What No Futurist Believes

[Hitch]

​

39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48I am that bread of life.
49Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Whats funny is that most futurists claim to take the scriptures literally. Yet they seldom ,if ever quote Jesus Christ.​

 

[mark s]

How do you prove a negative?

 

[Trekson]

Hitch, Your verse and following words" 54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Whats funny is that most futurists claim to take the scriptures literally. Yet they seldom ,if ever quote Jesus Christ.

Scriptures aren't always literal. Within the context, all of what Jesus is saying is figurative! Unless you want to believe that Christ is a loaf of pumpernickel bread and every time you eat it, it "literally" turns into His flesh, whereby making us cannibals. So too, the phrase, "the last day". According to Strong's the figurative definition of "day" (Gr. #2250) means defined by the context, it could be a day as well as an age, forever, judgment, while, or years. Within the context of the "whole" of what the scriptures teach on this subject, "age" would probably be the most appropriate usage.

 

[Hitch]

wow that took a double ration of silly putty.

You are invited to explain why His listeners would have reason to take him at anything but face value.

In this passage from Jn 6 Jesus specifically brings up the resurrection four times.

Odd you never see these verses quoted in a rousing ripper of repentance and rapture.

I dont think I ever seen these verses used in defense of and earthly millennial kingdom. You could get the idea that the resurrection didnt have anything to to with these matters.

To be fair once in a while some one will try to say that when Jesus placed the resurrection at the last day, he didnt mean it. Its one of those strange things done in the name of literalism.

I have to admit, I like being able to quote JESUS CHRIST in support of my position.

Hitch, Your verse and following words" 54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Whats funny is that most futurists claim to take the scriptures literally. Yet they seldom ,if ever quote Jesus Christ.

Scriptures aren't always literal. Within the context, all of what Jesus is saying is figurative! Unless you want to believe that Christ is a loaf of pumpernickel bread and every time you eat it, it "literally" turns into His flesh, whereby making us cannibals. So too, the phrase, "the last day". According to Strong's the figurative definition of "day" (Gr. #2250) means defined by the context, it could be a day as well as an age, forever, judgment, while, or years. Within the context of the "whole" of what the scriptures teach on this subject, "age" would probably be the most appropriate usage.

So eternal life means ???

If you say its literal , the cow is out of teh barn..

But ti raises more questions... get the pun?

If Jesus is incorrect and 'last day' means something besides the obvious, you're going to need more resurrections. Which cannot be account for scripturally

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Hitch.

39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48I am that bread of life.
49Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Whats funny is that most futurists claim to take the scriptures literally. Yet they seldom ,if ever quote Jesus Christ.

I don't have a problem with taking this passage or any such passage literally because I understand that the Resurrection of the Justified occurs at the BEGINNING of the 1000-year day, while the general Resurrection, which includes the Resurrection of the Unjust and their subsequent judgment - the Great White Throne Judgment - and execution - sentencing to the Lake of Fire and Sulfur - occurs at the END of the 1000-year day. It's all one LONG day to God, and it will be to us, too, since Yeshua`, the SUN of Righteousness, will out-do the sun and mix up the phases of the moon! (Isaiah 24:23)

Don't be so quick to dismiss the literal interpretation of Scripture. Sometimes, it's the only thing that makes SENSE!

 

[Hitch]

Shalom, Hitch.



I don't have a problem with taking this passage or any such passage literally because I understand that the Resurrection of the Justified occurs at the BEGINNING of the 1000-year day, while the general Resurrection, which includes the Resurrection of the Unjust and their subsequent judgment - the Great White Throne Judgment - and execution - sentencing to the Lake of Fire and Sulfur - occurs at the END of the 1000-year day. It's all one LONG day to God, and it will be to us, too, since Yeshua`, the SUN of Righteousness, will out-do the sun and mix up the phases of the moon! (Isaiah 24:23)

Don't be so quick to dismiss the literal interpretation of Scripture. Sometimes, it's the only thing that makes SENSE!

It is dishonest to make such a claim of 'literalness' while redefining the basic terms, in this case day. But you'll fool a few of em and they deserve it.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, again, Hitch.

wow that took a double ration of silly putty.

You are invited to explain why His listeners would have reason to take him at anything but face value.

In this passage from Jn 6 Jesus specifically brings up the resurrection four times.

Odd you never see these verses quoted in a rousing ripper of repentance and rapture.

I dont think I ever seen these verses used in defense of and earthly millennial kingdom. You could get the idea that the resurrection didnt have anything to to with these matters.

To be fair once in a while some one will try to say that when Jesus placed the resurrection at the last day, he didnt mean it. Its one of those strange things done in the name of literalism.

I have to admit, I like being able to quote JESUS CHRIST in support of my position.

So eternal life means ???

If you say its literal , the cow is out of teh barn..

But ti raises more questions... get the pun?

If Jesus is incorrect and 'last day' means something besides the obvious, you're going to need more resurrections. Which cannot be account for scripturally

We HAVE more resurrections! There are two large-scale resurrections: the Resurrection of the Just, and the Resurrection of the Unjust. Furthermore, I wouldn't put it past the Savior to have MULTIPLE RESURRECTIONS during the first 1000 years of His reign! After all, HE said it Himself!

John 11:21-27
21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ (the Messiah), the Son of God, which should come into the world.
KJV

Furthermore, why should His second coming be any different than His first? Remember His commission to His disciples when He sent them out to herald His arrival?

Matthew 10:5-10
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.
KJV

Furthermore, we are told that the new bodies which we will receive in our resurrection will be QUICKENING bodies! That means they will be bodies that are able to GIVE LIFE TO THE DEAD, just as the Messiah - the Last Adam - can!

1 Corinthians 15:35-54
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
KJV

So, let's not be too hasty to think there is only one general resurrection!

Shalom, Hitch.

It is dishonest to make such a claim of 'literalness' while redefining the basic terms, in this case day. But you'll fool a few of em and they deserve it.

Hmmph! I didn't "redefine" anything! Don't you read Scripture?

2 Peter 3:8
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
KJV

Revelation 20:1-15
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
KJV

No redefinition necessary. Just believe what is set before you!

 

[Hitch]

OK quote Jesus wrt multiple resurrections.

I wonder will the 'Millennium' turn out to be 365,000 years? LOL :blink:

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Do Trolls get resurrected ?

 

[biggandyy]

It's amazing how many christians don't see the similie when reading 2 Peter 3:8 when it is clearly there.

 

[Hitch]

[sup]8 [/sup]Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
[sup]29 [/sup]And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


LOL So now 'an hour' really means 'age'? And 'ALL' just means ,,what?

No wonder the world no longer takes the church seriously.

It doesnt take much to see Jesus speaks of a single event, which we learn in chapter 6 to be the end of time, but futurisim never has respected what Jesus actually said.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Hitch.

OK quote Jesus wrt multiple resurrections.

I wonder will the 'Millennium' turn out to be 365,000 years? LOL :blink:

Nah. Latin: "Mille" + "annum" = "a thousand" + "years." Greek: "Chilia" + "etee" = "a thousand" + "years." Pretty basic.

Shalom, Hitch.

[sup]8 [/sup]Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
[sup]29 [/sup]And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


LOL So now 'an hour' really means 'age'? And 'ALL' just means ,,what?

No wonder the world no longer takes the church seriously.

It doesnt take much to see Jesus speaks of a single event, which we learn in chapter 6 to be the end of time, but futurisim never has respected what Jesus actually said.

It's not necessary to make this a difficult-to-understand thing. The word translated as "hour" can also be translated as "time" for our idioms. He's not referring to a specific hour; He's saying that the time will come when ALL who are in their graves will hear His voice, but EACH IN HIS OWN TIME! Yeshua` is not claiming that there is but one general resurrection; He is saying that He is the Resurrection for all, regardless to which resurrection they belong! He will raise the Justified and the Unjustified alike. He's just not going into the specifics as to who is raised when!

The verse 29 that you quote names TWO separate resurrections!

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

[sup]8 [/sup]Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

You are clueless Hitch ..... did you not know that at His death Jesus went to preach in Hades (those in the grave) and also at the moment of His death the curtain was torn on the temple and many came out of the graves and walked the streets....

[sup]51 [/sup]At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. [sup]52 [/sup]The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. [sup]53 [/sup]They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus’ resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Sounds like all in the graves heard his voice Hitch ..... hope you do some day too. Do trolls have ears ?

 

[biggandyy]

Sorry Arn, your verse quoted says MANY holy folk, not all people in the grave. You are wrong on this one.

 

[Hitch]

You are clueless Hitch ..... did you not know that at His death Jesus went to preach in Hades (those in the grave) and also at the moment of His death the curtain was torn on the temple and many came out of the graves and walked the streets....

[sup]51 [/sup]At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. [sup]52 [/sup]The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. [sup]53 [/sup]They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus’ resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Sounds like all in the graves heard his voice Hitch ..... hope you do some day too. Do trolls have ears ?

Are you contending there is no resurrection to come?

You know the disciples raised many who were dead as well. You should be able to grasp that the nature of the resurrection , Jesus spoke of in J6, if vastly different as it invovled ALL the dead even those long since returned to dust.
And as you say, Im clueless, I dont know of a single instance in Scripture in which some one was raised from the dead who had been dead more that four days. You probably know of hundreds and I';d appreciate your sharing that information.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Sorry Arn, your verse quoted says MANY holy folk, not all people in the grave. You are wrong on this one.

Yes many Holy folks came out of the graves .... but all the dead heard Jesus

Are you contending there is no resurrection to come?

I am contending you said this

[sup]8 [/sup]Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

and then you tried to equate it to this

[sup]29 [/sup]And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

They are two different events .... and either you know it and are a troll , or you haven t a clue what you are talking about.

 

[Hitch]

Yes many Holy folks came out of the graves .... but all the dead heard Jesus



I am contending you said this


and then you tried to equate it to this


They are two different events .... and either you know it and are a troll , or you haven t a clue what you are talking about.

Hmmmm I will copy the text and invite you to ,from the text, explain your position ;

[sup]7 [/sup]And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
[sup]28 [/sup]Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
[sup]29 [/sup]And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Perhaps in your zeal you forgot that v28 comes just before v 29 ?

Maybe some other translations will help you out;
NIV
[sup]8 [/sup]“Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice [sup]29 [/sup]and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned. [sup]30 [/sup]By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.


Phillips

[sup]-29 [/sup]Jesus said to them, “I assure you that the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. What the Son does is always modelled on what the Father does, for the Father loves the Son and shows him everything that he does himself, Yes, and he will show him even greater things than these to fill you with wonder. For just as the Father raises the dead and makes them live, so does the Son give life to any man he chooses. The Father is no man’s judge: he has put judgment entirely into the Son’s hands, so that all men may honour the Son equally with the Father. The man who does not honour the Son does not honour the Father who sent him. I solemnly assure you that the man who hears what I have to say and believes in the one who has sent me has eternal life. He does not have to face judgment; he has already passed from death into life. Yes, I assure you that a time is coming, in fact has already come, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and when they have heard it they will live! For just as the Father has life in himself, so by the Father’s gift, the Son also has life in himself. And he has given him authority to judge because he is Son of Man. No, do not be surprised—the time is coming when all those who are dead and buried will hear his voice and out they will come—those who have done right will rise again to life, but those who have done wrong will rise to face judgment!

Youngs Literal

[sup]27 [/sup]and authority He gave him also to do judgment, because he is Son of Man.
[sup]28 [/sup]`Wonder not at this, because there doth come an hour in which all those in the tombs shall hear his voice,
[sup]29 [/sup]and they shall come forth; those who did the good things to a rising again of life, and those who practised the evil things to a rising again of judgment.

I dont think these are helping you much. Maybe you know some different ones.


I gotta admit, its wonderful to take Jesus at his word.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

OK quote Jesus wrt multiple resurrections.

At least two resurrections Hitch .... Read rev 20

They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [sup]5 [/sup](The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. [sup]6 [/sup]Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

And with sincerest apologies I must also inform you that the 1000 year reign is mentioned three times as well.

Yes ..... the 1000 year reign that you do not believe in Hitch. ..... Sorry .... I had to include it ..... because at the end of revelation it warned me not to remove any words from this prophecy .... so I left in the parts about the 1000 year reign ....

Can trolls count to a thousand ?

 

[Hitch]

At least two resurrections Hitch .... Read rev 20

They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [sup]5 [/sup](The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. [sup]6 [/sup]Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Arnie did Jesus say the believer already has eternal life?

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.



Hmmmm 'from death,,,unto life. Resurrection ?

Only for those humans who were once dead in sin. Im certain that doesnt apply to you and you have no need of spiritual resurrection .

And with sincerest apologies I must also inform you that the 1000 year reign is mentioned three times as well.

Yes ..... the 1000 year reign that you do not believe in Hitch. ..... Sorry .... I had to include it ..... because at the end of revelation it warned me not to remove any words from this prophecy .... so I left in the parts about the 1000 year reign ....

Odd you worry over a few words and think nothing of adding thousands of years.

Can trolls count to a thousand ?

Sorry I forgot to explain; See when God grants eternal life that means what is sometimes called 'The Second Death' has no more power over that individual. When God grants this eternal life the man becomes one of God's priests, and all this great stuff ,listed in R20 is part of the inheritance Christ won through the work of the cross and has graciously given us a partnership.

But you would prefer a floating city LOL

But you're half right about the two resurrections, number one s listed by John;

[sup]24 [/sup]Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
[sup]25 [/sup]Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.


Am I too far out on a limb to expect that even you can see this must refer to a spiritual reality rather than physical ?


The other is listed soon after;


[sup] [/sup]Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
[sup]29 [/sup]And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.



Any moron can see that the ALL THAT ARE IN THE GRAVES is defined by Christ personally in the next line as both the good and the evil.

But this is all way over your head.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Hitch ... if resurrection is just spiritual .... better call Jesus and tell him he made a hell of a mistake by letting those guys pound all those nails in him