What is wrong with this picture?

[Richard_oti]

So you believe God kills children?

As Job pointed out, children also died in the flood. However, there was reason for it.

Gen 7:4b and every living thing that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the ground.


As TableTalk pointed out in Deuteronomy 3, everyone was slain, inclusive of the children. Again though, there was reason. And it was "God" who ordered it so.


As Amadeus pointed out Joshua 7.

Jos 6:18 But as for you, only keep yourselves from the devoted thing, lest when ye have devoted it, ye take of the devoted thing; so would ye make the camp of Israel accursed, and trouble it.

Jos 7:10 And YHVH said unto Joshua, Get thee up; wherefore art thou thus fallen upon thy face? 11 Israel hath sinned; yea, they have even transgressed my covenant which I commanded them: yea, they have even taken of the devoted thing, and have also stolen, and dissembled also; and they have even put it among their own stuff.

<snip>

Go thru the O.T. again...
See if you could understand it a different way.
This way:
Joshua did what he did.
How do we know God told him to do what he did?
I won't say more.

So. let's attempt to change the plain and simple reading of the text, because you don't like it.
As soon as you start to do that, you may as well also rip out of your Bible and fling into the sea everything from the O.T. that refers or alludes to Jesus as well.

In essence, you are attempting to undermine the authority and authenticity of the O.T., by which you also remove and undermine the authority and authenticity of the N.T.. The N.T. can not stand without the foundation that is the O.T..

And you insinuated that I am "not of faith" in another thread. Yet, I am not the one attempting to undermine the foundation here, the foundation upon which stands the N.T.. I am not the one asking as one of the "adversary", how do we really know what "God" told him to do. I am not the one doubting the authority and authenticity of the O.T..

<snip>

Think of Noah.
Did God make such a mistake?
Did He not know man would sin?
He hated mankind so much He killed all mankind?

Maybe the "Creator" hoped his "creation" would respond in "righteousness" and "love", rather than:

Gen 6:5 And YHVH saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Gen 6:11 And the earth was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12 And God saw the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth. 13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

All flesh. And the "Nephilim" ... the "sons of God" went unto the daughters of men ...

<snip>

 

[Richard_oti]

This is good..
So explain verse 6.
How could God be sorry about something He did?
Did God make a mistake?

Genesis 6:6 va-yinakhem ; binyan Niphal 3 pers. masc. sing. 6:7 nikhamti ; binyan Niphal, 1st pers. masc. sing..

The binyan Niphal here is not what "God" is doing, but what is happening to "God". IOW: It is not "God" performing the action, but participating in it as in the undergoing or suffering the effects as in v7:

6:7d nikhamti ki `asitim : I am suffered / grieved / sorry that I made them.

IOW: "God" was grieved by what his creation had become and had done.

Further, the perpetual covenant that is the rainbow, was given as a reminder that "God" would not destroy the earth in such manner (by flood) again:

Gen 9:11 And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of the flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth. 12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations: 13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth. 14 And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud, 15 and I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.

 

[Richard_oti]

<snip>
God swept no one away.

How did such a flood occur?

Why would God make humans only to sweep them away after some generations?

<raises hand> Ahh, due to wickedness.


Deu 7:1 When YHVH thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and shall cast out many nations before thee, the Hittite, and the Girgashite, and the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; 2 and when YHVH thy God shall deliver them up before thee, and thou shalt smite them; then thou shalt utterly destroy them: thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor show mercy unto them;

Deu 9:4 Speak not thou in thy heart, after that YHVH thy God hath thrust them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness YHVH hath brought me in to possess this land; whereas for the wickedness of these nations YHVH doth drive them out from before thee. 5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thy heart, dost thou go in to possess their land; but for the wickedness of these nations YHVH thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may establish the word which YHVH sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.

Deu 20:16 But of the cities of these peoples, that YHVH thy God giveth thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth; 17 but thou shalt utterly destroy them: the Hittite, and the Amorite, the Canaanite, and the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite; as YHVH thy God hath commanded thee;

Num 21:34 And YHVH said unto Moses, Fear him not: for I have delivered him into thy hand, and all his people, and his land; and thou shalt do to him as thou didst unto Sihon king of the Amorites, who dwelt at Heshbon. 35 So they smote him, and his sons and all his people, until there was none left him remaining: and they possessed his land.

Jos 11:14 And all the spoil of these cities, and the cattle, the children of Israel took for a prey unto themselves; but every man they smote with the edge of the sword, until they had destroyed them, neither left they any that breathed. 15 As YHVH commanded Moses his servant, so did Moses command Joshua: and so did Joshua; he left nothing undone of all that YHVH commanded Moses.

1Sa 15:2 Thus saith YHVH of hosts, I have marked that which Amalek did to Israel, how he set himself against him in the way, when he came up out of Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

 

[Richard_oti]

And among those that were swept away by the flood waters, there were children.

According to one school of thought, through the nephilim, all flesh had become corrupt. When it is said that Noah was perfect in his generations, that his lineage was still pure. There are other schools of thought.

But I agree, children were swept away, or drowned in the flood as well.

 

[Richard_oti]

Unfortunately, hell does exist...

Yet even that shall shall be cast into the lake of fire. That described in Luke 16, are the places of waiting, or holding, distinct places for each, for the righteous, and for the wicked, until the time of judgment. Which can also be seen in Enoch.

 

[Job]

@Richard_oti

Well said...

 

[GodsGrace]

You're right, I haven't.

I don't require spoon feeding.

.

Ha....
How did I know?
Try it, you'll like it.

 

[Job]

Ha....
How did I know?
Try it, you'll like it.

Doesn't seem to have done you any good, so I think I'll pass.

.

 

[GodsGrace]

I would guess that you are unwilling to let me stay where I am and leave it be because you disagree. So then you open up another can of worms.

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." John 5:28-29

Only those who have received the Life which Jesus is will be there with them, either with those that have done good or those who have done evil. Without that Life there is NO resurrection at all not even a resurrection of damnation. Jesus is the Resurrection.

You insisted that I tell you what it meant so I did. Now leave it alone.

You can believe what you will.
But you will not so easily proclaim that the innocent are lost.
And the REASON you so easily could believe this is BECAUSE of your belief regarding the hereafter.
.....of which you cannot be absolutely sure.

You say that Luke 16 is a holding pen...but ONLY for those in Abraham's Bossom.
The others on the other side of the gulf are where they belong and in torment...sounds like hell, no?

When one accepts hell as a reality, he is much more careful as to his beliefs regarding the innocent.

 

[GodsGrace]

GodsGrace, I am so sorry the thread took this direction. I am not against you. I want it to be true as much as you. But even when I ask my husband, he can't give any scripture. It was a question asking for scripture on the topic. I don't enjoy that it has upset you. God is just and full of mercy and grace. I am not giving up and will continue to pray to Him on this.

We are talking eternal life, right? There is no disputing suffering here.

It's OK ViJ
I'm rather horrified, to tell you the truth.
I never thought I'd hear other Christians who love Jesus proclaim that innocent children go to hell, or that the mentally incapable go to hell.

I did post scripture, maybe you missed it.
I'll repeat some here:

Ezekiel 18:20
2 Corinthians 5:10
1 John 3:4-8
James 1:14-15
Romans 2:6-9
Romans 6:23
1 Timothy 2:4
John 3:16

If you note in the above a person is condemned for SINNING.
How does an innocent person sin? They don't even know what it is.
If we are judged by our good deeds or our evil deeds, how is an innocent judged if he CANNOT perform either good deeds or evil deeds?

Will we say then, that since they perform neither, our God will punish them with hell? Is this the God we honor and love? One who sends innocence persons to a place where He is not, or, to hell?

I serve a loving and merciful God.

 

[GodsGrace]

Perhaps with a little effort, you might come across as a little more condescending.

Perhaps it is time for a change of nym, for "Grace" is not being represented very well.

BTW: Who did Jesus select from as his disciples. Was it from the "learned" as in the Pharisees and the "yeast" thereof.

Were YOU not being very condescending in our past conversation?
But in a rather coy way---
I, OTOH, like to say what I have to say up front.

As to my name:
Irony of irony.
Sarcasm of sarcasm.

The one who is saying that the innocent are saved (me) is being told she should change her name from "grace".
The one who is saying that the innocent go to hell, is portraying himself (you) as the hero.

Very interesting indeed.

AND you end your post with A QUESTION!!
Well, why don't you ANSWER your questions every now and then since apparently I'm too dumb to?

Was Paul a learned person?
Were all the Apostles dumb persons?
Gee. Maybe we shouldn't be placing our future in their hands?
Maybe they were so dumb they can't remember WHAT Jesus said and we have it all wrong!!

BTW, You sound pretty learned yourself.
Maybe you should dumb-down a bit??

 

[GodsGrace]

Doesn't seem to have done you any good, so I think I'll pass.

.

Ig is bliss.
No further comment.

 

[GodsGrace]

As Job pointed out, children also died in the flood. However, there was reason for it.

Gen 7:4b and every living thing that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the ground.


As TableTalk pointed out in Deuteronomy 3, everyone was slain, inclusive of the children. Again though, there was reason. And it was "God" who ordered it so.


As Amadeus pointed out Joshua 7.

Jos 6:18 But as for you, only keep yourselves from the devoted thing, lest when ye have devoted it, ye take of the devoted thing; so would ye make the camp of Israel accursed, and trouble it.

Jos 7:10 And YHVH said unto Joshua, Get thee up; wherefore art thou thus fallen upon thy face? 11 Israel hath sinned; yea, they have even transgressed my covenant which I commanded them: yea, they have even taken of the devoted thing, and have also stolen, and dissembled also; and they have even put it among their own stuff.

<snip>



So. let's attempt to change the plain and simple reading of the text, because you don't like it.
As soon as you start to do that, you may as well also rip out of your Bible and fling into the sea everything from the O.T. that refers or alludes to Jesus as well.

In essence, you are attempting to undermine the authority and authenticity of the O.T., by which you also remove and undermine the authority and authenticity of the N.T.. The N.T. can not stand without the foundation that is the O.T..

And you insinuated that I am "not of faith" in another thread. Yet, I am not the one attempting to undermine the foundation here, the foundation upon which stands the N.T.. I am not the one asking as one of the "adversary", how do we really know what "God" told him to do. I am not the one doubting the authority and authenticity of the O.T..

<snip>



Maybe the "Creator" hoped his "creation" would respond in "righteousness" and "love", rather than:

Gen 6:5 And YHVH saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Gen 6:11 And the earth was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12 And God saw the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth. 13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

All flesh. And the "Nephilim" ... the "sons of God" went unto the daughters of men ...

<snip>

The creator HOPED His creation would respond in love.
HE DIDN'T KNOW???

Major flaws in your theology.
No response is necessary.

Jesus was the perfect representation of God Creator, whom you call
Yahweh. YWVH. Are you even Christian?

The God I love DOES NOT kill children or anyone else.
Perhaps you should read more of the New Testament if you want to be Christian and less of the Torah.

That would be nice.
And do you really believe I need preaching on Jesus being found in the O.T.? Or God Father being found in the N.T.?

I guess we'll find out when we get to heaven...

 

[GodsGrace]

Genesis 6:6 va-yinakhem ; binyan Niphal 3 pers. masc. sing. 6:7 nikhamti ; binyan Niphal, 1st pers. masc. sing..

The binyan Niphal here is not what "God" is doing, but what is happening to "God". IOW: It is not "God" performing the action, but participating in it as in the undergoing or suffering the effects as in v7:

6:7d nikhamti ki `asitim : I am suffered / grieved / sorry that I made them.

IOW: "God" was grieved by what his creation had become and had done.

Further, the perpetual covenant that is the rainbow, was given as a reminder that "God" would not destroy the earth in such manner (by flood) again:

Gen 9:11 And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of the flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth. 12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations: 13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth. 14 And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud, 15 and I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.

Wow.
Why didn't you speak as above when we were having our conversations.
It would have been interesting.
No more rain --- but maybe fire?

So God was grieved?
So He didn't know beforehand that His creation would grieve Him?
So why did He create us to begin with?

And maybe Job could learn how to exegete a verse instead of putting down persons who know how.
(even when they don't answer the question asked)

So YOU attribute evil to God the creator?
Wonderful....

He floods the earth, He kills innocent children, sends the mentally impaired to hell, etc etc.

It seems to me that Jesus taught that God is a God of love.

Since you're so intelligent, something you'd like ME not to be,
maybe you'd be wiling to explain to we mere mortals here,
WHERE EVIL DOES COME FROM.

That would be interesting.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yet even that shall shall be cast into the lake of fire. That described in Luke 16, are the places of waiting, or holding, distinct places for each, for the righteous, and for the wicked, until the time of judgment. Which can also be seen in Enoch.

Please exegete:

John 5:14
John 5:24
John 5:28-29
Mathew 22:13-14
Mathew 13:40
Mathew 12:35-37
Mathew 10:15
Mathew 10:33
Mathew 9:13
Mathew 7:19-23

All of the above is Jesus speaking about hell.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yet even that shall shall be cast into the lake of fire. That described in Luke 16, are the places of waiting, or holding, distinct places for each, for the righteous, and for the wicked, until the time of judgment. Which can also be seen in Enoch.

See post 109.
Luke 16 was NOT a holding pen for those who were in torment.
They were where they were meant to be.

 

[Job]

Ig is bliss.
No further comment.

You do that a lot.

.

 

[GodsGrace]

You do that a lot.

.

Job,
What is the use of continuing this conversation?
Am I going to convince you there's a hell?
Am I going to convince you that God is a God of love (1 John 4:8)
and is not sending mentally retarded children to hell?

NO.

So further conversation will only serve to waster our combined breath.
If you want to continue, it's fine with me. Pick a verse.

And how do you explain evil, as Richard O. understands it?
He's saying that God created evil. Do you agree with that?
Why does it say in some places in the O.T. that God causes calamity, or evil, and then in other places it says He does not and in the N.T. it says He does not. John 1:5 (in God there is no darkness) and God is love, 1 John 4:8

HOW do you explain this?

Show me some verses that say that the innocent are going to hell.
I've listed many for VictoryinJesus.

Show me some verses that say there is no hell.

I'm willing if you are. But I've stated my position and I hate arguing endlessly.

 

[Job]

Job,
What is the use of continuing this conversation?
Am I going to convince you there's a hell?
Am I going to convince you that God is a God of love (1 John 4:8)
and is not sending mentally retarded children to hell?

I never said there wasn't a hell. You assumed.

And I never stated that mentally handicapped children are going to hell.

If I said these things, show me the quote. If you can't, you need to stop making these accusations. You're lying about something I said and I don't like it.

If you're so sure of yourself, back up your accusations.

.

 

[Job]

Show me some verses that say that the innocent are going to hell.

Show me where I said they do.

.