What sort of assumption makes one think.......

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marks

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For those opposed to Gods love it is and will be seen by them as his wrath.
What wickedness sees is the exact opposite of what is on display....for the whole Universe to see. Humans project onto God their own faithlessness including their vengeful visions and intentions.....just how the devil likes it!
You lay it on thick!

And you seem to have an aversion to addressing the Scriptures I'm posting that show something different.

Do you declare me "opposed to God's love"? That I see my own wickedness projected onto God because I believe those Scriptures I've posted?

That's the message here?

Much love!
 
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marks

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For those opposed to Gods love it is and will be seen by them as his wrath.

Isaiah 63:2-6 KJV
2) Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
3) I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
4) For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
5) And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.
6) And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.

Of Whom does the prophet speak?

Much love!
 

Wrangler

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I see you've sidestepped the question

Ditto.

<sigh> When you are COMMANDED to do something over and over again, it is NOT an assumption.

Most people realize that is a mistranslation. The command is thou shalt not murder.

False Alternative. Ecclesiastes is famous for pointing out how there are different seasons and times to kill and times not to kill.

A deep thinker must discern the difference.

ASSUMPTION. You think God created humans, allowed the choice to sin while enjoying no pain?

On the contrary, it fits perfectly with God’s plan. We must choose good or evil. The devil tempting us only brings out what is there. Such is what God did to pharaoh in hardening his heart.

Let me put the most basic point in the form of a question. When you are COMMANDED to do something over and over again, it is NOT an assumption, is it?
 

Wrangler

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For those opposed to Gods love it is and will be seen by them as his wrath.

Revealed, the absence of an objective world view. Wrath does not depend on POV, how it is 'seen.'

Since you like things posed as questions, try this one. How is wrath - killing billions of people or having billions of people killed in a single day - to be seen as not wrath?
 

Curtis

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Noah knew intimately the details and dimensions of the ark. He knew how many animals were coming, and he knew how many the ark could hold. And he preached righteousness for 120 years by the Spirit of Christ
KJV 2 Peter 2:5
5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
KJV 1 Peter 3:19-20
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
KJV 1 Peter 4:6
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
Did he preach the gospel knowing the ark wasn't big enough to accommodate more than 8 people?

Noah knew intimately the details and dimensions of the ark. He knew how many animals were coming, and he knew how many the ark could hold. And he preached righteousness for 120 years by the Spirit of Christ
KJV 2 Peter 2:5
5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
KJV 1 Peter 3:19-20
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
KJV 1 Peter 4:6
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
Did he preach the gospel knowing the ark wasn't big enough to accommodate more than 8 people?

So what’s your point?

God waited until sodom had less than ten righteous in it to destroy it, and waited until “the whole earth was filled with violence” and the only righteous left were Noah and his family, to destroy the earth.

There was no room on the ark for converts. Noah was preaching righteousness to a world full of deaf ears.
 

quietthinker

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The point is, the One who sits on the horse will slay them all. And that One is Jesus.

Isaiah 63:1-6 KJV
1) Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
2) Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
3) I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
4) For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
5) And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.
6) And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.

Who trod the winepress?

Much love!
Who trod the winepress??....the context is a conversation with who? Could it be one with himself and the winepress Calvary?? I would say so...see verse 5
 

quietthinker

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Revealed, the absence of an objective world view. Wrath does not depend on POV, how it is 'seen.'

Since you like things posed as questions, try this one. How is wrath - killing billions of people or having billions of people killed in a single day - to be seen as not wrath?
The questions you pose arise from an absence of understanding the Jesus story.
Yes, you have a cognitive knowledge however you have missed its intent.
 

quietthinker

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I feel like I'm dancing with you.

Then you are universalist, no further judgment. Or Jesus will judge Humanity, and some will be destroyed by Him. Which is it?

Much love!
I will say it again, I am not a Universalist.
Go through Romans 5:12-21 slowly. Paul reiterates the same point half a dozen times because he knows the difficulty in having it register.
 

quietthinker

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Mass suicide of the ungodly. Why would they do that?
Why would Judas commit suicide after he had confessed his sin in betraying Jesus and made restitution? It's because he wouldn't believe he could be forgiven or that Jesus would forgive him. The paradigm he had doggedly developed in his association with Jesus over the three years had set him up.....even though he exercised the gift given him with the other disciples of healing the sick and raising the dead. Something terrible happened in his mind where he couldn't live with the knowledge of what he had done and preferred death to life.

This is the ultimate bondage of Sin. It is the same reason all the wicked including Satan and his hordes will self destruct......and when this finally happens I will look over towards God and see tears in his eyes and hear 'why oh why will ye die?'
There will be no joy in the heart of God by the demise of the wicked....ones he came to give his own life for.

Here is another factor to consider.....God has time on his side, he is immortal....his creatures are not. Time for those on a rebellious trajectory has a use by date. They will by the sheer passing of time end up going back to the dust where they came from.
 

quietthinker

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You lay it on thick!

And you seem to have an aversion to addressing the Scriptures I'm posting that show something different.

Do you declare me "opposed to God's love"? That I see my own wickedness projected onto God because I believe those Scriptures I've posted?

That's the message here?

Much love!
All of us as humans want to run and hide from the presence of God and we invent theories to accomodate our projections because that's what sin does. Our pride becomes our stumbling block.

The message of the Gospel of God's free and unfettered grace towards those who have every intention of getting rid of him is unprecedented. It is in fact so overwhelmingly generous it is almost 'unbelievable'

The scriptures though inspired by God nevertheless came through the pen of man and he did not force their hand. They wrote as they best understood this inspiration....they wrote through the lens of their own paradigm which understandably was coloured by their own cultural heritage. We can see this in certain Prophecy where swords and horses are used to convey messages. They use these terms because they had no idea about nuclear or laser or any of the modern methods we employ today.

How do we deal with this difference in understanding? We have the witness of Jesus.....he is the definitive revelation of God's character.
We are encouraged to look and listen closer at the man who challenged preceding understandings of OT utterances.

'You have heard said ......' Jesus is recorded as saying 'but I say unto you.....' The 'but' expression supercedes what they had heard said and 'what they had heard said' was from the scriptures they knew.
 

marks

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They wrote as they best understood this inspiration....
Peter tells us that the prophet did not write from their own interpretation, so this is directly addressed in Scripture. He goes on to say that holy men of God wrote as the Holy Spirit moved them. So I'll go with that.

Much love!
 

Wrangler

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The questions you pose arise from an absence of understanding the Jesus story.
Yes, you have a cognitive knowledge however you have missed its intent.

I missed your intent? Try using words to explicitly state your intent.

I have been told for decades that I don’t understand the trinity. Wrong. I reject the trinity.

We know God is a warrior for he is the LORD of Heavens Armies, the LORD of hosts. And I noticed you ignore the point of God killing billions in 1 Day - through Jesus.
 

quietthinker

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Peter tells us that the prophet did not write from their own interpretation, so this is directly addressed in Scripture. He goes on to say that holy men of God wrote as the Holy Spirit moved them. So I'll go with that.

Much love!
they did...absolutely!....don't you think however they should have got the swords and horses expressions up to date?
 

Curtis

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I’ve read the Greek Orthodox universalist writing that God has no wrath to be saved from, that there’s no hell, because hell is what those who hate god experience when forced to be around God and his love in heaven, yadda yadda yadda.

There’s absolutely no way that any reasonable interpretation of the scriptures lead to that ludicrous conclusion.

Heaven is up, hell is down, they are not synonymous.

You have to tear up half the Bible to accept the doctrine that God has no wrath, does not judge and destroy evil doers, and that God haters interpret Gods love as wrath.

Jesus calls vultures to assemble and have a feast on the evil people He destroys at His second combing, but in a loving way, of course...ahem...

Reminds me of the movie MARS ATTACKS! where the aliens are saying they come in peace over and over as they are killing earthlings.

Now picture Jesus with the sword He comes with saying I LOVE YOU as he’s killing evil people.

Gives a new meaning to the phrase, I love you to death, eh?

Shalom Aleichem
 
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quietthinker

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You have to tear up half the Bible to accept the doctrine that God has no wrath, does not judge and destroy evil doers, and that God haters interpret Gods love as wrath.
You choose to deliberately distort what I am saying Curtis. Why is that? Are your ears unable to hear...to be objective?
 

Curtis

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they did...absolutely!....don't you think however they should have got the swords and horses expressions up to date?

Do you remember Einstein saying he doesn’t know what WW3 will be fought with, but WW4 will be fought with sticks and stones?

You don’t know the future - they might very well be back to horses and swords when those prophecies are fulfilled.

You don’t believe the Bible much, do you?

It’s clear from your remarks that you don’t.

The pick and choose method of theology doctrine does not lead to truth.

Maranatha
 
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quietthinker

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Do you remember Einstein saying he doesn’t know what WW3 will be fought with, but WW4 will be fought with sticks and stones?

You don’t know the future - they might very well be back to horses and swords when those prophecies are fulfilled.

You don’t believe the Bible much, do you?

It’s clear from your remarks that you don’t.

The pick and choose method of theology doctrine does not lead to truth.

Maranatha
I see your recourse is to make it personal!
 

Curtis

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You choose to deliberately distort what I am saying Curtis. Why is that? Are your ears unable to hear...to be objective?

You flat out said that those who hate god misinterpret Gods love as wrath.
 

Curtis

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1Now when Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2and he began to teach them.
He said:
3“Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.
10Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11“Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Salt and Light

13“You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

14“You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house.16In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

The Fulfillment of the Law

17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Murder

21“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, a and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister bc will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ d is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

23“Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.

25“Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

Adultery

27“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ e 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

Divorce

31“It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’ f 32But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Oaths

33“Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ 34But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King.36And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one. g

Eye for Eye

38“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ h 39But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Love for Enemies

43“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor i and hate your enemy.’ 44But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

....continued
Be aware that Jesus said that everything he said and did was what he saw and heard the Father say and do.
 

Curtis

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You choose to deliberately distort what I am saying Curtis. Why is that? Are your ears unable to hear...to be objective?

Quote:

quietthinker said:
For those opposed to Gods love it is and will be seen by them as his wrath.