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What is the trinity?

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by eradicator, Mar 9, 2008.

  1. dragonfly

    dragonfly Well-Known Member

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    That's a tall order! I don't think it's possible to separate them.

    Are you saying you think I have (insinuated that), or, are you just pre-empting any possibility of it? (This is such an enormous, largely man-made topic, that I'm not even looking for contradictions! To me, 'the trinity' is a way of defining part of God, not the whole).

    Perhaps my first response in this post tells you that I was not intending to allocate one name of God to the Father, and another name of God to the Son. I brought up the Hebrew names because I believe they help us to understand both the unity and the diversity within the Godhead.

    I'm sure this response doesn't take us materially further forward, but I'm not trying to trip you or anyone up. I'm just sharing what I see as a difficulty in attempting to pin 'God' down too securely with terms which by some, may be understood over-simplistically. I don't mean you do that.

    In Genesis 1, Elohiym is used thirty-two times. It's the only name God is given. Early in Genesis 2, Yahweh is added to Elohiym.

    Then, this in Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: YHVH our ELOHIYM is one YHVH:
    5 And thou shalt love YHVH thy ELOHIYM with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

    (SNB) Jeremiah 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith YHVH, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. 6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, YHVH OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

    Now, I'm not sure about this one, because it's from the NT, which we know was written in Greek originally. But, it goes with Jeremiah.

    Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of YHVH shall be saved.


    Yahweh is the personal name of God, whereas Elohiym is more of a description. There are other names too, like El and El Shaddai. I know that Hebrew is dense with meaning, but I can't explain it like someone who's studied it, and has its alphabet at their fingertips.
     
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  2. Rex

    Rex New Member

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    If we simply use Strongs we can see in the very first instance one is plural and one is singular

    3068 Yhovah yeh-ho-vaw' from 1961; (the) self-Existent or Eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God:--Jehovah, the Lord. Compare 3050, 3069.
    3050 Yahh yaw contraction for 3068, and meaning the same; Jah, the sacred name:--Jah, the Lord, most vehement. Compare names in "-iah," "- jah."
    3069 Yhovih yeh-ho-vee' a variation of 3068 (used after 136, and pronounced by Jews as 430, in order to prevent the repetition of the same sound, since they elsewhere pronounce 3068 as 136):--God.

    430 'elohiym el-o-heem' plural of 433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative:--angels, X exceeding, God (gods)(-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.
    433 'elowahh el-o'-ah; rarely (shortened) >eloahh {el-o'-ah probably prolonged (emphat.) from 410; a deity or the Deity:--God, god. See 430.


    Well Dragonfly in the use of elohiym who would be the most likely candidates, of ONE GOD manifest in two persons.

    John 10
    29 My Father which gave them me is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
    I and My Father are one.

    Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I

    How much more would you care make the point of one God in two persons.

    I don't know what your aversion to scripture spoken by Jesus Himself----> for my Father is greater than I------>My Father which gave them me is greater than all

    If there is an error here, does this clear up as you said

    I'm not big on the term trinity myself its an abused term and holds different meanings. Most that deny it, deny Christ.
    Whats man made about what Jesus said?

    IMO the only thing that came to the table with Elohiym is its just as Jesus said He and the father are one, one being Jesus the image of the Father but in every form including worship is for all practical purposes God that we are told to worship, that threw Him we also will become Sons. Though we will never be greater than Jesus our teacher savor, redeemer, our light that will someday present us to the father. You will never see or Know the father unless you know the Son. The very Glory Of Jesus is impossible to behold by men, we went threw this with Moses in the rock, How much more devastating would the very presents of the Father be to a fallen broken creation. In whom Jesus said is greater than HE.
     
  3. John_8:32

    John_8:32 New Member

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    Seems to me Paul was rude to the Holy Spirit, if indeed the Holy Spirit is the third part of a trinity...

    Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
    Rom 1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
    Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
    Rom 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
    Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
    Rom 1:6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
    Rom 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

    1Co 1:1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
    1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
    1Co 1:3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

    2Co 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:
    2Co 1:2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
    2Co 1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;

    Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
    Gal 1:2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:
    Gal 1:3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,

    Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
    Eph 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
    Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

    Php 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:
    Php 1:2 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Col 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,
    Col 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
    Col 1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

    1Th 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

    2Th 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
    2Th 1:2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

    1Ti 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;

    2Ti 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,
    2Ti 1:2 To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

    Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

    Phm 1:1 Paul, a prisoner of Jesus Christ, and Timothy our brother, unto Philemon our dearly beloved, and fellowlabourer,
    Phm 1:2 And to our beloved Apphia, and Archippus our fellowsoldier, and to the church in thy house:
    Phm 1:3 Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
    Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    Paul never once mentions the Holy Spirit in his salutations of any of the epistles he wrote. Interestingly enough, neither did James, Peter, John or Jude. Hmmm, strange oversight there, or maybe not an oversight. Maybe they understood there was no trinity and the Holy Spirit is not the third person of a closed Godhead, but rather the power, substance (for lack of a better term), and energy of the divine Elohim. A family of two that is to be enlarged to include billions of children.
     
  4. Rex

    Rex New Member

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    Good point
    Like I said I've been wondering like I mentioned on the last page, and never liked the term trinity.

    Eph 4
    4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you[a] all.


    Perhaps one clue would be we worship in the spirit,

    23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

    The Spirit is not recognized as receiving worship but is the vehicle of worship. Or the spirit is not recognized as being separate or apart, Just as Jesus said, He is not separate or apart from the Father. If you have known me you have known the Father "paraphrased"
     
  5. dragonfly

    dragonfly Well-Known Member

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    Hi John,

    I've noticed that before, too. That's part of the reason for my comment about 'the trinity' being a man-made topic.


    Hi Rex,

    I don't have any aversion to what Jesus said, or to what the apostles said. I take it all together as the word of God. I see it more as turning a many-faceted jewel around and around to see how the light shines through it from different angles, than as an object to be divided every which way. Does that make sense? I feel as if we must be having trouble communicating, because of some of your replies, but I am not aware of any hostility in my attitudes, which seem to be what you are picking up. I hope I do better in this post... but please keep challenging me, if not. :ph34r:

    My 'man-made' reference is to 'the doctrine of the trinity', and nothing to do with anything Christ said.

    Elohiym means more than two. It means more than three - - - - more like several. Wikipedia tries to explain the use of the singular verb with a plural noun, by offering the translation 'Power over powers' (my paraphrase), but if 'El' is the singular of Elohiym, and El means 'strong one', then 'power' seems a bit secularised, to me.

    (El Shaddai is also of great importance, since the KJV translates it 'God Almighty', which is a bit more macho than it really means.)


    This is a quote from post #17 on p1. I think it helps to explain what the Hebrew expresses.

    '... Both Elohim and Adonai, in Hebrew, are examples of "compound unity" names...indicating "several or many in one". Take the verse Deuteronomy 6:4 where Moses said, "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our GOD is one LORD." In Hebrew it is, "Shema Israel, Adonai Elohenu, Adonai, Echad." The Jews call this verse the SHEMA. The SHEMA shows us that God, Elohim, is a UNITY in PLURALITY. The Hebrew word Elohim is a plural form, being a UNITY in PLURALITY. The "ELOHENU" of the SHEMA is "our God" and is a plural word form. The "Adonai," The Lord, is also a plural word. So the SHEMA clearly identifies God as a plural unity. The final word in the SHEMA is Echad and this settles it once and for all because Echad is a "compound unity" meaning "several or many in one." Yachid is another Hebrew word for "one" and it means "an absolute, indivisible unity." Because yachid is used hundreds of times in the Hebrew of the Old Testament Bible, it is never used to describe the "oneness" of God...echad is used ...'

    What about John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. ? and 2 Corinthians 3:18? I really like how Tyndale (the Bible translater) has put it in his NT of 1534 -

    17 The Lord no doubt is a spirit. And where the spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all behold the glory of the Lord with his face open, and are changed into the same similitude, from glory to glory, even of the spirit of the Lord.'
    [This is a comparison with Moses' face being veiled. I didn't 'get' that for quite a while after the first time I read it.]


    What do you think of these words (of a hymn)? (Tune: Newcastle) I think they capture some of what you expressed. Psalm 18:11.

    Eternal Light! eternal Light!
    How pure the soul must be
    When, placed within Thy searching sight,
    It shrinks not, but with calm delight
    Can live, and look on Thee!

    The spirits that surround Thy throne
    May bear the burning bliss;
    But that is surely theirs alone,
    Since they have never, never known
    A fallen world like this.

    O how shall I, whose native sphere
    Is dark, whose mind is dim,
    Before the Ineffable appear,
    And on my naked spirit bear
    That uncreated beam?

    There is a way for man to rise
    To that sublime abode:
    An offering and a sacrifice,
    A Holy Spirit’s energies,
    An Advocate with God.

    These, these prepare us for the sight
    Of holiness above;
    The sons of ignorance and night,
    May dwell in the eternal Light,
    Through the eternal Love.


    This is pretty awesome, too. The full translation of Yahweh is about God Himself being more than we can conceive (v 20).

    Ephesians 3:14 - 21
    For this cause I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, that he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; and to know the love of Christ, which passes knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    20 Now to him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us, to him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.


    The Holy Spirit is what connects us to God. The moment we begin to pray consciously, our spirits interface with the eternal Spirit in a conscious way - with a sense of eternity which dawning upon the understanding, during prayer. We are, also, continuously in God's presence (through the Spirit), and we depend on Him to speak to us and prompt us, and call us back from making mistakes. When we worship in Spirit, He nurtures us in a special way.

    Getting back to the question of 'the trinity', what do you do with Zechariah 3:9, and references to 'the seven spirits of God'?
     
  6. Rex

    Rex New Member

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    I'm not a fan of the term but it doesn't negate the fact that all three are the same God
    Father
    Son
    Spirit
    If you remove any one you don't have salvation as it is presented in the bible
    Yes that's a pretty simple truth, by examining one doesn't negate the other.
     
  7. dragonfly

    dragonfly Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. I am not trying to remove anything, but rather, to get the whole revelation of God through scripture, included in any definition.
     
  8. Rex

    Rex New Member

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    Then I glad to hear you don't necessarily have an issue with looking at where God the Father "begins" to manifest in Christ.
    Because Paul clearly didn't mention the fathers part of Elohim, but simply said "He is the image of the invisible God" but chose to focus or magnify the Jesus part in the creation of all things.

    15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
     
  9. SilenceInMotion

    SilenceInMotion New Member

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    Yes. It is tentamount to traditional Christianity, actually.

    When looking at Scripture, some people claim to find contradictions because they look at the Trinity the wrong way. When this happens, they usually mistake the Trinity for modalism.

    Modalism is the perception that God works in 'modes', as in He simply manifests as different beings, but it is nonetheless a theological error- the Trinity is actually three different beings wrapped up into one, single Logos, or Logic.

    When following the appropriate doctrine of the Trinity, there are no contradictions in Scripture.
     
  10. dragonfly

    dragonfly Well-Known Member

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    Take a deep breath. I would refer to Him as the Son, before He was incarnated, and I would not call Him Christ, yet, although.... (thinking aloud) while I would definitely not call Him 'Jesus' back then, (His personal name), perhaps to be given His title is okay. Part of the reason for making that distinction, is to line up our thinking with the reality that there were no 'Christians' in the Old Testament era, although there were saints.

    But this is the whole problem with this topic. The Son is one with the Father. I am still looking at this in the Sacred Name Bible. Have come across these:

    Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of YAHSHUA MASHIYACH, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of ELOHIYM,
    3 Concerning his Son YAHSHUA MASHIYACH our ADONAY, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
    4 And declared to be the Son of ELOHIYM with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

    Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O ELOHIYM, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

    Ephesians 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from ELOHIYM our Father, and from the ADONAY YAHSHUA MASHIYACH.


    Here are more verses about God's goodness and revelation in creation.

    Romans 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God has showed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead ...'

    Acts 14:15 '... the living God ... made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein: ... 17 Nevertheless he left not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.
     
  11. Rex

    Rex New Member

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    I recognize that. My point was I don't disagree and nether did Paul EVEN THOUGH he didn't go into great detail, the truth is still present.
    I do believe most here understand your point, I have made it as well but apparently not to your satisfaction.
    They are one; but Jesus himself stated the Father is greater than he. Is this "a/the" problem?

    I am really finding it hard to see what point it is your so insistent on pursuing
    Can you just make it plain?

    I think I know what your getting at and its fine If you disagree.

    15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

    John 1:18
    John 6:46
    1 Tim 6:16
    1 John 4:12 and 20
    John 12:45
    John 4:23-24

    If you believe that it was the Father that covered Moses and allowed him to see His backside, or any other manifestation in the OT.
    then just say so, but your going to have to offer an explanation for the verses above.


     
  12. dragonfly

    dragonfly Well-Known Member

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    Hi Rex,

    Thank you for the questions.

    I think I'm having difficulty with allocating the name Elohiym to Father, because of the places that it is associated with the creative work of the Word, and Hebrews 1:8 in the Sacred Name Bible.

    You have offered me verses about seeing God - presumably you mean with the naked eye, and not with one's spiritual vision. Is that correct? And in return I would ask you to open up this page http://sacrednamebible.com/index.htm and read or glance over the following chapters:

    Genesis 2
    Exodus 24:10, 11
    Exodus 31:18, Exodus 32:16
    Exodus 32:27
    Exodus 33
    Exodus 34

    How can Elohiym and Yahweh be separated and/or confined to Father being one and Son being the other?
     
  13. Rex

    Rex New Member

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    As I said in a PM how can the verses below be saying that no one has seen God with spiritual eyes.
    Are not your spiritual eyes and ears opened at the revelation of Jesus, Paul says He is the image of the INVISIBLE GOD.

    They are the same one as Paul says------> the firstborn over all creation
    God made an image of Himself we know this was Jesus.

    Jesus said the Father and I are one, Just after He says the Father is greater than all.
    John 10:29-30

    Jesus said "the Father is greater than I"
    John 14:28
    Phil 2:6 -------> thou in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,

    and BTW thanks for beating around the bush about your difference of opinion.
    I'm glad I figured it out.
     
  14. John_8:32

    John_8:32 New Member

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    Just out of curiosity, who died?
     
  15. Selene

    Selene New Member

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    It was Christ who died, and Christ is God. Christ is 100% God and 100% man. Christ has a human nature and a divine nature; nevertheless, He is still God. Humans often try to make God logical so they can understand His nature, and they forget that God does not apply Himself to human logic. He is God and nothing is impossible for Him. In fact, He can defy human logic. Someone in another forum board once asked, "Can God create a rock so heavy that He cannot lift?" That question is a paradox. God is beyond a paradox. He transcends everything.

    Is it possible for God to become a man? Yes, scripture says that He became a man. HOW that came to be is the reason why we have faith.

    John 1:1-14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God......And the Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us, and we saw His glory, the glory as of the Father's only Son, full of grace and truth.

    Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    God is love (1 John 4:8, 1 John 4:16). Love is not going to send someone else to save us. Love will come down and save us Himself because that is what true Love is. All human parents love their children equally (or at least supposed to). If a human fathers sees his second child in danger, he would sacrifice his own life to save that second child because he loves that child. He is not going to send his first child to save his second one while he sits back. God is our Father, and He loves us with a love that He Himself will come down in the form of a man to save us. That is what true Love really is and as St. John said, "God is love."
     
  16. John_8:32

    John_8:32 New Member

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    Well, if Christ is God and they are not separate entities, (Christ is God, He is the word Johh 1:1-) but rather are a three in one or some such, then when He died, the others died also, because they are one.

    The truth is there is the Father and there is Christ (the LORD of the OT) Christ became flesh, and died for His creation to pay the price of sin. The Father was still in heaven...

    Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

    Because Christ had taken all sin upon Himself and become sin for us. When He died the price was paid in full.

    Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

    If they were one in the same, how could Christ say this?
     
  17. rjp34652@yahoo.com

    [email protected] Choir Loft

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    Read the Bible. It's there from front to back. The word, however, appears nowhere in it's pages.

    The discussion and the problem with the term and the word is that of committing an experience to human language. The experience I'm talking about is God and the several forms He takes.

    The human experience of God is Jesus.
    When God took it upon Himself to assume the same flesh that we bear He couldn't help but identify Himself by the things He did. A man is known by his fruits and the fruits of God in human form were shown in the form of headings, raising the dead (including Himself), and the profound wisdom that issued from His mouth like a river. It was said by those who heard Him speak that no man had ever spoken with such authority about things that had either been forgotten, deliberately ignored or never known. Much can be learned about a man from his death. Two thousand years later, the death of Jesus is still having an impact upon the world.

    The spiritual experience of God as Holy Spirit.
    The acts of the Holy Spirit were evident in scripture from the first page of the first book and exploded upon men after the resurrection of Jesus. Millions upon millions have attested to His work of grace personally - to convince of sin and to vindicate Jesus before the world.

    The historic experience of God as Father.
    In this the experience of God has been recorded most deeply in the Old Testament. The Jews, those who still recognize God anyway, were chosen by the Father to receive special blessing and as a vehicle to demonstrate divine providence and power.

    The trinity, therefore, is an academic attempt to define in human language, that which is most difficult to explain any other way. God has demonstrated Himself as the Father, walked among us as His incarnate son and sealed us for redemption as His spirit.

    The three fold experience of God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit is contained albeit imperfectly in the doctrine of the trinity. To deny any of the three revelations of God is to set foot upon the unholy ground of agnosticism, atheism and worst of all - scoffer.

    God forbid that those who are enlightened as to the holy nature of God should have it taken from them.

    but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...
     
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