What Scripture reveals about man’s salvation

[John Zain]

This is my attempt to reconcile the many conflicting Scriptures and doctrines re: man’s salvation.

Note-1: Throughout Scripture, God has desired man to co-operate in His endeavors on earth.
Note-2: God has somewhat hidden several negative truths that are extremely unpopular.

Scripture references are available for everything below, unless it is IMO and marked with (*).
BAC means “born-again Christian”.

• God created angels and humans to have free will … He had no desire to be worshipped by robots.

• Adam and Eve were created to have perfect fellowship with God, but Satan deceived them
into disobeying God (i.e. sinning), and they were banished from the Garden of Eden
and were given a sin nature, which they passed down to all humans (except One).

• One of God’s Laws: Sin results in both physical and spiritual death (separation from God forever).
Thus, man was not suitable to spend eternity with God, and would be separated from Him in hell.

• But, God decided to extend mercy and grace (God’s unmerited favor) to some of the human race.
He desired (for His glory), through His mercy and grace, to bless (i.e. rescue) some people.

• First, God desired to prove to everyone forever that man is totally incapable of pleasing Him.
He chose the smallest and weakest nation, Israel, to be His specially-pampered “chosen people”.
They would actually play the role of man’s representatives before God, but they failed miserably.

• Next, God designed a plan of salvation that would be “foolishness” to the normal human being.
He decided that His justice would be satisfied, if a sinless man died for the sins of the human race.
His Messiah-Redeemer-Savior would be God Himself, and He would live on earth in a man’s body.
God’s Spirit would perform a miracle and play the role of “father” of this Messiah, called Jesus Christ.
This God-Man would be “without sin”, and therefore could pay the penalty of death for man’s sins.

• God had His reasons for who He would choose to embrace His “foolish” gospel message.
He sees no time ... He sees everything … all the way from the beginning of history to the very end.
He would elect some people from ALL of the world’s tribes, ethnic groups, nations, countries, etc.

• Salvation is through God’s grace and is NOT through any of man’s good works. Because of his sin
nature, man has always been spiritually blind and deaf and totally incapable of accepting God’s truth.
God gives some people a spiritual revelation, which is His free gift of grace-faith-salvation. However,
man has the free-will choice to accept or reject this revelation, and this is called “prevenient grace”.

• Those who initially believe-trust in Jesus and His gospel are given the Holy Spirit to be inside of them.
These are BACs, and it is never promised that this grace-faith-salvation will remain forever until the end
of their lives. Only to the faithful “elect” of God are some NT verses of guaranteed salvation given (*).
The famous “easy-believism” verses are simply to catch the simple fishes. However, one who truly
believes (unto obedience and full sanctification) is part of God’s “elect” and will gain eternal life.

• BACs are sanctified (set apart) for further refinement (they still have their sin nature to deal with).
They embark on their sanctification process where the Holy Spirit tries to sanctify them unto holiness.
Only with the help of the Holy Spirit can BACs be victorious over sin, and actually be overcomers.
BACs have the free-will choice to co-operate (or not) with the Holy Spirit’s attempts to sanctify them (*).

• The many warnings/threats to the churches are NOT to get God’s elect “in line” … because
then they would be out-and-out lies or deceptions. Note that 3 of the more mild warnings say
that those BACs who are truly righteous in God’s eyes actually practice righteousness. Because
of all of the many dozens of warning/threats, some BACs do actually fall away from the faith (*).
Therefore, not all BACs are part of God’s elect (*).

• Any person at death who has a habitual sin (e.g. unforgiveness, lying, etc.) is shut out of heaven.
But, one may still repent and believe and trust in Jesus and His gospel, even on his death-bed (*).
However, 2 passages say that once a BAC goes back into a sin lifestyle, he can never return to the faith.

 

[day]

When a doctrine is Biblical the scriptures will flow easily. When a doctrine is man-made the scriptures will not fit without effort.

I can not share the interpretations you have presented. One of the major problems I have is that the two main passages that use the term "predestination" are passages where Paul was writing about the Jews as having been chosen by God to receive his oracles and promises. It is not about Christian believers.

I do agree with your beginning statements - God created angels and humans to have free will. He does not want robots. God requires man to cooperate in His plans. But starting with the sin of Adam and Eve and the nature of man, I begin to part company. It would take too long a post starting in Genesis 3 to explain all the differences, so I will start with a couple questions - What do you think Adam and Eve's sin was, and what exactly was attributed to their descendants and why?

My understanding is that Adam and Eve were created directly by God to represent all humanity. They were created as a mix of carnal and spiritual natures. God's intention was to gradually transform them into spiritual creatures that would reflect his nature of love. God required their cooperation and trust to allow the Holy Spirit to work in them. He gave them the free choice to agree or not. When Satan told them "You will not die" he declared God's word untrustworthy. And when Satan said that God was keeping them from becoming like gods, he declared God's intentions toward them were not good. They chose to believe Satan and thus forfeited the Holy Spirit. This allowed the carnal nature to dominate the spiritual rather than the other way around, both in themselves and in all their offspring. This was the physical consequence of Adams sin, the spiritual consequence was that the guilt of falsely accusing God of unfaithfulness in word, and evil in intention hung over the head of all humanity, until out of God's unmerited favor, He provided another representative - Jesus.

 

[FHII]

When a doctrine is Biblical the scriptures will flow easily. When a doctrine is man-made the scriptures will not fit without effort.

I can not share the interpretations you have presented. One of the major problems I have is that the two main passages that use the term "predestination" are passages where Paul was writing about the Jews as having been chosen by God to receive his oracles and promises. It is not about Christian believers.

Just out of curiosity, which two main passages are you referring to?

 

[lforrest]

Matthew 20:16 "So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen."

Here is my reasoning regarding this verse:
The calling doesn't require free will, the answering of the call does. Those who answer the call are on the path of the chosen. Should those on the path persevere until the end they will find that they are the chosen spoken of in this verse.

The problem with that is that God does the choosing, not us. We have to walk the path and persevere, but it's clear that God choses whom he will, and he said he did it before the foundation of the world.

I will continue this discussion about predestination here because it is related to this topic.

God with his foreknowledge is able to choose those whom will persevere. I don't believe that the choice God made before the foundation of the world concerning his elect was done in a vacuum. He knew all aspects of every person's life from the very beginning and was able to choose accordingly. I believe that our wills have influenced his choice considerably.

 

[FHII]

I will continue this discussion about predestination here because it is related to this topic.

God with his foreknowledge is able to choose those whom will persevere. I don't believe that the choice God made before the foundation of the world concerning his elect was done in a vacuum. He knew all aspects of every person's life from the very beginning and was able to choose accordingly. I believe that our wills have influenced his choice considerably.

Ok, but I was wondering if you could tell me what the two main verses are that you are referring to/

 

[williemac]

But, one may still repent and believe and trust in Jesus and His gospel, even on his death-bed (*).

However, 2 passages say that once a BAC goes back into a sin lifestyle, he can never return to the faith.

Herin lies a contradiction. You say that a sinning Christian can repent of his sin, even on his deathbed. However what good will that be if he can never return to the faith?
The real truth is that one can only not return to faith if he actually left faith (Heb.6:1-6) . Faith is the issue. In Heb.10:39, we read.." but we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. You, my friend are caught in a real bad place in your attempt to get men to remain justified by their behavior rather than or as well as, by continuing and remaining in faith.
You also deny 1John 2:1, which promises the believer has an advocate with the Father if he should sin. As well, you deny the promise that whenever sin abounds, grace abounds all the more. And, you mock the sacrifice of Jesus for the remission of sin by your insisting that sin was not really remitted.
Further to that, we are promised that by our faith, we will not come under judgment (John 5:24). This follows that judgment can only occur if faith is absent. And I assure you that if one is attempting to be justified by his behavior, then faith is absent. If a believer needs repenting of anything, it should be the repentance of mixing grace with law, for justification. We are not under law. Therefore we are not under the penalty of the law, namely DEATH. The law cannot produce life (Gal.3:21). It has no part in our salvation other than to remind us that we are saved by an outside source and not by our own resources.

It is a mistake to think that we are given the Holy Spirit so that by the Spirit we can be justified by the law. But this is your doctrine. It is errant.
It is a mistake to think in terms of absolutes in this case. One can have a little fruit and a lot of sin. One can have a lot of fruit and a little sin. Both are acceptable. Jesus told us that if we remain in Him we WILL bear fruit. He causes the fruit.
But to have all fruit and no sin, though it is our target, it does not exist. Not on the basis of 24/7, 365. In other words, not in absolute terms.
So the uncomfortable reality is that sin is included in the christian "lifestyle". This is why we have an advocate. Paul said that we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the excellence of the power may be of God and not of us (2Cor.4:7). We are in a weak and compromised condition, having our flesh remain with us in this life. But the purpose is so that we remain humble and dependent upon grace and mercy rather than on our own merit. The potential for boasting has been eliminated in our salvation (Eph.2:9). Boasting is a form of self worship. Any merit that is based on performance or behavior, carries the potential for boasting.

 

[John Zain]

When a doctrine is Biblical the scriptures will flow easily. When a doctrine is man-made the scriptures will not fit without effort.

Would you care to explain the many dozens of warnings and threats to the churches,
some of which actually threaten the LOSS of eternal life or the GAIN of eternal death?

I.E. How do these flow side by side with your supposed promises of God's grace forever?

 

[williemac]

Would you care to explain the many dozens of warnings and threats to the churches,
some of which actually threaten the LOSS of eternal life or the GAIN of eternal death?

I.E. How do these flow side by side with your supposed promises of God's grace forever?

I did just that but it seems to have had no effect on your position. In my case, I have showed how most of these so called "warnings" do not apply to believers but rather to those who are outside of the faith. As well, I have showed how some of these so called" warnings" are merely instructions and marching orders that in context do not carry with them the threat of damnation. In short, that which you call a warning is not really a requirement for salvation, but you are mistakenly applying it to that category. We can go around this mountain all day, but the reality is that the very same demand you are making on others to explain certain passages, you yourself refuse to do when other passages are presented to you. So if you want something explained, why not practice what you preach and go first? Otherwise the very same contradictions that you claim others have , you continue to have as well with no acknowledgment of any relevancy to that fact. What do we call it when someone practices the very same thing he criticizes others for? Hypocrisy!

What you have failed to recognize is that no matter what we are told to do or not to do, the most vital and crucial aspect is in the motivation. Simply put, you are stuck in a religion that demands that we save ourselves. Your interpretation of these what you call "warnings" is that we are required to be our own saviors. But in reality, of the many rewards that come from our behavior and our fruit, salvation is NOT one of them. There is only ONE savior. This is the victory that overcomes the world- OUR FAITH (1John5:4)....(.Not our behavior. )

There are some things that God tolerates and others He does not. He will tolerate sin in this world and in His children because He has dealt with the sin issue through the sacrifice for its remission. What He will NOT tolerate is the attempt to overshadow, undermine, reduce, or insult that sacrifice by adding something to it, for justification to life.

 

[John Zain]

I have showed how most of these so called "warnings" do not apply to believers
but rather to those who are outside of the faith.

I asked the following of poster day, not of you ...

Would you care to explain the many dozens of warnings and threats to the churches,
some of which actually threaten the LOSS of eternal life or the GAIN of eternal death?
I.E. How do these flow side by side with your supposed promises of God's grace forever?

Your response is utter nonsense (as usual) in light of the U/L.

 

[day]

Just out of curiosity, which two main passages are you referring to?

Romans 8:29-30 and Ephesians 1:11-12

 

[FHII]

Romans 8:29-30 and Ephesians 1:11-12

I appreciate the reply, and I have to issue an apology to Iforrest. Got you two mixed up.... Sorry.

I disagree with you on that though... But, I'm not going to sidetrack the thread.... This is Evangelist7's wonderful work, not mine!

 

[horsecamp]

The cause of the election of grace is alone the mercy of God and the most holy merit of Christ, and there is in us no cause for the sake of which God has elected us unto eternal life. (Cf. Formula of Concord, Epitome, XI, 20.) Eph. 1,4-5; Tit. 3,4-7.

 

[williemac]

I asked the following of poster day, not of you ...

Would you care to explain the many dozens of warnings and threats to the churches,
some of which actually threaten the LOSS of eternal life or the GAIN of eternal death?
I.E. How do these flow side by side with your supposed promises of God's grace forever?

Your response is utter nonsense (as usual) in light of the U/L.

That is of course, your prerogative, to sluff me off. This "I am not talking to you" business is an just a convenient way to hold on to your position without replying to the contradictions with scripture that it holds. John 5:24 is not "supposed" scripture. It is a promise that those in faith will not be judged. Avoid it all you want, but I have every right to post my replies whether you like it or not. This is for public viewing. If I fail to convince you, then maybe I will save someone else from the bondage that your "supposed" warnings can bring.
Yes, bondage is a strong word. Look it up in the letter to the Galatians (5:1). They were rebuked for adding the law to faith for justification to life. We are not under law. I am not making that up. It is written. The warning that I see in that letter has nothing to do with falling away through sinning, but rather with thinking that one's obedience to law can justify them. This results in the falling from grace. If we want to warn people from anything, we should follow biblical suit and warn them not to fall from faith or grace. Adding one's own righteousness to faith is a shipwreck waiting to happen.

 

[FHII]

Great verse, williemac! And great post.

 

[lforrest]

The cause of the election of grace is alone the mercy of God and the most holy merit of Christ, and there is in us no cause for the sake of which God has elected us unto eternal life. (Cf. Formula of Concord, Epitome, XI, 20.) Eph. 1,4-5; Tit. 3,4-7.

If there is no cause for the election, there wouldn't be a disproportionate number of believers from a humble background 1 Corinthians 1:26-29.

This isn't to say that humility is a formula for being one of the chosen. God can see into the heart, so it is possible that one who is consumed by the things of this world may be called and repent.

 

[williemac]

If there is no cause for the election, there wouldn't be a disproportionate number of believers from a humble background 1 Corinthians 1:26-29.

This isn't to say that humility is a formula for being one of the chosen. God can see into the heart, so it is possible that one who is consumed by the things of this world may be called and repent.

I'm not sure what you mean, but humility is exactly a 'criteria' (formula?) for being chosen. Otherwise the quote that God gives grace to the humble and resists the proud is wrong (James 4:6).
In Luke 18:10-14, Jesus tells of two men praying. The one who went away justified was he who humbled himself by confessing his sin and asking for mercy. He concluded with the information that he who humbles himself will be exalted and he who exalts himself will be humbled. Was Jesus not aware of the election? By the way, election and selection are not the same word. I suspect they are often confused with one another.

 

[John Zain]

If there is no cause for the election, there wouldn't be a disproportionate number of believers from a humble background
1 Corinthians 1:26-29.

This isn't to say that humility is a formula for being one of the chosen.
God can see into the heart, so it is possible that one who is consumed by the things of this world may be called and repent.

Yes, 1 Corinthians 1:26++++ is a good first indicator of who is initially called and chosen.

“I dwell in the high and holy place with him who has a contrite and humble spirit” (Isaiah 57:15)
More: 2 Samuel 22:28, Psalm 34:18, Psalm 149:4, Proverbs 3:34, Zephaniah 3:12, James 4:6

A repentant heart towards God is absolutely necessary:
“… unless you repent you will all likewise perish (physically & spiritually) (Luke 13:3, 5)

Truly, the poor (in various ways) are the most likely to have the right heart attitude:
“He (Father God) has anointed Me (Jesus) to preach the gospel to the poor” (Luke 4:18)
“Has God not chosen the poor to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom?” (James 2:5)
More: (Isaiah 61:1, 66:2), Luke 7:22, Matthew 11:5

 

[day]

Would you care to explain the many dozens of warnings and threats to the churches,
some of which actually threaten the LOSS of eternal life or the GAIN of eternal death?

I.E. How do these flow side by side with your supposed promises of God's grace forever?

I am not sure what you are referring to related to my previous post. I do believe that a person can lose eternal salvation. It is not easy, you have to fight your way out of God's hand, he does not let you go easily, but if you insist, he will ultimately let you have your way, he will not save you against your will. Nothing created can take you from him and he will never be the one to break off the relationship, only you can do that.

 

[williemac]

I am not sure what you are referring to related to my previous post. I do believe that a person can lose eternal salvation. It is not easy, you have to fight your way out of God's hand, he does not let you go easily, but if you insist, he will ultimately let you have your way, he will not save you against your will. Nothing created can take you from him and he will never be the one to break off the relationship, only you can do that.

I just had a thought that might be relevant to your reply. I agree with what you are saying, here. I hold the same viewpoint, in so many words. However, it seems to me that the bible does not speak in terms of one walking away from God. It speaks in terms of falling away. And there are only two things that I know of in relation to falling away; faith and grace. One can fall from faith. One can fall from grace.

Contrary to what some are insisting here, one cannot lose eternal life by way of sinning. But the sobering truth is that one can possibly lose life by not sinning if it is done in replacement of faith, for justification. When one falls from faith, it is because they are falling into something else. Thus the kingdom suffers the violence of the proud who endeavor to take it by force rather than receiving it by faith. (pharisees beware). But when will they learn that God's hand cannot be forced? For,.."who has first given to Him, that it should be repaid?" (Rom.11:35) Everlasting life is not nor ever will be payment for service or behavior rendered.

The poison that most threatens the Christian is the lure, the trap, the temptation to earn life. Not that we are stupid enough to initially try to earn it through works, but some naive enough to accept the lie that we keep (hold on to, maintain) life through our works. Blessings, Howie (williemac)

 

[John Zain]

Contrary to what some are insisting here, one cannot lose eternal life by way of sinning.

Some of my favorites about Christians sinning ...

James 1:12-15 [SIZE=11pt]•[/SIZE] Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

Rev 21:7-8 [SIZE=11pt]• [/SIZE]He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
This applies to everyone on the planet.

2 Pet 2:20-22 [SIZE=11pt]• [/SIZE]For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”

Mark 9:43-48 [SIZE=11pt]• [/SIZE]If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched — where ‘Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.’ And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched — where ‘Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.’ And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire — where ‘Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.’

1 John 1:7-10 • But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

Rom 6:15-23 • What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace?Certainly not! Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether (slaves) of sin leading to DEATH, OR (slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness? But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is DEATH. But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. For the wages of sin is (eternal) DEATH, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
My personal favorite … but certainly the most difficult one to grasp, that's for sure!