What is this thing called "sin"?

[FHII]

I am pretty much the opposite of everything FHII said.

You are welcome, pretty Lady

Well, there you go. Textbook case studies of one who believes in grace through faith and another who believes in following the law of death for salvation.

 

[StanJ]

Yes and God made a covenant with Noah that partly resulted in Israel. And I also acknowledge the Davidic covenant. Yet directly with Israel and these people there was a Suzerian Treaty style covenant where Israel bound themselves by oath in a covenant with God.
My question looks at the so called distinction of the 10 and wonders if there is a belief of a covenant of these and a different covenant also somehow. Thereby two covenants regarding the Law.

Right, and I don't believe any of them were dependant or additional to the others. IMO there was only 1 covenant that was based on the 10 commandments.

 

[heretoeternity]

Well, there you go. Textbook case studies of one who believes in grace through faith and another who believes in following the law of death for salvation.

Which are you? Do you have God's law written on your heart and mind?

 

[StanJ]

Okay guys, where is everyone at here? :huh: Please give a summary of your positions if you can. Thanks

As relates to the most recent issue, and NOT the OP, we are NOT under the ten commandments, as they constitute the OC. The NC is about Jesus as our saviour and living according to the power of the Holy Spirit in our lives. We KNOW by Him, what is right and wrong, and do NOT require written rules or commandments.

 

[StanJ]

In your mind, Stan.

What I have and know in Christ, I am sure of.
I did not come into these forums looking for an instructor, nor did I come here to instruct anyone. My purpose, as I stated in my profile when I joined, was to discuss my faith with other Christians, and to learn a bit about how other Christians viewed their faith.

I have rejected your offer to "properly instruct" me, Stan. I'm sure you think you are qualified...but it is that very arrogance in you that assures me that you are not.

Thank you anyway....but no thanks.

Actually I wasn't addressing you Barrd, but this just shows how you won't accept truth regardless of how it is dispensed.

 

[StanJ]

My position is that I'm tired of shoveling snow!
Oh! You mean about this thread. I've shoveled a lot of snow! I'm tired, loopy and I want soup!

So glad I don't need to do that anymore. Shovel I mean....I still like CHUNKY soup.

 

[Barrd]

Actually I wasn't addressing you Barrd, but this just shows how you won't accept truth regardless of how it is dispensed.

You were talking about me, Stan.
As I said, thanks....but no thanks.

 

[Barrd]

Well, there you go. Textbook case studies of one who believes in grace through faith and another who believes in following the law of death for salvation.

I believe that faith alone saves the Christian, just as you do, FHII.
But I also believe that faith without works is dead.
I do not obey Jesus in order to be saved...I obey Him from a heart full of gratitude because He has saved me.

My Lord and my God has said:

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

I love Him.

Do you?

 

[justaname]

Okay guys, where is everyone at here? :huh: Please give a summary of your positions if you can. Thanks

Being we were created in the image of God anything we do that is contrary to bringing Him glory is sin. We know Jesus always did what was pleasing to the Father, thus He is without sin. Sin goes deeper than outward observance to the Law as evidenced by pride, greed, gluttony, and so on. Therefore sin is more than just transgression of the Law, although it is true sin is transgression of the Law. If the Law was never established sin still would be present as evidenced by death being present before Moses.

The 10 commandments are only a portion of the Law of Moses. The Law and the Old Covenant are synonymous. Gentiles were never under the Law. Christians are not under the Law.

 

[FHII]

I believe that faith alone saves the Christian, just as you do, FHII.
But I also believe that faith without works is dead.
I do not obey Jesus in order to be saved...I obey Him from a heart full of gratitude because He has saved me.

My Lord and my God has said:

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

I love Him.

Do you?

Like I said, textbook case study.

Faith is not of works. Its not shoen by works either.

I know what Jesus's commandments are.

You don't. You clearly think they are the 10 commandments.

They aren't.

 

[Barrd]

Law of Moses vs The Ten Commandments:

The Law of Moses is called “Law contained in ordinances”
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

The Ten Commandments are called “The Royal Law”
Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

The Law of Moses was written by Moses in a book
2Ch 35:12 And they removed the burnt offerings, that they might give according to the divisions of the families of the people, to offer unto the LORD, as it is written in the book of Moses. And so did they with the oxen.

The Ten Commandments were written by God on tables of stone
Exo 31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

The Law of Moses was placed to the side of the Ark of the Covenant
Deu 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

The Ten Commandments were placed inside the Ark of the Covenant
Exo 40:20 And he took and put the testimony into the ark, and set the staves on the ark, and put the mercy seat above upon the ark:

The Law of Moses ended at the cross
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

The Ten Commandments will stand forever
Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

The Law of Moses is contrary to us
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

The Law of Moses was added because of sin
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

The Ten Commandments point out sin
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

The Law of Moses is contrary to us:
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

The Ten Commandments are not grievous
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

The Law of Moses judges no man
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

The Ten Commandments judges all men
Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Jas 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

The Law of Moses is Carnal
Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

The Ten Commandments are Spirituall
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

The Law of Moses made nothing perfect
Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

The Ten Commandments are perfect
Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
Psa 19:8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.

 

[Barrd]

Paul kept the law himself:
Act 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Act 25:8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.
Act 18:21 But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus.

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Paul says that doers of the law shall be justified:

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.


Here Paul says, not once, but twice, that we learn what sin is from the law:

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Here is a key scripture where Paul states that our faith does not make the law void, as some seem to think. Rather, our faith establishes the law.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

And again:

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

C'mon, Paul! Tell us what you really think of the Law!
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

I've heard some folks say that the law is carnal...but Paul says no.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Once more, Paul...what do you really think of the Law of God? We need to know!
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Does this sound as if Paul were teaching that the law had been abolished?
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

 

[OzSpen]

Okay guys, where is everyone at here? :huh: Please give a summary of your positions if you can. Thanks

Angelia,

Concerning this thing called sin, there are two aspects:

1. All unbelievers need to be cleaned from the guilt of sin. Only faith in Jesus alone will cause this to happen.

2. Since all believers still have a sinful nature that has not been eradicated, for the rest of their days they will have to deal with sinful thoughts and actions for which they will need to seek forgiveness from the Lord and from others. Our enemy, the Devil, will guarantee this battle with sin will not be easy to combat.

That's how I understand Scripture.

Oz

 

[FHII]

Barrd, I'm sorry. But that is about the worst hatchet job I've ever seen. I'm not even going to try to correct it. It'd be like trying to clean up after a hurricane with a sponge.

 

[OzSpen]

I really can't speak to your intent, but I have seen many of your replies that can get heated IMO. I can't point specifically to one but as you well know we were on many forums together.

Stan,

You have used a guilt by association logical fallacy. We can't have a logical discussion when you resort to this tactic.

Oz

 

[FHII]

I will give at least two examples. Eph 2:15 doed not say the law of moses. It says the law of commandments contained in ordinances (dogma or decrees). Barrd, you made up the part about being the law of moses!

Srcond. James 2:8 doesn't say the royal law is the 10 commandments. You made that part up too! The royal law is to love your neighbor. Same thing jesus said, Peter said, john said and paul said. NONE of them EVER said keep the 10 commandments.

 

[justaname]

I have shown where Jesus spoke of every one of the Ten Commandments.

Can you show me where He mentioned any of the other mitzvots?

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. - Matthew 23:23

8 He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.
9 And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery." - Matthew 19:8-9

But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. - Matthew 18:16


Here are a few and believe me there are more examples...then you can also look at my signature...neither of these commands are of the 10.


Still let me refer you to the first verse I quoted...notice what Jesus considers the weightier matters of the Law...not the 10 commandments.

Just to clarify this for you...the summary of the Law according to Jesus; Love the Lord your God and love your neighbor as yourself are not in the 10.

Then what Jesus considers as the weightier matters of the Law; justice, mercy, and faithfulness are not direct commandments in the 10 either.

Let me clarify one thing for you. I have not and will not ever teach you to disobey any of God's commands. What I do teach is we are not bound to the Law as Christians.

 

[StanJ]

Stan,

You have used a guilt by association logical fallacy. We can't have a logical discussion when you resort to this tactic.

Oz

Sorry but you are WRONG. I stated facts, and denying them by accusing me of something else, is definitely not what I would expect from you, so you're correct, we CANNOT have a fruitful conversation in this regard, and all you've really done is side tracked this thread.

Please let the mods do their job.

 

[OzSpen]

Sorry but you are WRONG. I stated facts, and denying them by accusing me of something else, is definitely not what I would expect from you, so you're correct, we CANNOT have a fruitful conversation in this regard, and all you've really done is side tracked this thread.

Please let the mods do their job.

Stan,

When you bring in how we participated on those forums and how we participate here you have engaged in guilt by association logical fallacy. That's a fact. Please examine the nature of the guilt by association fallacy (in that link) to note what you do.

You seem to be promoting the view that you are the one who is right and others are wrong. Can you get to the point that you also are able to admit that you are a fallible human being who doesn't always get it right? That's how it is with me. There are points of theological clarification and fixing that need to take place for me.

I'm continuing to hear some pride coming through from you.

Oz

 

[Barrd]

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. - Matthew 23:23

You do know that these were men who saw themselves as the keepers of the law, right? The verse you quoted comes near the end of a long harangue accusing them of hypocrisy.
Justice and mercy and faithfulness are not commandments at all...they have to do with the state of our heart.

8 He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.
9 And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery." - Matthew 19:8-9

Exo 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.

But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. - Matthew 18:16

Exo 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Here are a few and believe me there are more examples...then you can also look at my signature...neither of these commands are of the 10.

I see all ten neatly summarized in these two great commandments. The Law has always been about love.

Still let me refer you to the first verse I quoted...notice what Jesus considers the weightier matters of the Law...not the 10 commandments.

These may not be "direct commands" in the 10...but they ring through each of them.

Just to clarify this for you...the summary of the Law according to Jesus; Love the Lord your God and love your neighbor as yourself are not in the 10.

Each of the 10 has to do with loving the Lord, or loving our neighbor as ourselves.

Then what Jesus considers as the weightier matters of the Law; justice, mercy, and faithfulness are not direct commandments in the 10 either.

Is there an echo in here? Yes, these are "weightier matters"...they go straight to the heart of the Law.

Let me clarify one thing for you. I have not and will not ever teach you to disobey any of God's commands. What I do teach is we are not bound to the Law as Christians.

I would answer that we are bound to the One Who gave us the Law, and Who plainly says "If you love Me, keep My commandments". And I would ask you, please, to tell me which of the Ten may be broken with impunity?