemies and take rule over all nations upon this earth.

The DECIEVER who started this thread has REVEALED theirself here to us believers on Christ Jesus.

Because Rev.11 reveals the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe period events have God and His Son in power and reiging over All.. the kingdoms on earth at that point, it has to mean the Woe of Rev.12:7 forward HAD ALREADY ENDED!

That's not an easy mistake to make. One must 'calculate' on purpose to make that kind of mistake about the Scripture.

 

[iamlamad]

The third Woe of Rev.11 occurs with the coming of the 7th Trumpet, the last trump. That's when Christ Jesus will come and gather His Church and destroy His enemies and take rule over all nations upon this earth.

The DECIEVER who started this thread has REVEALED theirself here to us believers on Christ Jesus.

Because Rev.11 reveals the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe period events have God and His Son in power and reiging over All.. the kingdoms on earth at that point, it has to mean the Woe of Rev.12:7 forward HAD ALREADY ENDED!

That's not an easy mistake to make. One must 'calculate' on purpose to make that kind of mistake about the Scripture.

Veteran, you need to re-study this with preconceived glasses off.

All bibles shows us Jesus coming on the white horse in chapter 19, NOT IN CHAPTER 11. You are adding human reasoning to what John wrote. Jesus will NOT be coming at the 7th trumpet. That is the MIDDLE of the week, and Jesus does not come until AFTER the week.

Do you not understand the difference between ownership and possession? The kingdoms of the world are BECOME the Kingdoms of our Lord. Before this moment, Satan was in control of the kingdoms of the world, but his lease ran out. Jesus took over the planet. However, Jesus does not take physical possession until AFTER the week has finished. When He comes on the white horse, THEN He will take possession.

He does come before this time, to get His church pretrib, just before the 6th seal. But you don't believe that either, even though it is truth.

it has to mean the Woe of Rev.12:7 forward HAD ALREADY ENDED!

This is like dominoes, one falls and they all fall. Because you have erred on Jesus coming, now you err here too. Get this straight: Jesus comes BEFORE the week FOR his saints, and AFTER the week WITH His saints - and no time between these points. The events of Revelation 12 come AFTER the events of Rev. 11. (except for the parentheiss of verses 1-5)
Any time you feel the urge to rearrange, just know you will be WRONG. John wrote with God given chronology. It is really silly to think a man knows the timing better than God.

Lamad

The man child is the catching up of the body of Christ in mid tribulation. They will be the first resurrection kings and priests of God and will rule and reign with Christ for the 1,000 yrs. He is the head of his body making his holy virgin body MALE. A holy nation born in one day and caught up to God's throne rather it be in heaven or on mount Zion as government of God's kingdom.

Isa 66:6-13
6 A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.
7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.
10 Rejoice ye with {HEAVENLY} Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her{EARTHLY JERUSALEM THAT WILL BE RAVISHED}:
11 That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.
12 For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees.
13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.
KJV

The children of God shall be birthed by our mother heavenly Jerusalem above for all creation awaits the birth/manifestation of the sons of God born in the image of Christ who is the man child(son's of God) that will be caught up just as Satan and his angels are thrown down to earth.
Those who were not ready spiritually at his coming for the body he left on earth to continue his work, shall go into the place prepared by God for further spiritual feeding.

Rev 12:5-6
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
KJV

The man child is the catching up of the body of Christ in mid tribulation.

You have TOTALLY missed the intent of the Author here. This chapter is God introducing John to the dragon, and in particular what the Dragon would be doing during the last half of the week (Because John is at the midpoint here). God then chose to show John what the dragon DID (past tense: history) when Jesus was born. That is the Author's intent here. You are readying MUCH MORE into these verses than the intention of the Author. NO ONE gets caught up at the middle except for perhaps the 144,000 who are seen in heaven in chapter 14.

OF COURSE Jesus was born of Israel. OF course the dragon tried to kill Him as a child. (King Herod.) OF COURSE He was caught up to heaven, after His 32 years of ministry. This is the meaning. I would not add to it if I were you.

Lamad

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Not sure if it is relevant .... but the last use of "woe" in the KJV is in rev 12 ...... however you will notice the NIV uses "woe" several more times later on in ch 18 and it is used is in regards to the fall of Babylon

Revelation 18:9
[ Threefold Woe Over Babylon’s Fall ] “When the kings of the earth who committed adultery with her and shared her luxury see the smoke of her burning, they will weep and mourn over her.

Revelation 18:10
Terrified at her torment, they will stand far off and cry: “‘Woe! Woe to you, great city, you mighty city of Babylon! In one hour your doom has come!’

Revelation 18:16
and cry out: “‘Woe! Woe to you, great city, dressed in fine linen, purple and scarlet, and glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls!

Revelation 18:19
They will throw dust on their heads, and with weeping and mourning cry out: “‘Woe! Woe to you, great city, where all who had ships on the sea became rich through her wealth! In one hour she has been brought to ruin!’


Like I said ..... it may not be related to the ... "three woes" .... but I just wanted to point it out

A Greek concordance should be able to tell us if it is the same usage in all places

Anyone feel like looking it up ?

A.M.

 

[veteran]

Veteran, you need to re-study this with preconceived glasses off.

All bibles shows us Jesus coming on the white horse in chapter 19, NOT IN CHAPTER 11. You are adding human reasoning to what John wrote. Jesus will NOT be coming at the 7th trumpet. That is the MIDDLE of the week, and Jesus does not come until AFTER the week.

Do you not understand the difference between ownership and possession? The kingdoms of the world are BECOME the Kingdoms of our Lord. Before this moment, Satan was in control of the kingdoms of the world, but his lease ran out. Jesus took over the planet. However, Jesus does not take physical possession until AFTER the week has finished. When He comes on the white horse, THEN He will take possession.

He does come before this time, to get His church pretrib, just before the 6th seal. But you don't believe that either, even though it is truth.

it has to mean the Woe of Rev.12:7 forward HAD ALREADY ENDED!

This is like dominoes, one falls and they all fall. Because you have erred on Jesus coming, now you err here too. Get this straight: Jesus comes BEFORE the week FOR his saints, and AFTER the week WITH His saints - and no time between these points. The events of Revelation 12 come AFTER the events of Rev. 11. (except for the parentheiss of verses 1-5)
Any time you feel the urge to rearrange, just know you will be WRONG. John wrote with God given chronology. It is really silly to think a man knows the timing better than God.

Lamad

The man child is the catching up of the body of Christ in mid tribulation.

You have TOTALLY missed the intent of the Author here. This chapter is God introducing John to the dragon, and in particular what the Dragon would be doing during the last half of the week (Because John is at the midpoint here). God then chose to show John what the dragon DID (past tense: history) when Jesus was born. That is the Author's intent here. You are readying MUCH MORE into these verses than the intention of the Author. NO ONE gets caught up at the middle except for perhaps the 144,000 who are seen in heaven in chapter 14.

OF COURSE Jesus was born of Israel. OF course the dragon tried to kill Him as a child. (King Herod.) OF COURSE He was caught up to heaven, after His 32 years of ministry. This is the meaning. I would not add to it if I were you.

Lamad

No "preconceived glasses" here bud.

When Jesus taught us about the "great tribulation" events per His Olivet Discourse, He didn't intend for us to play Russian roulette with those events He taught, and try to FORCE them to fit a doctrine of men like the fly away Pre-Trib Rapture.

The war in Heaven between Michael and Satan per Rev.12:7 is what this Daniel Scripture is about...

Dan 12:1-2
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
(KJV)

The Hebrew word for that "stand up" means to 'stand one's ground' (Strong's 5975 - Brown-Driver-Briggs definition). Then note what immediately follows, i.e., the great tribulation time, for that part in bold red is the same idea Christ warned about in His Olivet Discourse of Matt.24 and Mark 13.

And since the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe is about Christ taking reign over all the kingdoms on this earth, that means tribulation time is over with that trumpet and woe.

Or don't you guys actually believe The Scripture about Christ Jesus returning to this earth to subdue ALL... His enemies on earth, and begin His eternal reign, and locking Satan in the pit for the thousand years of Rev.20? I mean, many of you here talk up a big show as if you're studied in God's Word, but then reveal you're very lacking in Bible study.

 

[Brothertom]

"We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned."

The third & final woe to the Earth, is that God Himself is angry, & will slay all who Hate Him......& the blood will run deep, even unto the Bridles of a horse.......

"The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,...[ even unto Hell itself...]

And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
.........................[ & here is the WOE PART ] "

"And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

....That is everyone who rejects Jesus......Most of the Earth I think.....Billions of people guaranteed to die....that is a big Woe for the World, & Peace & Music to the Redeemed.

 

[BLACK SHEEP]

Not sure if it is relevant .... but the last use of "woe" in the KJV is in rev 12 ...... however you will notice the NIV uses "woe" several more times later on in ch 18 and it is used is in regards to the fall of Babylon

Revelation 18:9
[ Threefold Woe Over Babylon’s Fall ] “When the kings of the earth who committed adultery with her and shared her luxury see the smoke of her burning, they will weep and mourn over her.

Revelation 18:10
Terrified at her torment, they will stand far off and cry: “‘Woe! Woe to you, great city, you mighty city of Babylon! In one hour your doom has come!’

Revelation 18:16
and cry out: “‘Woe! Woe to you, great city, dressed in fine linen, purple and scarlet, and glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls!

Revelation 18:19
They will throw dust on their heads, and with weeping and mourning cry out: “‘Woe! Woe to you, great city, where all who had ships on the sea became rich through her wealth! In one hour she has been brought to ruin!’


Like I said ..... it may not be related to the ... "three woes" .... but I just wanted to point it out

A Greek concordance should be able to tell us if it is the same usage in all places

Anyone feel like looking it up ?

A.M.

It's the same word as alas.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3759&t=KJV

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

It's the same word as alas.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3759&t=KJV

thanks Kaotic

 

[KevinMiller]

Luke 17:26-30
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Luke 17:26-30
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

What does this have to do with the three woes ?

 

[BLACK SHEEP]

thanks Kaotic

It was a good question since I didn't know they were the same word!

 

[veteran]

Luke 17:26-30
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Yeah, but... have you actually read the REST of what our Lord Jesus was showing there about the timing of His coming and our gathering to Him?

Luke 17:33-37
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

What did He mean by that? If you try to save your life you'll loose it. And if you lose your life you will have preserved it? How does that affect belief on the Pre-Trib secret fly away rapture doctrine of men?

Well, isn't it those who seek to save their life by flying away to escape the coming tribulation the ones our Lord Jesus is talking about seeking to save their life? His Message is to stand in Him to go through the tribulation, and even if you are delivered up and killed for making that stand, you will have preserved your Salvation in Him, and given a crown of Life. Our Lord Jesus said to not fear those who can kill our flesh body but not our soul (Matt.10:28).


34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

One is 'taken', the other is left. So which... one does the Pre-Trib fly away Rapture doctrine teach is being saved there? They teach the one 'taken' is the one saved by a rapture to Heaven. But how did our Lord Jesus really... mean that? Have to understand what He said in the next verse to know...


37 And they answered and said unto Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
(KJV)

Christ's disciples there then ask Him exactly 'where' those 'taken' would be taken to. Our Lord Jesus uses a metaphor in answer. In the Matt.24:28 verse parallel to His answer here, the word for "body" is "carcase" instead, meaning a dead body.

Birds of prey like eagles don't go after what is already dead like a 'carcase'; eagles instead kill their prey. So these eagles actually represent vultures. Jesus' answer is wherever you find a dead carcase, that's where you will find vultures gathered together, feasting on the dead carcase.

In that sense, the vultures are put for Satan's host during the tribulation, and those 'taken' as the deceived, i.e., dead carcases his host gather around to feast upon. Thus those in Christ Jesus do NOT... want to be one of those 'taken' per that Luke 17:34-36 Scripture.

 

[iamlamad]

No "preconceived glasses" here bud.

When Jesus taught us about the "great tribulation" events per His Olivet Discourse, He didn't intend for us to play Russian roulette with those events He taught, and try to FORCE them to fit a doctrine of men like the fly away Pre-Trib Rapture.

The war in Heaven between Michael and Satan per Rev.12:7 is what this Daniel Scripture is about...

Dan 12:1-2
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
(KJV)

The Hebrew word for that "stand up" means to 'stand one's ground' (Strong's 5975 - Brown-Driver-Briggs definition). Then note what immediately follows, i.e., the great tribulation time, for that part in bold red is the same idea Christ warned about in His Olivet Discourse of Matt.24 and Mark 13.

And since the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe is about Christ taking reign over all the kingdoms on this earth, that means tribulation time is over with that trumpet and woe.

Or don't you guys actually believe The Scripture about Christ Jesus returning to this earth to subdue ALL... His enemies on earth, and begin His eternal reign, and locking Satan in the pit for the thousand years of Rev.20? I mean, many of you here talk up a big show as if you're studied in God's Word, but then reveal you're very lacking in Bible study.

Preconceived glasses; preconceived theories: they are the same.

When Jesus taught us about the "great tribulation" events per His Olivet Discourse, He didn't intend for us to play Russian roulette with those events He taught, and try to FORCE them to fit a doctrine of men like the fly away Pre-Trib Rapture.

You have this backwards: pretribbers don't see the rapture AT ALL in Matt. 24. That is a posttrib false theory. Paul's rapture comes 7 years before that gathering in Matt. 24. Pretribbers don't believe Jesus was speaking to the church here; but to the JEWS. This is the period of "Daniel's 70th week" and is not about the church. Did you not read: "24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city..." Do you REALLY see the church in this verse? It is "upon THY people," speaking of Israel. It is speaking of Jerusalem. Pretribbers don't see the church in this verse.

I agree with you here, in Dan. 12 when Michael STANDS UP, it is because he is about to go to war with Satan, to cast Him down. The time of this verse and Rev. 12:7 is the same. The "time of trouble" is certainly speaking of what Jesus said, "For then shall be great tribulation." I think "stand up" fits it as well as anything else, unless Strongs #6: "6) to arise, appear, come on the scene, stand forth, appear, rise up or against"

But then you come up with this:
And since the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe is about Christ taking reign over all the kingdoms on this earth, that means tribulation time is over with that trumpet and woe.

This is simply WRONG THINKING! It does not fit the scriptures. Oh, I know you THINK it does. You still have not got your thinking around Jesus taking control but not possession. Jesus does not return to earth until AFTER the 70th week has finished. Please, go refresh your thinking again: He comes in chapter 19, AFTER the week has ended. Did you not notice that chapter 13 that describes those events that cause the days of great tribulation comes in the next chapter AFTER chapter 12? Perhaps you did not notice that it was not until chapter 14 that the Angel warns people NOT to take the mark? So the really bad days are still future to chapter 14! If you understood John's Chronology, you would know that in chapter 16 when the first vial is poured out, the days of great tribulation will be at their PEAK! I guess you don't understand John's chronology, and think you have a right to change it.

Lamad

 

[veteran]

Preconceived glasses; preconceived theories: they are the same.

When Jesus taught us about the "great tribulation" events per His Olivet Discourse, He didn't intend for us to play Russian roulette with those events He taught, and try to FORCE them to fit a doctrine of men like the fly away Pre-Trib Rapture.

You have this backwards: pretribbers don't see the rapture AT ALL in Matt. 24. That is a posttrib false theory. Paul's rapture comes 7 years before that gathering in Matt. 24. Pretribbers don't believe Jesus was speaking to the church here; but to the JEWS. This is the period of "Daniel's 70th
week" and is not about the church. Did you not read: "24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city..." Do you REALLY see the church in this verse? It is "upon THY people," speaking of Israel. It is speaking of Jerusalem. Pretribbers don't see the church in this verse.

If you really knew what you were talking about, you'd know the events of Christ's Olivet Discourse directly parallel the events of His Revelation for His Church. You've been lied to. Christ's coming and gathering of Matt.24 and Mark 13 is His SAME coming of 1 Thess.4 and 1 Cor.15.

Also, it's Dispensationalists... that don't believe Jesus was speaking to His Church in Matt.24 and Mark 13. Not all the churches on the false Pre-trib fly away rapture doctrine even follow Dispensationalist doctrines from false prophets like C.R. Stam. But it's still easy to know those are telling a lie too, since Christ's disciples and Apostles upon the Mount of Olives with Him WERE the FOUNDATION of... the early Christian Church! (At that particular time of Christ's Olivet Discourse, Saul whom Christ would later strike down on the road to Damascus, was still... persecuting Christ's Church as he himself admitted in Galatians 1.)

It is SO STUPID to think that in Matt.24 and Mark 13 our Lord Jesus was speaking to UNBELIEVING JEWS that refused Him! Even a first grader can figure out that's a complete LIE!

 

[iamlamad]

If you really knew what you were talking about, you'd know the events of Christ's Olivet Discourse directly parallel the events of His Revelation for His Church. You've been lied to. Christ's coming and gathering of Matt.24 and Mark 13 is His SAME coming of 1 Thess.4 and 1 Cor.15.

Also, it's Dispensationalists... that don't believe Jesus was speaking to His Church in Matt.24 and Mark 13. Not all the churches on the false Pre-trib fly away rapture doctrine even follow Dispensationalist doctrines from false prophets like C.R. Stam. But it's still easy to know those are telling a lie too, since Christ's disciples and Apostles upon the Mount of Olives with Him WERE the FOUNDATION of... the early Christian Church! (At that particular time of Christ's Olivet Discourse, Saul whom Christ would later strike down on the road to Damascus, was still... persecuting Christ's Church as he himself admitted in Galatians 1.)

It is SO STUPID to think that in Matt.24 and Mark 13 our Lord Jesus was speaking to UNBELIEVING JEWS that refused Him! Even a first grader can figure out that's a complete LIE!

He was speaking to HIS APOSTLES! Did you miss that point? Again, go back to Daniel 9 and see WHO the 70th week is for: Daniel tells us it was for HIS PEOPLE. Why is this so hard for you to understand? It is NOT ABOUT the church at all, it is about the JEWS. Your blinders (preconceptions) have blinded you to the fact that PAUL's rapture gathers at a time of peace and safety, and is the trigger for the day. Veteran, EVERYONE knows the trigger comes before the blast! The rapture comes BEFORE the day of the Lord. Paul's rapture gathers from EARTH, not heaven. There is simply NO WAY one can prove that the gathering in Matt. 24 is the church, and several ways one can prove it cannot be. What age where they IN? Jesus was the final prophet of the Old Covenant. They asked what would be the sign for the end of the age: THEIR age. The end of THEIR age would be the Day of the Lord and the 70th week, which has NOTHING to do with the church. That is why John shows us the church in heaven, around the throne, in chapter 7, BEFORE John even begins the Day and the Week. Your timing is SO mixed up!

Lamad