What is Works Theology

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goldy

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We are saved by Grace alone our works are our clothes in the millieum they are not required to be saved, but being a new person when we are saved makes one desire to do good works lest we be found naked. Works saves no one. Grace saves
And how is that grace manifested in your life?
 

goldy

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I'm not going to waste my time on foolish questions...that question is overused (except for newcomers) The question is for "They'll know we are Christians by our love" What kind of love?
So how is grace manifested in your life?
 

goldy

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On the contrary... that's exactly what He gave us.
Galatians 3:1-3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
It is finished my friend. Keeping the law is unprofitable concerning salvation. Jesus kept the law for us, and died for all sin, every sin.
So, how is God's grace manifested in your life?
 

treeoflife

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So, how is God's grace manifested in your life?
Answering this would be pointless. You would be testing me rather than God's Word. Besides, I could make stuff up... you don't know.Lets stick to God's Word. By His Word, we are saved by His work alone... otherwise, Christ has died in vain. Christ either died for our sins and raised us from the dead or He did not.I do not frustrate the Gospel of grace.
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goldy

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Answering this would be pointless. You would be testing me rather than God's Word. Besides, I could make stuff up... you don't know.Lets stick to God's Word. By His Word, we are saved by His work alone... otherwise, Christ has died in vain. Christ either died for our sins and raised us from the dead or He did not.I do not frustrate the Gospel of grace.
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Easy there big guy....All I'm doing is asking a question. I want to know how we are justified in God's grace. As far as being saved by grace, I agree with you 100%. If Christ didn't die on that cross, there's nothing I could do to get to Heaven. I think we definitely have common ground there. I'm wanting to know your opinion on how we are justified in His grace. To put it another way: God redeemed all mankind by His death on the cross, right? But now everyone is saved. What is the difference between the redeemed and SAVED and the redeemed and UNSAVED?
 

treeoflife

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Easy there big guy....All I'm doing is asking a question. I want to know how we are justified in God's grace. As far as being saved by grace, I agree with you 100%. If Christ didn't die on that cross, there's nothing I could do to get to Heaven. I think we definitely have common ground there. I'm wanting to know your opinion on how we are justified in His grace. To put it another way: God redeemed all mankind by His death on the cross, right? But now everyone is saved. What is the difference between the redeemed and SAVED and the redeemed and UNSAVED?
Well, given the topic of this thread... it might be best to start a new topic on this question so that nobody gets confused into thinking anyone else is justifying salvation with works, IMO.Edit: I do want to say that I think your question asking how God's grace is manifest in our lives is a good one... and I definitely think it is worth giving attention to. We shouldn't grow weary in doing good works... and if we have, perhaps we can evaluate just how God is or isn't being expressed in our life. But, as you may have noticed, I don't think anything frustrates me more than someone justifying their salvation or someone else's salvation with works. I interpreted it that that is what you were about to do, and so I reacted. I'm sorry for that if that was not your intent.
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Letsgofishing

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Maybe I can make myself clearer
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YOU CAN'T GET TO HEAVEN THROUGH WORKSBut can a rampant Serial Killer who never seeks to repent every truly be a christian. No he has not asked God his forgiveness, and he has not accepted Gods forgiveness, he still lives a sinful life. I can believe in Television, it doesn't mean I have to use it.Same with god, believing in his death won't do anything. You have to accept him as your salvation and the way to accept him is to repent.
 

treeoflife

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Maybe I can make myself clearer
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YOU CAN'T GET TO HEAVEN THROUGH WORKSBut can a rampant Serial Killer who never seeks to repent every truly be a christian. No he has not asked God his forgiveness, and he has not accepted Gods forgiveness, he still lives a sinful life. I can believe in Television, it doesn't mean I have to use it.Same with god, believing in his death won't do anything. You have to accept him as your salvation and the way to accept him is to repent.
I understand what you're saying, I do, and I'm not disagreeing. How could they be Christian, indeed?But, I feel it is unwise to make generalized off-the-cuff statements like that with such finality. No doubt, I would seriously be doubting the legitimacy of ones salvation, but nevertheless, it is a gift of God not by works lest any man boast. Reason being, only God can judge the heart. We can at best, judge the actions, and think we have a glimps into the heart. But, we see though a glass darkly...We know what one must do to be saved... believe that Christ has done the work for them. I am looking forward to the day when all of those saved Christians who, thereafter, like the foolish Galatians were trying to perfect themselves in the flesh... are shown by Christ that all their works did nothing for their salvation, and it was grace alone (I know you believe this, I am only reiterating).
 

thisistheendtimes

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The traditional teachings have confused the meanings of many words and concepts/ideas. The word "grace" refers to The LORD'S gracious way of giving (it's an inaccurate/unclear statement to say that grace can be "manifested" by US).Being reasonable (so as not to over-extend ourselves...burn out, self righteous martyrdom, and for the preservation of humility), the individual might sometimes choose not to be so gracious in the giving of their own time (at times, WE can be gracious ALSO, but God's graciousness is what HE did).OUR "works" should be simply (humbly) "believing in" the sufficiency of the gracious gifts/works (there are three of them) of God (John 6:28 and 29) and REST IN THE LORD ("ABBA FATHER", not 'Master' that makes us "work", Romans 8:15, Galatians 4:6). It is completely our own choice to graciously offer our assistance to others (IF we will not be neglecting our responsibilities at home,...marriage and our children are our first ministry), but true worshipers cannot/will not claim/commandeer The Lord's grace as our own efforts.The Lord's gracious giving is HIS, we didn't give the gifts of...1) creation.2) salvation.3) holiness/GODLY teaching Mankind (the 6th day creation) has always chosen to replace the 3 gifts that were given to all humanity with it's own teachings (666) and had the self imposed strong delusion because of the doctrines/babylon of the heart (Ezekiel 14:4-8, 2 Thessalonians 2:10).We HAVE already been ("were", 1 Corinthians 6:11) justified IN CHRIST (Galatians 2:16 and 17) by His GIFT (even if it were possible to REPAY that, we should not make the effort to, it would nullify His grace).The Lord is the one and only foundation for our salvation AND eternal life (all flesh has salvation AVAILABLE to them, Luke 3:6), if we try to establish another foundation with "works", repentance in Christ becomes IMPOSSIBLE (Hebrews 6:4). The Lord's judgement is always just. No matter what our righteousness/love, at the final judgement, The Lord will not be unjust and overlook this apostasy of spurning His graciousness (Hebrews chapter 6). Recruitment posters for the U.S. Marines used to say "The Marines build mind, body, and SPIRIT" (a fighting spirit). A hardened sports fan, chess fan, etc. will have a spirit of competition. Our behavior (AND attitudes) must be Godlike (Godly "holy"). God's spirit (character/attitudes) is [so intense, it is...] LIVING. If we let God's spirit live in our heart AND MIND (Romans 12:2), His "eternal spirit" will "purify" our CONSCIENCE (Hebrews 9:14) and govern our behavior/attitudes so that we become truly righteous (not self righteous) in daily life. Therefore, the Holy Spirit is our GUARANTEE (2 Corinthians 1:22 and 5:5, Ephesians 1:14) of what Jesus made available to "all flesh".We must decrease (not OUR efforts/deeds, but HIS) so that He may INCREASE."walk by the SPIRIT" (Galatians 5:16 and 25).All verses are from the RSV.
 

Craig19

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Treeoflife how can you say you can not wait for the day when God shows those Christians they are wrong it sounds like your waiting for revenge. Personally I am very sad my greatest wish is that every person that ever lived could go to heaven I do not care what they have done. Unfortunatly I know they can only go to heaven if they learn to believe in Jesus. I just feel your statement shows why a lot of those people will never even listen to you. You are saying I am right they are wrong and I can not wait for them to go to hell. How can you want that on any person?? Just show them your love and pray that God shows them the truth because believe me He will and when He does they will remember you and ask for your help, but if you keep telling them they are wrong they are going start resenting you.Maybe I misunderstood your statement if so I am sorry, but if I did not please rethink what you are saying.
 

thisistheendtimes

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Most of Christianity needs a verse/passage to FORCE them to do the right thing, and a verse/passage to force them to think the right way (attitude) because LOVE is such a strange idea/concept to humanity (keep in mind,...God is LOVE, not faith). A person can have faith in a lot of things. I have faith in the laws of physics, but I don't LOVE them. Faith in God's abilities (power/omnipotence) is NOT a manifestation of His SPIRIT (GOD IS LOVE). There are many things that we READ in the TEXT (scripture), but God is not "LAW", nor is God ten "Commandments", nor is God "ordinances ("COMMANDS" in the New Testament), neither is God pleased by our compliance to protocol (avoiding this and that 'sin'/imperfection yields nothing of the heart).GOD IS LOVE (and He would like/prefer/wants/wishes/desires that we would be the same (to Him and "our neighbor"/fellow human being), but history has shown that that very few people on this earth ACTUALLY CARE about His likes and dislikes...EXAMPLE...God did allow Moses to offer certificates of divorce (it's practical for battered wives, etc.), but He also IMMEDIATELY said (in no uncertain terms) "I HATE divorce". The people who CARE about His likes and dislikes are GODLY (and will benefit from choosing His son's salvation and the indwelling of His spirit), others who never learn to CARE about God's likes/dislikes, AND never learn to feel sorrow when their neighbors are scorned/shamed or suffer any kind of injustice, simply "worship with their lips". God is LOVE (the "GREATEST of these", 1 Corinthians 13:13).Our goodness (good behavior) should not be by COMPULSION (following 'orders'/TEXT), but of our own freewill CONSCIENCE, Philemon verse 14. The KNOWLEDGE of good and evil (CONSCIENCE,...the tree that Adam ate of, we should learn how to use that knowledge of good and evil, Hebrews 5:14) is not TEXT knowledge, it should become a person's peaceful/loving COUNTENANCE. This is a "more excellent way" of devotion, 1 Corinthians 12:31). People who are satisfied with simply CALLING themselves "christians" will never recieve "living" water baptism (John 7:38) nor will they recieve "the better things that belong to salvation" (Hebrews 6:9) or know "the depths of God" (1 Corinthians 2:10). They rather conveniently INTERPRET scripture to mean what they want (instead of UNDERSTAND) and play 'master scholar' with "parables" (Matthew 13:13 and 19, Mark 4:12). That is why they will continue to have the STRONG delusion (that existed all throughout history) unless they choose the "MORE EXCELLENT WAY" and also learn to have a passion for OBJECTIVE truth ("and so be saved", 2 Thessalonians 2:10,...speaking in no uncertain terms in order to communicate TRUTH, etc.). They continue to chase after the worship habits of ancient cultures and use their terminology/nomenclature/scriptures and feasts/methods (Bereans, "Elohim" and such). Everything BEFORE the spirit was given (John 7:39) is not a valid means of worship/devotion for the NEW Testament [GODLY] Christian (except the Father's true identity, FOREVER "I am who I am", Exodus 3:14 (the Father told His true/forever name so we can be like Him with our own individuality/identity and truly relate to Him).(no "self abasement", Colossians 2:18 and 23). Intellectuals ("master scholars") glorify THEMSELVES, not GOD.God is LOVE. 1 Corinthians 13 is the LOVE chapter of the bible, yet "christianity" has always chosen to effectively IGNORE it (it should be our hallmark/manual/example of devotion). Whenever asked about that chapter, pastors will 'brush ut off' saying that it is an "example of how things will be in the future city of God", NOT SO, it is how things should be here on earth NOW in the heart AND MIND of the TRUE worshipper (John 4:23) who worship in SPIRIT and TRUTH.MOST modern bible versions are worldly/carnal (they were made to be politially correct, not GODLY correct), and traditional "christian" teachings are APOSTATE.TRUE Christianity is a LOVE, not a "faith".All verses are from the Revised Standard Version (no version is COMPLETELY discrepancy free,...translation inequalities from the Greek). The RSV is the most understandable and accurate.
 

treeoflife

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Treeoflife how can you say you can not wait for the day when God shows those Christians they are wrong it sounds like your waiting for revenge. Personally I am very sad my greatest wish is that every person that ever lived could go to heaven I do not care what they have done. Unfortunatly I know they can only go to heaven if they learn to believe in Jesus. I just feel your statement shows why a lot of those people will never even listen to you. You are saying I am right they are wrong and I can not wait for them to go to hell. How can you want that on any person?? Just show them your love and pray that God shows them the truth because believe me He will and when He does they will remember you and ask for your help, but if you keep telling them they are wrong they are going start resenting you.Maybe I misunderstood your statement if so I am sorry, but if I did not please rethink what you are saying.
You misinturpreted greatly. I never said anyone was going to hell... I'll let God be the judge of that. We are saved by grace alone, through Christ's work. I'm simply waiting for His glory and His mercy to be revealed. That is what I meant. I'm waiting for the record to be set straight... for both the elect, and the unsaved. Who is the elect and who is the unsaved? I will let the Lord seperate them in the end. I do not worry about these things. I'm simply stating, I am looking forward to that day. The thought that you would think I would be happy to see someone go to hell is offensive and off-base.I suspsect you were referring to this:

I am looking forward to the day when all of those saved Christians who, thereafter, like the foolish Galatians were trying to perfect themselves in the flesh... are shown by Christ that all their works did nothing for their salvation, and it was grace alone (I know you believe this, I am only reiterating).
I said saved Christians... are shown their works... did nothing for their salvation. They have salvation, and they are saved. We all are saved by God's Grace. I made no implication whatsoever that a person was going to hell. Perhaps you should search within your own heart as to why you came to this conclusion based on what I said.Proverbs 11:23 The godly can look forward to a reward,while the wicked can expect only judgment. 1 Thessalonians 1:8-10And now the word of the Lord is ringing out from you to people everywhere, even beyond Macedonia and Achaia, for wherever we go we find people telling us about your faith in God. We don’t need to tell them about it, for they keep talking about the wonderful welcome you gave us and how you turned away from idols to serve the living and true God. And they speak of how you are looking forward to the coming of God’s Son from heaven—Jesus, whom God raised from the dead. He is the one who has rescued us from the terrors of the coming judgment.I look forward to it. That is what I was saying and that's what I am saying.
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goldy

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So I'll ask this to anyone who subscribes to the Sola Fida (Justification by faith alone) doctrine. I already asked this once but will do so again: Christ redeemed ALL mankind on the cross, yet not all mankind is saved. So my question is, what is the difference between the redeemed and SAVED and the redeemed and UNSAVED? Is it not something that we have to DO?Remember Christ said, "I am the vine and you are the branches". The vine is Jesus (obviously) and the branches are Christians. He then goes on to say that if the branches don't produce fruit will wither away, cut off, and thrown in the fire to be burned. What is Christ really saying here? We have to produce fruit to be saved. Pruducing fruit isn't just making an altar call on June 16, 1998 and then sitting back and saying, "That's it!! I got my front row seat in Heaven!!" As Christians, we are to pick up our crosses DAILY. The bible also says that faith without works is DEAD. Justification by faith alone? I strongly disagree.
 

treeoflife

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Ephesians 2:8-9For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.That's fine, by all means... go ahead and work for your salvation. Try and earn it. Try and do enough good deeds so that God will let you into heaven. I and everyone else who understands it is not by works will trust soley in Christ's work alone. We will see who comes out ahead in the end, baring fruit. I guarantee the person who trusts soley in Christ for their salvation will produce far more REAL FRUIT than the person who is justifying themselves with their works. I say this, but I hope that you would rather trust Christ alone for your salvation, and produce real fruit.How so? Because such a person, who trusts in their own works for salvation, does not abide in Christ... they abide in themselves... in their own works.Wouldn't it be ironic for you if you were to discover that it was *this very belief* of *justification by faith* that is *the only way a person can truly abide* in the vine? Thus it is this way alone, trusting Christ alone (abiding in Him) for our justification (and not our own works) that you can truly produce real fruit. I would argue that until you trust Christ alone for HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS ALONE, you will never produce the fruit He is speaking of. Why? Because you cannot be abiding in Him when you are abiding in yourself (working for your salvation). The more we trust in our own works, the less fruit we will produce... ironic.It is by grace alone we are saved. Abide in Him, abide in the vine, and you will produce fruit. If you do not abide in Him, you will not produce fruit. Amen!Do not abide in your own works... rather, abide in the vine... abide in Christ.Know God's Word, and obey. Blessings.
 

goldy

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Ephesians 2:8-9For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.That's fine, by all means... go ahead and work for your salvation. Try and earn it. Try and do enough good deeds so that God will let you into heaven. I and everyone else who understands it is not by works will trust soley in Christ's work alone. We will see who comes out ahead in the end, baring fruit. I guarantee the person who trusts soley in Christ for their salvation will produce far more REAL FRUIT than the person who is justifying themselves with their works. I say this, but I hope that you would rather trust Christ alone for your salvation, and produce real fruit.How so? Because such a person, who trusts in their own works for salvation, does not abide in Christ... they abide in themselves... in their own works.Wouldn't it be ironic for you if you were to discover that it was *this very belief* of *justification by faith* that is *the only way a person can truly abide* in the vine? Thus it is this way alone, trusting Christ alone (abiding in Him) for our justification (and not our own works) that you can truly produce real fruit. I would argue that until you trust Christ alone for HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS ALONE, you will never produce the fruit He is speaking of. Why? Because you cannot be abiding in Him when you are abiding in yourself (working for your salvation). The more we trust in our own works, the less fruit we will produce... ironic.It is by grace alone we are saved. Abide in Him, abide in the vine, and you will produce fruit. If you do not abide in Him, you will not produce fruit. Amen!Do not abide in your own works... rather, abide in the vine... abide in Christ.Know God's Word, and obey. Blessings.
I still think you and I are talking past each other. To be clear: I don't believe that we are justified by faith ALONE. I also don't believe that we are justified by works ALONE. It's not an either/or condition. It's a BOTH/AND condition. I get the feeling that you still believe that I'm saying that we can "work" our way into Heaven. I don't believe that. But there is nowhere, NOWHERE, in the Bible that says we are justified by our faith ALONE (emphasis on ALONE). Now, according to popular Protestant logic, if we accept Christ into our heart, then we will just naturally do good works. I agree with that to an extent. But your logic would also be, "but I don't have to". According to your logic, you don't even have to love others. If we just need faith in Christ to get into Heaven, why would we need to love anybody? That's the message I feel like I'm getting from the sola fida crowd. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
 

treeoflife

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Romans 5:19-21For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Paul will go on to say ask, "Should be conitune to sin then, that grace may abound? God forbid". Even though GRACE DOES ABOUND Paul says that we should not continue to sin. He makes no teaching, however, that we must work to earn salvation. He tells us that when sin abounds, grace always abound more... and encourages us not to sin, in spite of this fact, even though *not sinning* has no effect that grace will abound! Praise the Lord!True, such unmerited favor that we are given in Christ is confounding. A person *could* say "well then... sin not? But I don't have to sin not... because grace abounds." Fact is, they are right, and grace will abound. They don't have to do anything for salvation. This makes us uneasy, and squirmish because we want to earn our salvation. We want the glory. We want to say, "look what I HAVE EARNED IN MY RIGHTEOUSNESS!" We don't think it is fair that "sinners" get in by God's grace and we, who work hard to earn our way into heaven, go in the same door. Nevertheles, we are all saved by Grace through faith. Did Christ die in vain? If He did not... then salvation cannot, at all, be by works.I do not frustrate the Gospel of GRACE.We don't make the rules, God does. He is the one, Holy, perfect, righteous, beyond compare and past our understanding, who became a man, who took on flesh, who lived among us as a man through a day to day life that would eventually bring Him to a point where He, the maker of all things, would allow us to murder Him on a cross. He died for a sinful wreckless creation... with all due respect... take it up with Him if you don't like it.We are saved by grace, through faith. Not of works, lest any man boast.
 

goldy

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Romans 5:19-21For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Paul will go on to say ask, "Should be conitune to sin then, that grace may abound? God forbid". Even though GRACE DOES ABOUND Paul says that we should not continue to sin. He makes no teaching, however, that we must work to earn salvation. He tells us that when sin abounds, grace always abound more... and encourages us not to sin, in spite of this fact, even though *not sinning* has no effect that grace will abound! Praise the Lord!True, such unmerited favor that we are given in Christ is confounding. A person *could* say "well then... sin not? But I don't have to sin not... because grace abounds." Fact is, they are right, and grace will abound. They don't have to do anything for salvation. This makes us uneasy, and squirmish because we want to earn our salvation. We want the glory. We want to say, "look what I HAVE EARNED IN MY RIGHTEOUSNESS!" We don't think it is fair that "sinners" get in by God's grace and we, who work hard to earn our way into heaven, go in the same door. Nevertheles, we are all saved by Grace through faith. Did Christ die in vain? If He did not... then salvation cannot, at all, be by works.I do not frustrate the Gospel of GRACE.We don't make the rules, God does. He is the one, Holy, perfect, righteous, beyond compare and past our understanding, who became a man, who took on flesh, who lived among us as a man through a day to day life that would eventually bring Him to a point where He, the maker of all things, would allow us to murder Him on a cross. He died for a sinful wreckless creation... with all due respect... take it up with Him if you don't like it.We are saved by grace, through faith. Not of works, lest any man boast.
We are not saved by grace, THROUGH FAITH. We are saved by grace, through faith and works. Again, how are we to prove that we are Christians? Do you just say, "Well, I have faith in Jesus Christ?" Faith without works IS DEAD. Your bible even says that. Again, I challenge you to find me one scripture verse that says we are justified by works ALONE. Personally, I don't boast about my works. I thank God for allowing me to do these things. The path to Heaven is a daily process. I have a fear of God, a healthy fear. It's compared to the fear I had of letting down my earthly father. IT's not about fire and brimstone. I'm constantly on guard against sin, and I do my best to cling to Him when I'm tempted. Too much is at stake not to.
 

treeoflife

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"We are not saved by grace, THROUGH FAITH. We are saved by grace, through faith and works"
Way to say the exact opposite of what Paul reveals to us, in God's TRUTH.Ephesians 2:8-9For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boastI understand. You want to earn your salvation--that is the truth. You want a part in your salvation... Christ does a little... you do a little... you want credit for your salvation.Parrot what you want. I'm not talking about this with you anymore. See you on the other side.
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goldy

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Way to say the exact opposite of what Paul reveals to us, in God's TRUTH.Ephesians 2:8-9For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boastI understand. You want to earn your salvation--that is the truth. You want a part in your salvation... Christ does a little... you do a little... you want credit for your salvation.Parrot what you want. I'm not talking about this with you anymore. See you on the other side.
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And thanks for misinterpreting all that I just said...Yeah, that's it. I want to EARN my salvation. I guess what I said about Christ dying on the cross to save me in my earlier posts went right over your head. So I want credit for my salvation? Please....
 

treeoflife

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And thanks for misinterpreting all that I just said...Yeah, that's it. I want to EARN my salvation. I guess what I said about Christ dying on the cross to save me in my earlier posts went right over your head. So I want credit for my salvation? Please....
Goldy,Sincerely then... Goldy... say, "I am not saved by my works." If you can't bring yourself to say it or believe it, then you are trying to earn it. No other way around it. You are trying to earn your salvation, and this means Christ has died in vain.Either believe on Him, or do not. You either are saved by works or you aren't. What portion of your salvation does Christ play? 50%? 75%? 90%? The answer is 100%. Christ is 100% responsible for our salvation.