What religion the State?

[Randy Kluth]

I do not know why Christians want to separate religion from the State? I understand why they may want to separate an official denomination from the State, lest one denomination use political power to control and abuse the others. But the idea that the State should be without a religion or any other religion than Christianity is besides me. It's as if Christians want to return to what they think is the ideal in the Early Church, when Christians were faced with persecution by the pagan Romans.

God's ideal for the State has always been Theism or Christianity. He showed this by giving Israel not just a State religion but very specific rules to live by. It's really no different in the NT era, because now God wants all nations to adopt the Christian religion, whether they choose to or not. There is no better religion for the State than Christianity, unless of course that Christianity is not really functioning as such.

I think many are concerned that Christianity, when it is mixed with the State, is purely nominal and functions in a purely perfunctory way. But that is pure cynicism. If the State can embrace the Christian religion as a State, then it certainly may be able to practice it in an effective way, if only temporarily and partially.

Many call us back to when Constantine began to tolerate the Christian religion within the Roman Empire. They say that sounded the death knell of Christianity, because then the State would begin to impose its pagan ways on the Christian religion, and Christian officials would become purely servants of a pagan State, abandoning their true Christianity.

But this was never true. After Rome tolerated and then embraced Christianity, many great Church Fathers emerged to help solidify Christian belief and doctrine, to enable it to survive for many centuries. Many charitable enterprises were allowed to flourish, even if there were imperfections in this mix between true Christianity and official Christianity.

Today, as Christianity slips into minority status within the Western states, I don't think we should harbor any illusions, though. We cannot try to impose the Christian religion on the state. But we can testify to the fact it *should be* the religion of all states. After all, we're preaching the Kingdom of God. He is the King of Kings, and will judge all states and all individuals, whether they accept it or not.

 

[Enoch111]

But the idea that the State should be without a religion or any other religion than Christianity is besides me.

The State does have a religion. First it was Secular Humanism. Then it was phony Liberalism. Now it is the worship of COVID-Moloch. Soon it will be Totalitarianism/Marxism/Communism/Fascism. Then it will be the New World Order. After that it will be the reign of the Antichrist and the worship of the Beast and the Dragon. And things could move forward (backwards in real terms) very quickly.

 

[MatthewG]

Hello Randy: very nice article you have here.

Would say that I believe that when it comes down to Christian and mixing politics that it imposes trying to fight the social-ills by a biblical stand point. When it comes to topics like homosexuality, abortion, use of porn, smoking cigarettes, whatever else you can think of that Christians are not to do those things. So to impose Christianity with-in politics even that of an whole State and the beliefs that are held in the bible will impose of the liberty of freedom that people have been given since birth for the most part.

Will say that Jesus Christ kingdom is not of this world otherwise His servants would fight is what He told Pilate when He was asked about if He was a King: which to this reason He was born to be a King but not the king of this world.

That are some thoughts that come to my head. There are people who just simply can not stand Christianity and have talked to them; and they will try to rile you up by what they may say however it is something where a person must realize and live by the spirit of Christ in understanding that as human beings we are all in darkness until we come to the light of all mankind and our lives start to change by having our mind changed in looking into the Good things that come from God and how the Lord Jesus Christ changes a person life by and through the spirit.

Now I will say there are believer who are out there and they are fighting social-ill and that is all fine and what not they are out there doing something trying to make a difference, the only real difference that makes a change in a persons life is allowing the Lord Jesus Christ in their life, I believe.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The State does have a religion. First it was Secular Humanism. Then it was phony Liberalism. Now it is the worship of COVID-Moloch. Soon it will be Totalitarianism/Marxism/Communism/Fascism. Then it will be the New World Order. After that it will be the reign of the Antichrist and the worship of the Beast and the Dragon. And things could move forward (backwards in real terms) very quickly.

What State are you referring to?

 

[Brakelite]

The role of the state is to protect religion. Not promote it. The concern you say that sums have regarding denominations is real. The moment the state says, you will follow such and such religion, in order to enforce that it needs legislation. In order to enforce the legislation there must be either incentives or punishments. The Puritans tried that. If anyone missed going to Sunday meetings 3 weeks in a row, it meant a death sentence. Before that were lashings, loss of home and income, and fines.
What are you going to threaten a Seventh Day Adventist, a Jew, or a Seventh Day Baptist with for working on Sunday? What about those who don't accept the Trinity? And what Trinity are you going to legislate? If you legislate the creeds, are you going to punish the dissenters the same way the Catholic Church punished the Aryans? By wiping out the entire culture? And who are you going to use to accomplish this,? The police or the army? And what of those in the army or police who hold different views? Fire them first? How many do you think will be left? And I haven't even touched on the concept of freedom of religion.

 

[Enoch111]

What State are you referring to?

Any government in the world. Everyone is worshipping at the shrine of COVID-Moloch and having their children sacrificed to this false god. In India, one village erected a shrine to "COVID-Mata" (Mother COVID) in order to hold back the infections.

But that is no worse than the pure superstition of Western governments and their obsession with having everyone injected with these bogus vaccines -- wilfully knowing that they are dangerous and lethal. Not a single government in the world said "We will not allow an infection with a death rate of only 0.1% (or less) to rob our citizens of their fundamental rights and freedoms".

 

[Enoch111]

The role of the state is to protect religion.

You could have added "ideally". In reality all governments hate Christianity. Look at what is happening in Canada right now. Ask any Western politician if he or she would rather favor Islam or godless Communism. You know what the answer will be. America and Canada (the governments) are ready, willing, and able to hand over the keys to China.

 

[Brakelite]

You could have added "ideally". In reality all governments hate Christianity. Look at what is happening in Canada right now. Ask any Western politician if he or she would rather favor Islam or godless Communism. You know what the answer will be. America and Canada (the governments) are ready, willing, and able to hand over the keys to China.

I agree with all your post except for the last word. China, while dangerous and seemingly powerful, is not the real enemy. All roads still lead to Rome. It is Rome's connections to the globalists and her increasing influence among world governments that ought to be the prime concern as far as world affairs is concerned. She hasn't changed since the council of Trent. The destruction of Protestantism is still here principal agenda and she is succeeding in ways people do not imagine, and in a manner they are unaware of. And their eternal destinies are at stake and they don't know it.

 

[Enoch111]

House Intelligence Committee Republicans Find China’s Malign Influence in Corporate America
"A Republican House Intelligence Committee investigation has found China’s malign influence deepening across corporate America, including in the pharmaceutical, manufacturing, agriculture, entertainment, media, finance, sports, and technology sectors, Ranking Member Devin Nunes (R-CA) revealed Sunday."

No Republican president or politician (other than Trump) tried to address the handover of the West to China even though Mao had thrown down the gauntlet more than 70 years ago. Year-by-year Western politicians handed over their countries to China by shipping jobs and industries to them while opening the floodgates to their immigrants, scientists, and students. And the above quote omits the infiltration of Chinese Communists into the most sensitive areas of government agencies such as health and defense.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I do not know why Christians want to separate religion from the State? I understand why they may want to separate an official denomination from the State, lest one denomination use political power to control and abuse the others. But the idea that the State should be without a religion or any other religion than Christianity is besides me. It's as if Christians want to return to what they think is the ideal in the Early Church, when Christians were faced with persecution by the pagan Romans.

God's ideal for the State has always been Theism or Christianity. He showed this by giving Israel not just a State religion but very specific rules to live by. It's really no different in the NT era, because now God wants all nations to adopt the Christian religion, whether they choose to or not. There is no better religion for the State than Christianity, unless of course that Christianity is not really functioning as such.

I think many are concerned that Christianity, when it is mixed with the State, is purely nominal and functions in a purely perfunctory way. But that is pure cynicism. If the State can embrace the Christian religion as a State, then it certainly may be able to practice it in an effective way, if only temporarily and partially.

Many call us back to when Constantine began to tolerate the Christian religion within the Roman Empire. They say that sounded the death knell of Christianity, because then the State would begin to impose its pagan ways on the Christian religion, and Christian officials would become purely servants of a pagan State, abandoning their true Christianity.

But this was never true. After Rome tolerated and then embraced Christianity, many great Church Fathers emerged to help solidify Christian belief and doctrine, to enable it to survive for many centuries. Many charitable enterprises were allowed to flourish, even if there were imperfections in this mix between true Christianity and official Christianity.

Today, as Christianity slips into minority status within the Western states, I don't think we should harbor any illusions, though. We cannot try to impose the Christian religion on the state. But we can testify to the fact it *should be* the religion of all states. After all, we're preaching the Kingdom of God. He is the King of Kings, and will judge all states and all individuals, whether they accept it or not.

Our nation was established so that Christianity was to be the moral compass for the government. It is subsequent SCOTUS decisions that have made it agains thte law to uphold any faith!
Remember the Constituion ONLY says this:

"Congress shall make no law towards the estaqblishemnt of religion." IOW prayer, bible readings etc. are not an establishemnt of religion. Unless they are denomination specific prayers like say the rosary.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Any government in the world. Everyone is worshipping at the shrine of COVID-Moloch and having their children sacrificed to this false god. In India, one village erected a shrine to "COVID-Mata" (Mother COVID) in order to hold back the infections.

But that is no worse than the pure superstition of Western governments and their obsession with having everyone injected with these bogus vaccines -- willfully knowing that they are dangerous and lethal. Not a single government in the world said "We will not allow an infection with a death rate of only 0.1% (or less) to rob our citizens of their fundamental rights and freedoms".

Not all nation states are in the same place at the same time. Nations rise and nations fall. They may begin well, and end badly. They may begin as a theocracy and end as a corrupt Christian dictatorship. It isn't the Christianity that weakens the State. It is the condition of the people in the State that destroys both the religion of the State and the State itself.

This late in history, we see the world becoming a global society, and as such, all are falling under the sway of a corrupt form of Christianity, one begun under the Roman Empire. Western values permeate the world in its corrupted form. This is not due to Christianity, but rather, to the corruption of man. What may have begun as a form of Christianity has now become something more akin to idolatry and paganism.

What dominant form of political philosophy or religion hasn't been influenced by this corrupt form of Christianity? Communism? Islam? Secular Humanism?

 

[Brakelite]

Our nation was established so that Christianity was to be the moral compass for the government.

I disagree. The nation was established so that Christianity was to be the moral compass for the individuals who make up the nation, some of whom would choose to represent the people in government. The nation became a beacon of hope for all people because it was the first to establish a state that guaranteed it would legislate without a Pope/pastor/archbishop or a king/queen/emperor lording himself over it.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I disagree. The nation was established so that Christianity was to be the moral compass for the individuals who make up the nation, some of whom would choose to represent the people in government. The nation became a beacon of hope for all people because it was the first to establish a state that guaranteed it would legislate without a Pope/pastor/archbishop or a king/queen/emperor lording himself over it.

Hi backlit:

You are confusing a specific religion with the faith of Christianity! So many of the founders touted Christianity (meaning Scripture not a denomination) as the guiding light for the nation. Yes it was to be teh moral compass for individuals and those individuals would be in govt. It is not an either /or but a both/and scenario.

Even that anti-Christian Thoimas Jefferson, in writing to the Danbury Baptist church in talking about separation of chruch and state said that the govt. was not to interfere with the church but the church could entwine itself with the Govt. and buy church he meant biblical faith.

 

[Brakelite]

Hi backlit:

You are confusing a specific religion with the faith of Christianity! So many of the founders touted Christianity (meaning Scripture not a denomination) as the guiding light for the nation. Yes it was to be teh moral compass for individuals and those individuals would be in govt. It is not an either /or but a both/and scenario.

Even that anti-Christian Thoimas Jefferson, in writing to the Danbury Baptist church in talking about separation of chruch and state said that the govt. was not to interfere with the church but the church could entwine itself with the Govt. and buy church he meant biblical faith.

Right now in the US we all witness a stolen government in the hands of thieves and charlatans. (BTW, I'm not in the US... I'm a kiwi living in Oz). Anyway, that won't last. We all know that. The conservative right will return with a vengeance. An administration such as the craziness that is going on now can't endure. The scary part is what takes place later. A union of the religious right in charge of a nation determined to ensure nothing like the present will happen again. The legislation now supporting LGBTQ... Gone. Abortion... Gone. Gender fluidity... Gone. Gay lobbying and bullying of conservatives in government and the marketplace and in schools... Gone. Sounds good so far huh.
Then the positives. Prayer in schools... Back. Bible studies in schools... Back. National anthem... Back. Creation and young earth Genesis teaching... Back.
But what about all the freedom of religion and rights of conscience so boasted of by Americans when defending their nation against Islam and Catholicism and paganism and communism? How far to the right will this new enthusiasm take the nation? How long before legislation is passed enforcing actual religious doctrine? Doctrine that not all Christians agree with? Doctrine that defend the nation from ever again sinking into the abyss that is the present woke crazy socialism? How far to the other extreme will the pendulum swing?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Right now in the US we all witness a stolen government in the hands of thieves and charlatans. (BTW, I'm not in the US... I'm a kiwi living in Oz). Anyway, that won't last. We all know that. The conservative right will return with a vengeance. An administration such as the craziness that is going on now can't endure. The scary part is what takes place later. A union of the religious right in charge of a nation determined to ensure nothing like the present will happen again. The legislation now supporting LGBTQ... Gone. Abortion... Gone. Gender fluidity... Gone. Gay lobbying and bullying of conservatives in government and the marketplace and in schools... Gone. Sounds good so far huh.
Then the positives. Prayer in schools... Back. Bible studies in schools... Back. National anthem... Back. Creation and young earth Genesis teaching... Back.
But what about all the freedom of religion and rights of conscience so boasted of by Americans when defending their nation against Islam and Catholicism and paganism and communism? How far to the right will this new enthusiasm take the nation? How long before legislation is passed enforcing actual religious doctrine? Doctrine that not all Christians agree with? Doctrine that defend the nation from ever again sinking into the abyss that is the present woke crazy socialism? How far to the other extreme will the pendulum swing?

It all doesn't matter to a follower opf Jesus. Of course I would love a strong believer in office! but if not and the nation turns and starts hunting down Christians- it matters not! I serve Almighty God and He is what matters.

 

[Emily Nghiem]

I do not know why Christians want to separate religion from the State? I understand why they may want to separate an official denomination from the State, lest one denomination use political power to control and abuse the others. But the idea that the State should be without a religion or any other religion than Christianity is besides me. It's as if Christians want to return to what they think is the ideal in the Early Church, when Christians were faced with persecution by the pagan Romans.

God's ideal for the State has always been Theism or Christianity. He showed this by giving Israel not just a State religion but very specific rules to live by. It's really no different in the NT era, because now God wants all nations to adopt the Christian religion, whether they choose to or not. There is no better religion for the State than Christianity, unless of course that Christianity is not really functioning as such.

I think many are concerned that Christianity, when it is mixed with the State, is purely nominal and functions in a purely perfunctory way. But that is pure cynicism. If the State can embrace the Christian religion as a State, then it certainly may be able to practice it in an effective way, if only temporarily and partially.

Many call us back to when Constantine began to tolerate the Christian religion within the Roman Empire. They say that sounded the death knell of Christianity, because then the State would begin to impose its pagan ways on the Christian religion, and Christian officials would become purely servants of a pagan State, abandoning their true Christianity.

But this was never true. After Rome tolerated and then embraced Christianity, many great Church Fathers emerged to help solidify Christian belief and doctrine, to enable it to survive for many centuries. Many charitable enterprises were allowed to flourish, even if there were imperfections in this mix between true Christianity and official Christianity.

Today, as Christianity slips into minority status within the Western states, I don't think we should harbor any illusions, though. We cannot try to impose the Christian religion on the state. But we can testify to the fact it *should be* the religion of all states. After all, we're preaching the Kingdom of God. He is the King of Kings, and will judge all states and all individuals, whether they accept it or not.

The natural laws of governance given by God to the state are expressed in Constitutional laws.

So the Scriptural laws are for following and rebuking between leaders and members as the Church body.

And the Constitutional laws are for upholding rebuking and reforming govt and public policy matters through leaders and people as their own govt.

Jesus governs both folds of the one flock.

Both Scriptural law and authority to mediate and resolve rebukes.

And natural laws and authority to restore Justice and Peace in that system.

Jesus is God's Universal Authority of Justice, which is called Equal Justice Under Law or Peace and Justice for All under the secular system of laws for the public.

We still need to put God's Universal Truth and Justice first, so that when we communicate in secular terms using Constitutional laws, it is consistent with both the laws of the Church and laws of the State.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The natural laws of governance given by God to the state are expressed in Constitutional laws.

So the Scriptural laws are for following and rebuking between leaders and members as the Church body.

And the Constitutional laws are for upholding rebuking and reforming govt and public policy matters through leaders and people as their own govt.

Jesus governs both folds of the one flock.

Both Scriptural law and authority to mediate and resolve rebukes.

And natural laws and authority to restore Justice and Peace in that system.

Jesus is God's Universal Authority of Justice, which is called Equal Justice Under Law or Peace and Justice for All under the secular system of laws for the public.

We still need to put God's Universal Truth and Justice first, so that when we communicate in secular terms using Constitutional laws, it is consistent with both the laws of the Church and laws of the State.

Unless I'm mistaken, I think I've finally found someone who puts God ahead of govt. itself? It's strange how many in the West today put the Church far down below the State. I do agree that the Church should have its own sphere, and the govt. its own sphere as well. But there's nothing to say both can't be Christian!

God is indeed above both State and Church. Therefore, we should judge both by the standards of Christ, and not let the govt. off the hook as some kind of assumed "neutral party." The govt. is anything but neutral. It should represent the people it rules over. If the people are Christian, then the govt. should be Christian.

But if we allow the govt. to rule unchecked by Christian standards, and the Christian people deliver their govt. over to some kind of "neutral" standard, then our leaders will gradually make bad laws, and the people will compromise.

The State should not, of course, govern as a Church. But it should govern as a Christian govt. with a Christian Constitution, assuming that the majority of the people are, in fact, practicing Christians. This is, I believe, God's ideal. Thank you for lifting God up above politics and religion! :)

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I do not know why Christians want to separate religion from the State? I understand why they may want to separate an official denomination from the State, lest one denomination use political power to control and abuse the others. But the idea that the State should be without a religion or any other religion than Christianity is besides me. It's as if Christians want to return to what they think is the ideal in the Early Church, when Christians were faced with persecution by the pagan Romans.

God's ideal for the State has always been Theism or Christianity. He showed this by giving Israel not just a State religion but very specific rules to live by. It's really no different in the NT era, because now God wants all nations to adopt the Christian religion, whether they choose to or not. There is no better religion for the State than Christianity, unless of course that Christianity is not really functioning as such.

I think many are concerned that Christianity, when it is mixed with the State, is purely nominal and functions in a purely perfunctory way. But that is pure cynicism. If the State can embrace the Christian religion as a State, then it certainly may be able to practice it in an effective way, if only temporarily and partially.

Many call us back to when Constantine began to tolerate the Christian religion within the Roman Empire. They say that sounded the death knell of Christianity, because then the State would begin to impose its pagan ways on the Christian religion, and Christian officials would become purely servants of a pagan State, abandoning their true Christianity.

But this was never true. After Rome tolerated and then embraced Christianity, many great Church Fathers emerged to help solidify Christian belief and doctrine, to enable it to survive for many centuries. Many charitable enterprises were allowed to flourish, even if there were imperfections in this mix between true Christianity and official Christianity.

Today, as Christianity slips into minority status within the Western states, I don't think we should harbor any illusions, though. We cannot try to impose the Christian religion on the state. But we can testify to the fact it *should be* the religion of all states. After all, we're preaching the Kingdom of God. He is the King of Kings, and will judge all states and all individuals, whether they accept it or not.

Separation of Church and Sate was purposed to protect the Church from government, not the other way around. Pilgrims and the founding fathers came here to seek freedom to practice their personal choice of religion, to choose which Christian denomination and not have the Pope for instance to infringe on their beliefs.
But of course the best government would be run by an honest King, Jesus.

 

[Taken]

The State does have a religion. First it was Secular Humanism. Then it was phony Liberalism. Now it is the worship of COVID-Moloch. Soon it will be Totalitarianism/Marxism/Communism/Fascism. Then it will be the New World Order. After that it will be the reign of the Antichrist and the worship of the Beast and the Dragon. And things could move forward (backwards in real terms) very quickly.

There is already a "cyber god" in the works.
A type of "computer" godhead, or somewhat of an (supposed mimicking) of an unseen, up in the sky, transmitting on "air waves", to every technical device owners instant reception. A sort of religion OF the World.
Absurd, yet Scary how many will fall for it, without a thought of WHO programs the propoganda.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Separation of Church and Sate was purposed to protect the Church from government, not the other way around. Pilgrims and the founding fathers came here to seek freedom to practice their personal choice of religion, to choose which Christian denomination and not have the Pope for instance to infringe on their beliefs.
But of course the best government would be run by an honest King, Jesus.

I like that last part. The best president and king would be Jesus. He is, after all, king over all kings. However, if Christians run the State, they have Jesus in their heart, and in a real sense, Jesus rules through them. That's an ideal, I know, but nevertheless something to shoot for.

Yes, church freedoms sometimes need protecting from an overly controlling State political elite. Constitutions are drawn up to do this. If the State itself is not Christian, it is not likely to care too much for Christian freedoms.