What is this thing called "sin"?

[justaname]

Barrd,

But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. - Matthew 18:16

"A single witness shall not suffice against a person for any crime or for any wrong in connection with any offense that he has committed. Only on the evidence of two witnesses or of three witnesses shall a charge be established. - Deuteronomy 19:15

This is the mitzvot Jesus is referring to...

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. - Matthew 23:23

"You shall tithe all the yield of your seed that comes from the field year by year. - Deuteronomy 14:22

"These you have ought to have done without neglecting the others"

From Deut Jesus is teaching another mitzvot.

He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God? - Micah 6:8

And here Jesus is teaching from the prophets related to the Matthew text.

He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. - Matthew 19:8

And again the mitzvot.
1 "When a man takes a wife and marries her, if then she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, and she departs out of his house,
2 and if she goes and becomes another man's wife,
3 and the latter man hates her and writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, or if the latter man dies, who took her to be his wife,
4 then her former husband, who sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after she has been defiled, for that is an abomination before the LORD. And you shall not bring sin upon the land that the LORD your God is giving you for an inheritance. - Deuteronomy 24:1-4

What part about I do not teach to disobey God do you not understand?

And the idea of love being through the 10 commandments only strengthens my position and weakens yours. The fact remains the two greatest commandments are not in the 10 Commandments.

 

[Barrd]

But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. - Matthew 18:16

"A single witness shall not suffice against a person for any crime or for any wrong in connection with any offense that he has committed. Only on the evidence of two witnesses or of three witnesses shall a charge be established. - Deuteronomy 19:15

This is the mitzvot Jesus is referring to...

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. - Matthew 23:23

"You shall tithe all the yield of your seed that comes from the field year by year. - Deuteronomy 14:22

"These you have ought to have done without neglecting the others"

From Deut Jesus is teaching another mitzvot.

He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God? - Micah 6:8

And here Jesus is teaching from the prophets related to the Matthew text.


What part about I do not teach to disobey God do you not understand?

First of all, I will repeat to all and sundry that I did not come into this forum looking for an instructor, nor did I come here to instruct anyone.
I came here to discuss my faith with like minded Christians, and to learn a bit about how other Christians think about their faith, as well.

What I have discovered since I've been here is that a great many of the members of this board do see themselves as "instructors", who seem to think that the only way to God is through them. Every time I make a comment, it seems as if there will be at least one person in that thread who is only too willing to tell me why I am wrong, and "instruct" me as to the "truth".

To tell you the truth, I am a surprised and a bit shocked at some of the behavior I've seen here in this regard...not only toward me, but toward others.

Ahhh, well....you can only do the best you can with what you've got, where you're at, I guess.

You have taught me something this evening, I'll give you that....but you have not changed my mind. I still do not believe that we have been "set free" from obedience to the Law, and I am still quite sure that the 10 have never been, nor ever could be "done away". Can you even imagine living in a town where there was no law against stealing, or adultery? If that isn't enough to send shivers up your spine, how about a town where there is no law against murder? If you think about it for half a second, you will very quickly realize that we need...we MUST HAVE...these laws, or we will not survive as a species.

Once again, I ask you....which of the 10 may we, as Christians, ignore with impunity?

 

[justaname]

Perhaps you have forgotten this perspective. Jesus was a Hebrew under the Law. As a rabbi there was not one mitzvot He broke. He taught all his fellow Hebrews to do the same. Remember He said unless your righteousness exceeds the scribe and the Pharisee...they attempted to keep the whole of the Law not just the ten. Jesus taught and kept the whole of the Law and exalted it by teaching the Spirit of the Law rather than the letter.

Without question Jesus taught all the commandments of God. Why would you argue He did anything different?

From a personal note: In any forum setting whatever you post there will always be someone wanting to "correct" you. I love you in Christ sister. Your posts are welcome and desired!

 

[Barrd]

Perhaps you have forgotten this perspective. Jesus was a Hebrew under the Law. As a rabbi there was not one mitzvot He broke. He taught all his fellow Hebrews to do the same. Remember He said unless your righteousness exceeds the scribe and the Pharisee...they attempted to keep the whole of the Law not just the ten. Jesus taught and kept the whole of the Law and exalted it by teaching the Spirit of the Law rather than the letter.

Without question Jesus taught all the commandments of God. Why would you argue He did anything different?

From a personal note: In any forum setting whatever you post there will always be someone wanting to "correct" you. I love you in Christ sister. Your posts are welcome and desired!

Actually, Justaname, you have done a terrific job of reminding me of this perspective. Of course, I knew this intellectually...after all, the New Covenant was not promised to Gentiles....like me....but to the House of Israel. I do not claim Abraham as my father...but I do claim to be of the circumcision.
Yes, of course, He kept the entire law...all 613 mitzvots.

Now, how is our righteousness to exceed the righteousness of the scribes and pharisees? Surely you are not suggesting that Jesus taught that we ought to keep all 613?

Obviously, we have no more need of any sacrifice, nor do we need a priesthood. All the same, we must never forget that Christianity is nothing more...and certainly nothing less!!!!...than the fulfillment of God's promise to Israel.

So....thank you for the wake up call, Justaname.

But you still have not answered my question.
As "good Christians" (surely you and I are both "good Christians")...which of the 10 may we break with impunity? I am quite anxious to know your answer...

 

[justaname]

Actually, Justaname, you have done a terrific job of reminding me of this perspective. Of course, I knew this intellectually...after all, the New Covenant was not promised to Gentiles....like me....but to the House of Israel. I do not claim Abraham as my father...but I do claim to be of the circumcision.
Yes, of course, He kept the entire law...all 613 mitzvots.

Now, how is our righteousness to exceed the righteousness of the scribes and pharisees? Surely you are not suggesting that Jesus taught that we ought to keep all 613?

Obviously, we have no more need of any sacrifice, nor do we need a priesthood. All the same, we must never forget that Christianity is nothing more...and certainly nothing less!!!!...than the fulfillment of God's promise to Israel.

So....thank you for the wake up call, Justaname.

But you still have not answered my question.
As "good Christians" (surely you and I are both "good Christians")...which of the 10 may we break with impunity? I am quite anxious to know your answer...

I think you meant to say the Old Covenant was not promised to Gentiles...

Our righteousness exceeds the scribe and Pharisee because it is Christ's imputed righteousness. Also we are being sanctified in the Spirit our hearts and minds being marinated with God's Holy Law, love.

This may be something difficult for you to agree with, yet Jesus did teach to keep all 613 mitzvot because His teaching was directed to the Hebrews. He was surrounded by Hebrews, His disciples. He preached to the Hebrews in the temple and synagogues. We are modern Christians reading back into the life of Christ. His teachings were not directed at us, rather to those He was with at the time. The New Covenant was instituted at the time His death and resurrection. It was at Pentecost when the church was formally instituted (although this too is debated). Yet let me stress, all of the principles of Christianity are founded in Him. Nothing that He taught is to be taken lightly or dismissed. We as Christians look to the teachings of Christ and the Apostles to gain our insight.

Now to answer this question...we can break none of The Laws because we are not under the 10 commandments, it is an impossibility to break any of them. But if we murder we sin against God, in fact if we maintain hatered against someone in our heart we are guilty of the same.

 

[Barrd]

I think you meant to say the Old Covenant was not promised to Gentiles...

No, I meant exactly what I did say.

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

You do know that the Lord took the Kingdom from the Jews, yes?

Luk 20:9 Then began he to speak to the people this parable; A certain man planted a vineyard, and let it forth to husbandmen, and went into a far country for a long time.
Luk 20:10 And at the season he sent a servant to the husbandmen, that they should give him of the fruit of the vineyard: but the husbandmen beat him, and sent him away empty.
Luk 20:11 And again he sent another servant: and they beat him also, and entreated him shamefully, and sent him away empty.
Luk 20:12 And again he sent a third: and they wounded him also, and cast him out.
Luk 20:13 Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him.
Luk 20:14 But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.
Luk 20:15 So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them?
Luk 20:16 He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid.

Our righteousness exceeds the scribe and Pharisee because it is Christ's imputed righteousness. Also we are being sanctified in the Spirit our hearts and minds being marinated with God's Holy Law, love.

Here, at least, we find ourselves in agreement.

This may be something difficult for you to agree with, yet Jesus did teach to keep all 613 mitzvot because His teaching was directed to the Hebrews. He was surrounded by Hebrews, His disciples. He preached to the Hebrews in the temple and synagogues. We are modern Christians reading back into the life of Christ. His teachings were not directed at us, rather to those He was with at the time. The New Covenant was instituted at the time His death and resurrection. It was at Pentecost when the church was formally instituted (although this too is debated). Yet let me stress, all of the principles of Christianity are founded in Him. Nothing that He taught is to be taken lightly or dismissed. We as Christians look to the teachings of Christ and the Apostles to gain our insight.

Hmm. I am quite sure that there were several gentiles among Jesus' disciples and friends. Philip springs immediately to mind. Some think he was Macedonian...I've forgotten where I read that...while others think he was named after some ruler. We do know for sure that there were "proselytes" from all over the known world, who gathered in Jerusalem for the feast of the Pentecost. In this kind of a setting, how likely is it that crowds of people...as many as 5000 at any given time...would gather to hear and see Jesus, and they would be pure Hebrew? Not very likely, I think.

Now to answer this question...we can break none of The Laws because we are not under the 10 commandments, it is an impossibility to break any of them. But if we murder we sin against God, in fact if we maintain hatered against someone in our heart we are guilty of the same.

If we put any other god before our God, we sin against God.
If we make or worship idols, we sin against our God.
if we blaspheme the Name of God, we sin against our God.
I know the Sabbath is hotly debated, but I'm going to go out on a limb here, and maintain that if we profane anything that God has sanctified, we sin against our God.
If we do not honor the parents who raised us, we sin against our God.
If we steal, or lie, or commit adultery, or murder, we sin against our God.
If we drool over something that belongs to someone else...like that new car the neighbor just bought, with its heated seats, and it's built in DVD player to keep the kids happy...we sin against God.

You have made some very good points, Justaname, and I see where you are coming from.
But I can not and will not believe that the 10 no longer apply. Breaking them is still sin, and always will be sin.

Maybe this is just too simple a concept. These laws are basic. They are the framework everything else is built on.
Perhaps they do not seem necessary to "good Christians" like you and me...I mean, I just don't see either one of us as rabid murderers, do you?...but they are very necessary to the human race. They are what separates us from the animal kingdom. Without them, we would not survive for very long as a species.

 

[mjrhealth]

Maybe this is just too simple a concept. These laws are basic. They are the framework everything else is built on.
Perhaps they do not seem necessary to "good Christians" like you and me...I mean, I just don't see either one of us as rabid murderers, do you?...but they are very necessary to the human race. They are what separates us from the animal kingdom. Without them, we would not survive for very long as a species.

Actuially we have a spirit given by God, no mention of animals having spirits, we also have teh Holy Ghost and most importanly we have love, which animals do not have.

 

[H. Richard]

Actuially we have a spirit given by God, no mention of animals having spirits, we also have teh Holy Ghost and most importanly we have love, which animals do not have.

I enjoy reading your replies. The truth is that unless the Holy Spirit guides a person, that person will never see and understand what is written in God's word.

Case in point:

Luke 18:31-34
31 Then He took the twelve aside and said to them, "Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of Man will be accomplished.
32 For He will be delivered to the Gentiles and will be mocked and insulted and spit upon.
33 They will scourge Him and kill Him. And the third day He will rise again."
34 But they understood none of these things; this saying was hidden from them, and they did not know the things which were spoken.
NKJV

Keep up the good work for the truth.

 

[StanJ]

Stan,

When you bring in how we participated on those forums and how we participate here you have engaged in guilt by association logical fallacy. That's a fact. Please examine the nature of the guilt by association fallacy (in that link) to note what you do.

You seem to be promoting the view that you are the one who is right and others are wrong. Can you get to the point that you also are able to admit that you are a fallible human being who doesn't always get it right? That's how it is with me. There are points of theological clarification and fixing that need to take place for me.

I'm continuing to hear some pride coming through from you.

Oz

What exactly makes you think YOU are right in accusing me of such, especially when I tell you I did not? Do you believe I'm lying? I'm telling you to look at the log in your own eye and let the mods do their job, or would you like me to start criticizing your style? None of us are perfect in our emotions Oz, and that includes YOU.

 

[StanJ]

....which of the 10 may we, as Christians, ignore with impunity?

ALL of them, as we are NOT under the laws of the OT/OC.

Whatever is NOT of faith, is sin.

 

[heretoeternity]

As Paul said in Romans "do we make void the law through faith? God forbid. We ESTABLISH the law"

 

[mjrhealth]

...which of the 10 may we, as Christians, ignore with impunity?

I guess Barrd you have no comprehension of Love. If you need the law to not sin than just as teh bible says it was made for you, you know teh bit, should I repeat it. Those who are in Christ have love, Love does no evil it needs no laws. So simply if you insist on teh law, than how can you be in Chirst , Christ is Love, God is Love, Jesus asked us to love. If you have the law and no love it is worthless. Jesus died so the Jews would no longer be slaves to the law, yet here you are undoing all His good work by putting yourself in bondage to them.

Would you willfully murder without the law, covert your neighbours goods, steal etc etc. Why are you heart so set on sin when it is supposed to be in Love with Christ. Who is your husband to whom are you married , teh Law or Christ. Whose wedding are you going to go to. You cant have your feet in both camps, it is either the law or Grace, death or life, Choose wisely.

 

[Barrd]

I guess Barrd you have no comprehension of Love. If you need the law to not sin than just as teh bible says it was made for you, you know teh bit, should I repeat it. Those who are in Christ have love, Love does no evil it needs no laws. So simply if you insist on teh law, than how can you be in Chirst , Christ is Love, God is Love, Jesus asked us to love. If you have the law and no love it is worthless. Jesus died so the Jews would no longer be slaves to the law, yet here you are undoing all His good work by putting yourself in bondage to them.

Would you willfully murder without the law, covert your neighbours goods, steal etc etc. Why are you heart so set on sin when it is supposed to be in Love with Christ. Who is your husband to whom are you married , teh Law or Christ. Whose wedding are you going to go to. You cant have your feet in both camps, it is either the law or Grace, death or life, Choose wisely.

One reason the law was given was so that we should recognize sin.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Again, I say, grace is given because of sin. If, as some insist, there is no more law, then there is no more sin. If there is no more sin, there is no more need of grace.

I don't see it as "if grace, no law, if law, no grace"...

Would I "willfully" sin? That is what I would call a "loaded question". Tell me, Mj...do you sin?
Be hones, now....

 

[StanJ]

Would I "willfully" sin? That is what I would call a "loaded question". Tell me, Mj...do you sin?
Be hones, now....

Everybody "willfully sins", so I'm not sure why you view this as a loaded question? I willfully sin ALL the time. Under the NC, we CANNOT ignorantly sin.

 

[Barrd]

Everybody "willfully sins", so I'm not sure why you view this as a loaded question? I willfully sin ALL the time. Under the NC, we CANNOT ignorantly sin.

In other words, you've thought it through, and decided that the end...you satisfying your flesh...was worth the means...you breaking God's Law.

Hmmm....

Good luck with that , old man!

 

[FHII]

Just wondering.... what would be an example of unwillfully sinning?

 

[Barrd]

Just wondering.... what would be an example of unwillfully sinning?

LOL...

Okay...wife, who has been putting on a bit of weight lately, says to husband

"Honey, do these jeans make me look fat?"

Husband, who knows what's good for him, says

"Of course not, Babe...you are as beautiful as the day I married you."

He wasn't being exactly honest, even though in his eyes, she is still as beautiful as when they married. Did he sin? Technically, he did tell an untruth...she does look fat in those tight jeans. Was it willful? Tough call...and boy, am I glad I don't have to make it!

Sometimes, I suspect, we don't really think it through till after the fact. We've done the deed, whatever it was, without giving any thought to whether or not we might be sinning...and sometimes, yes, I we do sin, without thinking. Willful? Again, not me that has to make that call...

Whew!

 

[StanJ]

In other words, you've thought it through, and decided that the end...you satisfying your flesh...was worth the means...you breaking God's Law.

My post doesn't need paraphrasing, it is simply stated. Will doesn't need much thought, and thought doesn't need a whole lot of time to execute, unless you are a sloth, but they don't really think now do they?
God's laws are written on our hearts and minds, we already KNOW them, so yes it doesn't take much thought, but it is willfully done when we sin.

 

[StanJ]

LOL...

Okay...wife, who has been putting on a bit of weight lately, says to husband

"Honey, do these jeans make me look fat?"

Husband, who knows what's good for him, says

"Of course not, Babe...you are as beautiful as the day I married you."

He wasn't being exactly honest, even though in his eyes, she is still as beautiful as when they married. Did he sin? Technically, he did tell an untruth...she does look fat in those tight jeans. Was it willful? Tough call...and boy, am I glad I don't have to make it!

Sometimes, I suspect, we don't really think it through till after the fact. We've done the deed, whatever it was, without giving any thought to whether or not we might be sinning...and sometimes, yes, I we do sin, without thinking. Willful? Again, not me that has to make that call...

Whew!

Still willfully done, even if it's out of desire to avoid a question from a wife who obviously did NOT think about ambushing her loving husband.

 

[Barrd]

Still willfully done, even if it's out of desire to avoid a question from a wife who obviously did NOT think about ambushing her loving husband.

And if the husband asks the wife if she likes his new power tie, should she tell him it is the ugliest thing she's ever seen him wear, even if his Mom gave it to him for Christmas?

Touchy....

What is it worth, d'ya think, to keep the peace between these two lovers?



EDIT:

Whoops! I'm sorry, Stan, I wasn't thinking.
Let me address my question to the married men who might be reading this. Anyone?