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What is Works Theology

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by RichardBurger, May 14, 2008.

  1. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    So I'll ask this to anyone who subscribes to the Sola Fida (Justification by faith alone) doctrine. I already asked this once but will do so again: Christ redeemed ALL mankind on the cross, yet not all mankind is saved. So my question is, what is the difference between the redeemed and SAVED and the redeemed and UNSAVED? Is it not something that we have to DO?Remember Christ said, "I am the vine and you are the branches". The vine is Jesus (obviously) and the branches are Christians. He then goes on to say that if the branches don't produce fruit will wither away, cut off, and thrown in the fire to be burned. What is Christ really saying here? We have to produce fruit to be saved. Pruducing fruit isn't just making an altar call on June 16, 1998 and then sitting back and saying, "That's it!! I got my front row seat in Heaven!!" As Christians, we are to pick up our crosses DAILY. The bible also says that faith without works is DEAD. Justification by faith alone? I strongly disagree.
    It is your choice to disagree. However, those that have placed their faith, trust, confidence, and hope (all of these define faith) know they are saved. They have faith that they are saved. After all that is what faith is all about. If you need an external work to know it then you don't have faith.God really does know those that have placed their faith in Him (His work on the cross). You can shout to the heavens, if you wish that faith without works is dead, but that does not make it true for those that have faith. Our work is to place out trust is His work, not ours.1 John 5:4-21 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world — our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? NKJVThe children of God have been born of God and they have already overcome the world by faith in the work of God on the cross.Richard [​IMG]
     
  2. goldy

    goldy New Member

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    Goldy,Sincerely then... Goldy... say, "I am not saved by my works." If you can't bring yourself to say it or believe it, then you are trying to earn it. No other way around it. You are trying to earn your salvation, and this means Christ has died in vain.Either believe on Him, or do not. You either are saved by works or you aren't. What portion of your salvation does Christ play? 50%? 75%? 90%? The answer is 100%. Christ is 100% responsible for our salvation.
    Sorry, haven't been on here since last Friday to answer this challenge. For the record, I am not saved by my works ALONE. I am not saved by my faith ALONE. The only thing I'm saved by ALONE is God's grace. The topic in question was how is that grace JUSTIFIED? Is it justified by faith? Is it justified by works? If you say it's justified by faith alone, I have a serious problem with that.....and your bible does also. The bible is very clear that what we do has a very big impact on our justification as well. The bible is also very clear that our faith plays a big impact in the justification also. It't the ALONE part that I have a problem with. Nowhere in the bible does it say that we are justified by faith ALONE. Hope this makes sense. Christ didn't die in vain for me or anyone else.
     
  3. treeoflife

    treeoflife New Member

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    Sorry, haven't been on here since last Friday to answer this challenge. For the record, I am not saved by my works ALONE. I am not saved by my faith ALONE. The only thing I'm saved by ALONE is God's grace. The topic in question was how is that grace JUSTIFIED? Is it justified by faith? Is it justified by works? If you say it's justified by faith alone, I have a serious problem with that.....and your bible does also. The bible is very clear that what we do has a very big impact on our justification as well. The bible is also very clear that our faith plays a big impact in the justification also. It't the ALONE part that I have a problem with. Nowhere in the bible does it say that we are justified by faith ALONE. Hope this makes sense. Christ didn't die in vain for me or anyone else.
    I agree that faith without works is dead. I only disagree with how some apply that verse to salvation. It was never intended as such. Yes, how we live is a very clear indicator on whether or not we abide in Him. I do not believe, however, that works are an indicator of if a person is saved (since we are not saved by works). We have to understand it is by grace alone, and regardless of how we are living, Christ has done the will of God and will raise ALL that the Father gives Him on the last day. Faith without works is dead can't be applied to salvation, because salvation is not by works. You are right, in heaven we will be justified by works... but not on the matter of salvation. Right?
     
  4. winsome

    winsome New Member

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    I'm glad we can agree on this most important thing. [​IMG]It is by grace!Read this over and over... it's meaty!
    Romans 4:14-2414For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression. 16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations." He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were. 18Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, "So shall your offspring be." 19Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah's womb was also dead. 20Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness." 23The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone, 24but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.
    The reason it was accredited to Abraham as righteousness was, Paul says, because he simply believed that God was capable of doing what He had promised to do. And, it is for all who believe... we simply need to let go and believe that He is good enough to do it. It is by grace! [​IMG] For those who look to God, and seeing their own flesh is weak say, "I believe you can do it," having the faith of Abraham... we simply believe. Free ticket to heaven. Just believe God... it is finished.
    Abraham was justified because he had both faith and works.Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works. Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. (Jas 2:21-24)
     
  5. treeoflife

    treeoflife New Member

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    Abraham was justified because he had both faith and works.Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works. Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. (Jas 2:21-24)
    wrong. He was justifed by faith alone. He believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Read again, and understand.You are quoting James which has nothing to do with salvation.Our salvation is not justifed by our works. It is by faith alone that we are saved. Not of works, lest any man boast.
     
  6. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    It was said: "Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works. Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. (Jas 2:21-24)*****James was writing to the Jews (see James 1:1) but it would seem that he had his facts wrong.According to Gen 15, Abraham was accounted as righteous before God simple because he (Abraham) believed what God told him, and if you will see it, that was long before Isaac was born. Since he (Abraham) was already accounted as righteous before God before Isaac was born, how can he be accounted more righteous by offering up his son, Isaac.Paul, writing to the Gentile grace church, used the event in Gen 15 to discribe faith without works. Since Paul was the Apostle sent to the Gentiles I will lissten to him, not James.But many will refuse to see this because they believe in the "works theology."Richard
     
  7. winsome

    winsome New Member

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    wrong. He was justifed by faith alone. He believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Read again, and understand.You are quoting James which has nothing to do with salvation.Our salvation is not justifed by our works. It is by faith alone that we are saved. Not of works, lest any man boast.
    It's about the necessity for both faith and works.
     
  8. winsome

    winsome New Member

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    James was writing to the Jews (see James 1:1) but it would seem that he had his facts wrong.Richard
    Really? Inspired by the Holy Spirit James got it wrong? Scripture is in error?Could it just be that you have it wrong?
     
  9. treeoflife

    treeoflife New Member

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    It's about the necessity for both faith and works.
    If you mean for salvation... no, it's not. If it is about salvation (which it is not) then James causes a huge contridiction in other scripture, and Jesus Himself. Salvation is by faith alone.The reference you gave in James has nothing to do with salvation. It has to do with faith being proven by works. Thus, if you say you have faith, but no works... not so. Your faith should be and will be shown by works. Nevertheless, salvation is by faith alone, period. Not of works, lest any man boast.You can justify yourself all you want, and I know that's what you want to do, but if/when you get to heaven you will see it is by grace alone, through faith. God's Word is clear. It is by faith, not works. James is not about salvation. And that is all I'm going to say.We are saved by grace through faith. Not of works, lest any man boast.
     
  10. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    Really? Inspired by the Holy Spirit James got it wrong? Scripture is in error?Could it just be that you have it wrong?
    Hey! I can say that too, "Could it just be that you have it wrong?"Read the scriptures for yourself. Wasn't Abraham declared righteous before God in Gen 15, long before Isaac was born or not? If He was then I am right and you are wrong. Don't take my word for it, read the scriptures.Did James have it wrong? James was trying to justify faith with works by using an event that happened many years after Isaac was born. Since the Jews believed in faith with works his writing was to support their view. But it was wrong. But some will not be able to see this because it does not support their view.Richard [​IMG]
     
  11. treeoflife

    treeoflife New Member

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    Hey! I can say that too, "Could it just be that you have it wrong?"Read the scriptures for yourself. Wasn't Abraham declared righteous before God in Gen 15, long before Isaac was born or not? If He was then I am right and you are wrong. Don't take my word for it, read the scriptures.Did James have it wrong? James was trying to justify faith with works by using an event that happened many years after Isaac was born. Since the Jews believed in faith with works his writing was to support their view. But it was wrong. But some will not be able to see this because it does not support their view.Richard [​IMG]
    Good point. The event referenced by James, between Abraham and Isaac is following the time where he was justified by faith, and accounted to him for righteousness. In fact, when Paul refers to the even BEFORE Isaac (which is not in James), it is always to show that we are saved by faith, and not by works at all.
    Romans 4:1-9 1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. 9Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
     
  12. winsome

    winsome New Member

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    If you mean for salvation... no, it's not. If it is about salvation (which it is not) then James causes a huge contridiction in other scripture, and Jesus Himself. Salvation is by faith alone.The reference you gave in James has nothing to do with salvation. It has to do with faith being proven by works. Thus, if you say you have faith, but no works... not so. Your faith should be and will be shown by works. Nevertheless, salvation is by faith alone, period. Not of works, lest any man boast.You can justify yourself all you want, and I know that's what you want to do, but if/when you get to heaven you will see it is by grace alone, through faith. God's Word is clear. It is by faith, not works. James is not about salvation. And that is all I'm going to say.We are saved by grace through faith. Not of works, lest any man boast.
    Salvation by faith alone is not Biblical.And you have just contradicted yourself. “Thus, if you say you have faith, but no works... not so” No works – no faith – so no salvation.And that’s all I’m going to say.
     
  13. treeoflife

    treeoflife New Member

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    Salvation by faith alone is not Biblical.And you have just contradicted yourself. “Thus, if you say you have faith, but no works... not so” No works – no faith – so no salvation.And that’s all I’m going to say.
    Wrong. You are not Biblical. That's good that's all you're going to say because you teach a lie. This is the most foundational understanding we need to come to grips with, and salvation is not by works, it is by faith. For you to continue to parrot that we need works only shows the condition of your heart, and it certainly is not what the Holy Spirit confirms within us.On the contrary, works only doom a person because they trust in their works rather than in Christ.
    Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​
    This is a prime example of someone who thought that he or she was saved or could be saved by works. They point to their works and say "Look what we have done? Look Lord, look at our works!" And Jesus turns them away, becuase He NEVER KNEW THEM. Knowing Him is the only thing that saves, and once we have known Him... we are sealed.
    John 6:28-29; 39-40 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent------------------- And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    I truly do not know your heart or claim to... but all your "salvation by faith and WORKS" shows is that you are counting on your works, and not God to save you. These are those who Jesus turns away... not sinners... but those who are counting on their works to save them. They have not truly known God. That is all I am going to say.
     
  14. Learning

    Learning New Member

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    I am praying that through my faith good works will follow.
     
  15. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    I am praying that through my faith good works will follow.
    Fine, that is the way it should be. But don't make a religion out of works as some do.Richard [​IMG]
     
  16. Letsgofishing

    Letsgofishing New Member

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    Yesterday at mass the priest said the belief of salvation through faith and works. slightly different, might as well right it down" it is through faith we are saved, but does that mean that good works should be disregarded. No, we need to thank God for our salvation, and we thank him through Our Good works. You see, Faith and works go hand in hand"
     
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