What would you do if …

[PS95]

Alright. That was a peculiar conversation you initiated. I also have nothing further to discuss with you at this point.

It wasn't peculiar to you at all. You knew exactly why I asked that. I will refresh your memory just in case. You say that Jesus was an "it' before coming to earth from heaven. we know Jesus remembered being in heaven with His Father.
THAT is why I asked you how an IT has a memory.

And sorry Matt, your answer was just plain silliness. computers don't have memories- they are programmed by humans to retrieve data. Garbage in, garbage out.

 

[Matthias]

It wasn't peculiar to you at all. You knew exactly why I asked that. I will refresh your memory just in case. You say that Jesus was an "it' before coming to earth from heaven.

That is false. I don’t say anything of the sort. In my Christology, Jesus is brought into existence by God when he is supernaturally begotten by God in the womb of the virgin.

we know Jesus remembered being in heaven with His Father.
THAT is why I asked you how an IT has a memory.

And sorry Matt, your answer was just plain silliness. computers don't have memories- they are programmed by humans to retrieve data. Garbage in, garbage out.

Be a man of your word. You said you had nothing further you can say to me and within minutes you do.

 

[PS95]

That is false. I don’t say anything of the sort. In my Christology, Jesus is brought into existence by God when he is supernaturally begotten by God in the womb of the virgin.

Correct me if I am wrong here- You said the Word (logos) was an it. So when the Word became flesh an it- became flesh.
God put the IT into Mary?
which is why I asked you how an IT has a memory.

Or is it now that you are like a Christadelphian who denies that Jesus is the Word Of God who became flesh. ?

Or like a JW- God created an angel whose " impersonal life force" was put into Mary's ovum- but Jesus was only a human and that life force went back to heaven at the cross so the angel had to be re-created, but Jesus died and is still dead and His body did not rise..
this "impersonal life force" sounds like an IT to me.

Be a man of your word. You said you had nothing further you can say to me and within minutes you do.

Changed my mind. Hope that's ok.

 

[Matthias]

Correct me if I am wrong here- You said the Word (logos) was an it.

That’s right.

So when the Word became flesh an it- became flesh.
God put the IT into Mary?
which is why I asked you how an IT has a memory.

No. God supernaturally created a human person, whom God knew only in his foreknowledge, in Mary.

I have never said, nor have I ever believed, that Jesus was an “it”. [Added to make it clear to my readers.]

Or is it now that you are like a Christadelphian who denies that Jesus is the Word Of God who became flesh. ?

I’m not a Christadelphian. I’m a Jewish monotheist.

Or like a JW- God created an angel whose " impersonal life force" was put into Mary's ovum- but Jesus was only a human and that life force went back to heaven at the cross so the angel had to be re-created, but Jesus died and is still dead and His body did not rise..
this "impersonal life force" sounds like an IT to me.

I’m not a JW. I’m a Jewish monotheist.

Changed my mind. Hope that's ok.

It isn’t okay in this thread. You’ve taken this thread far off topic.

 

[PS95]

That’s right.

No. God supernaturally created a human person, whom God knew only in his foreknowledge, in Mary.
I’m not a Christadelphian. I’m a Jewish monotheist.
I’m not a JW. I’m a Jewish monotheist.
It isn’t okay in this thread. You’ve taken this thread far off topic.

Matt, Are you a Jewish Monotheist?! No kidding!
Off topic? I thought your topic here was to lambast David. I think he's done. I know I would be If I were him.
Seems you baited him to try to make him look bad. Not nice. Jws attacked him also. Surprise surprise.
--A thing or an IT does not recall relationships.-- Jesus did. That did it for me. Been there, done that.
Either way- you have a good rest of the night.

 

[Matthias]

Matt, Are you a Jewish Monotheist?! No kidding!

I’m going to drive that point home so hard that no one who hears me will ever forget it.

Off topic? I thought your topic here was to lambast David.

Then you need to read the OP again.

I think he's done. I know I would be If I were him.

He publicly commented that he has placed me on ignore.

Seems you baited him to try to make him look bad.

I didn’t.

Not nice. Jws attacked him also. Surprise surprise.

I’m not a JW. I don’t know what you’re talking about. The only posts of his that I’ve read were made either in threads which I started or, possibly - but I don’t think so, in threads someone else started in the forums which I’m voluntarily restricted to by my choice of registration.

--A thing or an IT does not recall relationships.-- Jesus did.

Jesus was a mortal human person. He is now an immortal human person. He is not an it.

That did it for me. Been there, done that.

I don’t know where you’ve been, nor do I know what you’ve done. If wanted to know I would ask you.

Either way- you have a good rest of the night.

Good night.

 

[Wick Stick]

An interesting question from my X / Twitter “For you” feed today.

“What would you do if your pastor began to teach heresy?”

(Frank Turek)

https://x.com/drfrankturek/status/1911373801411195022?s=61

It really depends what it is. I've bit my tongue through a sermon plenty of times. I've never heard anything from a pulpit yet that was so drastically terrible that it required me to immediately object. Ultimately, talk IS cheap.

I left churches twice now because a pastor did bad things and the church didn't deal with it openly and honestly. Actions speak louder than words.

 

[Matthias]

It really depends what it is. I've bit my tongue through a sermon plenty of times. I've never heard anything from a pulpit yet that was so drastically terrible that it required me to immediately object.

I have and I did.

Ultimately, talk IS cheap.

That hasn’t been my personal experience. For me, talk has been very expensive. It has cost me dearly, and in multiple ways. I’ve lost family, friends, jobs, raises and more for letting it be known that I’m a ... well, I’ll make an exception this morning from repeating what I am.

What I’ve gained counts more to me than all that I’ve lost.

I left churches twice now because a pastor did bad things and the church didn't deal with it openly and honestly.

I don’t know the details of the situations you’re alluding to, and don’t want to know, but it sounds like the leadership didn’t follow Paul’s instructions for handling matters of that sort. If I had been in your place, I might very well have made the same decision that you did.

Actions speak louder than words.

I’ve observed that actions without words speak loudly but not clearly.

 

[Wick Stick]

That hasn’t been my personal experience. For me, talk has been very expensive. It has cost me dearly, and in multiple ways. I’ve lost family, friends, jobs, raises and more for letting it be known that I’m a ... well, I’ll make an exception this morning from repeating what I am.

What I’ve gained counts more to me than all that I’ve lost.

Story time?

I was once asked to give a Sunday-night sermon at a church I attended. I gave what I thought was a fairly innocuous lesson out of the epistles to the churches of Asia Minor in the early chapters of Revelation. Afterwards, the pastor was... well, furious... that I had given the interpretation of several symbols in those chapters. Apparently the church taught a fully literal Revelation, and I had undermined that. I was asked not to come back.

That being so, I didn't count it a loss. The pastor was a good and well-intentioned man, and his priority was protecting his flock. Like... I wasn't even mad. I understood. It was a small sadness, but clearly I wasn't in the right place anyway.

Yeah... that's my story about talk being a problem.

I’ve observed that actions without words speak loudly but not clearly.

I always find actions to be pretty clear. The trick is to IGNORE the words that try to rationalize them.

 

[Nathaniel]

An interesting question from my X / Twitter “For you” feed today.

“What would you do if your pastor began to teach heresy?”

(Frank Turek)

https://x.com/drfrankturek/status/1911373801411195022?s=61

Ha ha, is this some type of trick question?
I don't have a pastor brother, I have a Savior and Lord.

 

[Matthias]

Ha ha, is this some type of trick question?

No. Dr. Turek is a serious Christian apologist.

Frank Turek - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Welcome to the forum.

I don't have a pastor brother, I have a Savior and Lord.

Jesus, through the apostle, gave the church pastors. Why don’t you have a pastor?

 

[Nathaniel]

No.

Welcome to the forum.



Jesus, through the apostle, gave the church pastors. Why don’t you have a pastor?

11Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. 12For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Simply put.
Because I don't require one.
I have the Father, the Spirit, the Lord Jesus Christ, and His Holy Word.

As well as an extensive library of books written by some of the most Godly and learned men who ever lived.

I do listen to quite a bit of teaching along with doing my own studies.

And I've been to many churches through the years. The majority of them were little more than social clubs. I have no interest in sitting through yet another rock concert followed by a pep talk.

I also live in a remote area and there just aren't that many places of fellowship to choose from.

Do I desires fellowship? Of course I do. Do I need it, absolutely. Have I sought for it, most assuredly, it's probably why I'm here. Have I found it? Ha ha. Look around the forum my brother. It's a microcosm of modern day "christianity", and it leaves much to be desired.

 

[Matthias]

“What would you do if …”

Every pacifist is sooner or later confronted with the stacked deck question.

”Pacifists have rightly been accused of oversimplifying issues. However, there is a feeling in peace circles that neither side possesses a monopoly on oversimplification. Non pacifists ask: ‘What would happen if someone attacked your grandmother?’ It is assumed that normal people would protect their grandmothers. If the pacifist then can be forced to say that he or she is normal, red-blooded American, the assumption is that the case for pacifism comes tumbling down.

The questions and problems regarding pacifism are more involved than that. Folk musician Joan Baez makes this point beautifully in an excerpt from her autobiography. … Persons who have encountered the typical barrage of questions from draft board members, judges, Sunday school class members, bull session participants, and others will appreciate her satirical treatment titled, ‘What Would You Do If?’:

’Okay, you’re a pacifist. What would you do if someone were, say, attacking your grandmother?’

’Attacking my poor old grandmother?’

’Yeah. You’re in a room with your grandmother, and there’s this guy about to attack her, and you’re standing there. What would you do?’

‘I’d yell, Three cheers for Grandma! and leave the room.’

’No, seriously. Say he had a gun and he was about to shoot her. Would you shoot him first?’

’Do I have a gun?’

’Yes.’

’No. I’m a pacifist, I don’t have a gun.’

’Well, say you do.‘

’All right. Am I a good shot?’

’Yes.’

’I’d shoot the gun out of his hand.’

’No, then you’re not a good shot.’

’I’d be afraid to shoot. Might kill Grandma.’”

(Dale W. Brown, Biblical Pacifism, pp. 159-160)

The story continues in my next post.

 

[Matthias]

“‘Come on. OK, look. We’ll take another example. Say you’re driving a truck. You’re on a narrow road with a sheer cliff on your side. There’s a little girl standing in the middle of this road. You’re going too fast to stop. What would you do?’

’I don’t know. What would you do?’

’I’m asking you. You’re the pacifist.’

‘Yes, I know. All right, am I in control of the truck?’

’Yes.’

’How about if I honk my horn so she can get out of the way?’

’She’s too young to walk. And the horn doesn’t work.’

’I swerve around to the left of her, since she’s not going anywhere.’

’No, there’s been a landslide.’

’Oh. Well, then. I would try to drive the truck over the cliff and save the little girl.’

Silence.

’Well, say there’s someone else in the truck with you. Then what?’

’What’s my decision have to do with me being a pacifist?’

’There’s two of you in the truck and only one little girl.’

’Someone once said, If you have a choice between a real evil and a hypothetical evil, always take the hypothetical one.’

’Huh?’

’I said why are you so anxious to kill off all of the pacifists?’

’I’m not. I just want to know what you’d do if -‘

’If I was with a friend in a truck driving very fast on a one-lane road approaching a dangerous impasse where a ten-month old girl is sitting in the middle of the road with a landslide on one side of her and a sheer drop-off on the other.’

’That’s right.’

’I would probably slam on the brakes, thus sending my friend through the front windshield, skid into the landslide, run over the little girl, sail off the cliff and plunge to my own death. No doubt Grandma‘s house would be at the bottom of the ravine and the truck would crash through her roof and blow up in her living room where she was finally being attacked for the first, and last, time.’ (Joan Baez, ‘What Would You Do If?’ from Daybreak, 131-34.)”

(Ibid., pp. 160-161)

 

[Matthias]

“In this parody Joan Baez points to some fundamental assumptions. One is that no one knows exactly what he or she will do in moments of crisis. Such experiences often bring out the worst. Crisis situations also may bring out the noblest and best Christian response. Joan is also making the point that hypothetical questions deserve hypothetical answers, for hypothetical questions are set up in such a way as to manipulate the outcome. In the above case the hypothetical situation made it impossible for the pacifist to avoid killing one or more persons. Hypothetical alternatives are needed to demonstrate that the game can work both ways.

For example, you arrive suddenly on a terrible scene. A group of children are playing. A man is pointing a gun in their direction. If you shoot him, you will save the children. If you fail, you may be responsible for their death. You shoot. The man is dead. As long as it is hypothetical, however, why not add a bit more? Coming up the hill is a ferocious bear that the man could see and you could not. He was actually trying to shoot the bear in order to save the children. Since you shot and killed him, however, the bear mauls several children to their death. Tragically, you only had one shot.

Baez also illustrates the flaw of all hypothetical tests - namely, that different presuppositions tend to predispose the outcome.”

(Ibid., pp. 161-162)

 

[Matthias]

Whether you’re a pacifist or not, I highly recommend this book to all of my readers.

Too many people know too little about the historic peace churches.