Butch5, on 13 February 2012 - 06:27 PM, said:
Firstly, this is not a quote from Justin, it is someone who is giving the events of His martyrdom.
Steve--- It makes no difference.
It makes no difference? Seriously? You’re telling me Justin believed he was going to heaven by giving me a quote from someone else? I gave you just own words, from his own mouth. You’ve given a quote by someone who was anonymous. You've spoken about me putting forth dogma, Steve, what is this? You've made your claim and this quote isn't even from Justin. You say it makes no difference, certainly it does. You're trying to prove what Justin believed, and you're quoting an anonymous writer who contradicts the quote from Justin himself
Butch5---I gave a quote from Justin himself.
Steve---Justin was not denying that we go to heaven, he was denying them that say there is no ressurection (Sadducees), and those who say we go to heaven immediately on death (other sects). You have misquoted Justin to fit in with your own agenda.
The Sadducees were long gone by Justin’s time, it was the Gnostics that he was refuting. You keep saying I’m misquoting Justin, can supply a quote from Justin himself that says he believed Christians went to heaven?
Here again, heavenly is an “Adjective” he is opposing a heavenly life with and earthly life. He didn’t say a life in heaven...
Steve---Where do you get this from? This is simply not true, it just fits in with your dogmatic agenda to come up with excuses when the text proves you wrong.
Steve, the text hasn’t proven me wrong. You keep talking about my dogmatic agenda, yet I’ve done nothing but present the facts.
ἐπουράνιοι adjective normal nominative masculine plural no degree from
ἐπουράνιος
[LN]
ἐπουράνιος ον (a) in the sky 1.8 ( B) heavenly 1.12 © from God 12.17 (1) σῶμα ἐπουράνιον heavenly body 1.26 (2) τὰ πνευματικὰ τῆς πονηρίας ἐν τοῖς ἐπουρανίοις supernatural powers 12.44
Greek Adjectives
Learning the
Greek Adjectives is very important because its structure is used in every day conversation. The more you practice the subject, the closer you get to mastering the Greek language. But first we need to know what the role of Adjectives is in the structure of the grammar in Greek.
Greek Adjectives are words that describe or modify another person or thing in the sentence.
http://mylanguages.o..._adjectives.php This is the first sight I opened.
Butch5, on 13 February 2012 - 06:27 PM, said:
This quote from Papias is from a fragment. How can one determine context from a fragment?...
Steve---The Papias documents are fragments, but we have the full sentences and context of his statements. Papias says in full:
“As the presbyters say, then those who are deemed worthy of an abode in heaven shall go there, others shall enjoy the delights of Paradise, and others shall possess the splendor of the city; for everywhere the Savior will be seen, according as they shall be worthy who see Him. But that there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce an hundredfold, and that of those who produce sixty-fold, and that of those who produce thirty-fold; for the first will be taken up into the heavens, the second class will dwell in Paradise, and the last will inhabit the city; and that on this account the Lord said, "In my Father's house are many mansions:" for all things belong to God, who supplies all with a suitable dwelling-place, even as His word says, that a share is given to all by the Father, according as each one is or shall be worthy. And this is the couch in which they shall recline who feast, being invited to the wedding.”
“The presbyters, the disciples of the apostles, say that this is the gradation and arrangement of those who are saved, and that they advance through steps of this nature; and that, moreover, they ascend through the Spirit to the Son, and through the Son to the Father; and that in due time the Son will yield up His work to the Father, even as it is said by the apostle, "For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.”
This same argument for these same scriptures is used by the fathers right up to Augustine. You are misunderstanding and misquoting the Fathers. Read the Shepherd of Hermas, written at the same time as Papias, or before... Read Clement's letters... Not Clement of Alexandria; Clement who was Peter and Paul's companion... or have you not read his many books?
Steve, It’s still a fragment. Do you see what he is saying? Some will abide in heaven, some in Paradise and some in the city. Where does Scripture teach any such thing? Paradise which most if not all of the fathers place in Hades will be cast into the Lake of Fire. Do you really suppose that believers will be cast into the Lake of Fire? He said some will in heaven, yet there is not a single verse of Scripture that states that. I’m not trashing Papias because I think his work may have been excellent and I saddened that we don’t have access to it. However I wonder what the context of that fragment is.
Are you suggesting that it will be as Papias says, some will go to heaven, others to Paradise and still others to the earthly kingdom?
Steve---Again, Papias does not say "earthly kingdom", these are your words added to the text.
OK, I used the words earthly kingdom. He did say the city, however, the apostle John said, I saw that holy city descend out of heaven, he also said, God will dwell with men. From those statements I think one can make the connection that the city will be on earth.
Butch5, on 13 February 2012 - 06:27 PM, said:
We’ve already discussed Origen, he isn’t in agreement with the earlier writers...
Steve---This is again not true. If you had read Origen you would know how orthodox he really is. Relying on a text that was manipulated by his enemies is doing the bidding of gnostics. You are guilty of this, not Origen.
Steve, you’ve claimed that some of Origen’s writings were corrupted. If that is so, how do you know that it is the passage I quoted that is corrupted and not the passage that you quoted? Since you’ve presented that idea that Origen’s writings were corrupted could please supply some evidence to that effect and show that the passage I quoted was corrupted and the one you quoted wasn’t?
Butch5, on 13 February 2012 - 06:27 PM, said:
Yes, it gives that quality of the bodies, heavenly. It isn’t telling where those bodies are...
Steve---Why would we be given "heavenly bodies" that are not for heaven? This position is illogical.
It’s not illogical at all when we consider that heavenly is an adjective. My Bible is a heavenly book, that doesn’t mean it is in or will go to heaven. Heavenly is descriptive and give the qualities of the body. They are not earthly qualities such as those we have now being subject to death, aging, disease, pain, and so on. They are heavenly qualities, such as everlasting life, no pain, no sadness, no need to reproduce and the like.
What’s not logical is why one would need a body to live in heaven. If as you suggest the spirit goes to heaven it seems there is no need of a body there, so there would be no need for a resurrected body. However, to live in this creation one does have need of a body. If as Paul said, the Christians hope is the eternal land promise made to Abraham, then the Christian would be in need of a resurrected body.
Butch5, on 13 February 2012 - 06:27 PM, said:
Jesus was raised in the same body that went into the grave...
Steve, you didn’t quote the entire statement. I also said that body had put on incorruption and glory.
[sup]KJV [/sup]
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Butch5, on 13 February 2012 - 06:27 PM, said:
Steve,
You posted a few verses from the ECF's and that with no context. I showed where Paul teaches that the Christian's "Anchor of the Soul" is the eternal land promise to Abraham. I showed where Irenaeus agreed with that. I showed that Justin agreed with that.
Steve---You have not shown anything. You have quoted Justin out of context; and you have found Irenaues preaching about paradise. You've got nothing!
Come on Steve. I thought you were willing to discuss the issue. I gave Paul’s teaching on the promise to Abraham, both Irenaeus and Justin agreed. You can’t keep saying I’ve quoted the ECF’s out of context without at least showing how you believe I’ve done so.
Butch5, on 13 February 2012 - 06:27 PM, said:
In addition to that I've asked repeatedly for Scripture of Jesus or the apostles teaching that Christians go to heaven when they die and no one has presented any.
Steve---I believe you have misread the scriptures to suit your own dogmas, similar to Jehovah's Witnesses. No amount of scriptures will convince you; you have developed a fixed mindset. I am very sorry that this is the case. If you truly did your research, instead of repeating Tim Warners teaching, you would arrive at a completely different understanding. I hope you do this; you have all the right tools, but you refuse to use them properly.
Steve, this is the third time I’ve had to speak of the ad hominems. You say no amount of Scripture will convince me, that’s not so Steve, I’m very logical and will listen, the problem is that you haven’t presented Scripture that backs up what you’re saying. Instead you just telling me I’m wrong, misquoting the ECF’s and following someone else’s teaching. You said you were willing to discuss the issue, OK, maybe we can start with teaching showing where Jesus or the apostles taught that Christians go to heaven.
You’ve mentioned Dogmas several times now, Steve, I don’t think it’s me who has the Dogma. What I’ve said can be plainly seen in the Scripture. Paul said the Christians “Anchor of the Soul” was the promises made to Abraham, not to go to heaven.
