What's Required For Staying In Heaven?

[Webers_Home]

I don't think we will have "human nature" in God's kingdom.

I cannot speak for the "we" of course; but speaking for myself; according to
Col 2:11, and 2Pet 1:3-4, I will have divine nature in heaven rather than
human nature.

Neither being born again . . . means that we will never fall.

Haven't the "we" for whom you speak ever wondered why the Lord testified
that the Spirit birth is a must rather than an option? Well; I should think
that the answer to that is obvious: it's to ensure that the Lord's sheep
never, ever fall into apostasy. They might fall into a lot of other things; but
not that-- the reason being that according to 1John 3:9, God's seed remains
in Spirit-born Christians. What's the odds of God falling into apostasy? Zero.
Well then the odds of His seed falling into apostasy are zero too. Bottom line
is: the only hope that anybody has of enduring to the end is the Spirit birth
about which the Lord spoke at John 3:3-8.

Buen Camino
/

 

[UppsalaDragby]

Haven't the "we" for whom you speak ever wondered why the Lord testified
that the Spirit birth is a must rather than an option? Well; I should think
that the answer to that is obvious: it's to ensure that the Lord's sheep
never, ever fall into apostasy. They might fall into a lot of other things; but
not that-- the reason being that according to 1John 3:9, God's seed remains
in Spirit-born Christians. What's the odds of God falling into apostasy? Zero.
Well then the odds of His seed falling into apostasy are zero too. Bottom line
is: the only hope that anybody has of enduring to the end is the Spirit birth
about which the Lord spoke at John 3:3-8.

Buen Camino
/

It's a bit funny that you quote John in an attempt to refute my comment, when John himself points out that "we" can fall, and you even admit that "they" might fall into "a lot of things", which agrees with the comment you are trying to refute.

And who said that God's "seed" falls into apostasy, or that someone who is born again will go on sinning?

Someone who is born again will obviously heed the warnings given in scripture and perservere to the end, don't you think?

Now in the OP you asked how we can be confident that we will not be booted out due to sin, to which I pointed out that we will not be the same as we are today. Even John testifies to this:

"Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is."

If we will be like him then we obvously won't be "prone to conceit, deceit, dissembling, subterfuge, fraud, vanity, fault-finding, narcissism, greed, envy, resentment, rivalry, quarreling, getting even, chafing, confrontation, demeaning comments, ridicule, cold shouldering, name calling, heckling, recriminations, toxic rejoinders, sarcasm, thoughtless remarks, haughtiness, snobbery, elitism, condescension, selfishness, egotism, gender bias, gossip, sniping, rebellion, insolence, and any number of other negative attitudes and behaviors common to human nature."

So have I answered your question or not?

 

[Webers_Home]

"Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been
made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall
see him as he is."

If we will be like him then we obvously won't be "prone to ec, etc, et al.

Seeing Christ as he is, and being like him; speaks of his body rather
than his personality. You see; his personality has been made known;
so that aspect of his existence can be ruled out of the verse you quoted.

So have I answered your question or not?

Not. But don't feel bad: lots of other people fail to understand the primary
purpose of the supernatural birth about which the Lord spoke at John 3:3-8.
You're not alone.

Buen Camino
/

 

[FHII]

It's a bit funny that you quote John in an attempt to refute my comment, when John himself points out that "we" can fall, and you even admit that "they" might fall into "a lot of things", which agrees with the comment you are trying to refute.

And who said that God's "seed" falls into apostasy, or that someone who is born again will go on sinning?

Someone who is born again will obviously heed the warnings given in scripture and perservere to the end, don't you think?

Now in the OP you asked how we can be confident that we will not be booted out due to sin, to which I pointed out that we will not be the same as we are today. Even John testifies to this:

"Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is."

If we will be like him then we obvously won't be "prone to conceit, deceit, dissembling, subterfuge, fraud, vanity, fault-finding, narcissism, greed, envy, resentment, rivalry, quarreling, getting even, chafing, confrontation, demeaning comments, ridicule, cold shouldering, name calling, heckling, recriminations, toxic rejoinders, sarcasm, thoughtless remarks, haughtiness, snobbery, elitism, condescension, selfishness, egotism, gender bias, gossip, sniping, rebellion, insolence, and any number of other negative attitudes and behaviors common to human nature."

So have I answered your question or not?

That's pretty interesting because I was thinking the same thing, yet from a different set of verses.... I was thinking of Rev 21:4 and verses after that when Jesus said all things would be made new and that former things would be passed away.

Job said that bone and sinew fenced him in, and Paul explained through many verses that because we are in the flesh, we are sinners. When I am freed from this flesh (and faith says I am RIGHT NOW, not in the future, because I am in heavenly places NOW) I can't believe I will have the sins of the flesh. No flesh = no sins of the flesh.

It's kind of weird... People think when they go to heaven, they are going to get a new (physical) body, yet they think their mindset will be the same. So they try to perfect their mindset by perfecting their flesh. I kind of understand.... They are trying to perfect the flesh and put it under subjection. I'm trying to do the same, but it's all in vain. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul said we wrestle not against the flesh. Yet, why do people wrestle? I don't try to sin in the flesh, but I also don't try not to.... I don't even enter into the circle and put my foot on the red or green line (if there are any former wrestlers here, they understand what I'm talking about).

 

[UppsalaDragby]

Seeing Christ as he is, and being like him; speaks of his body rather
than his personality. You see; his personality has been made known;
so that aspect of his existence can be ruled out of the verse you quoted.

"Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known."

Not. But don't feel bad: lots of other people fail to understand the primary
purpose of the supernatural birth about which the Lord spoke at John 3:3-8.
You're not alone.

I don't feel bad. I have confronted plenty of people who boast about their superior understanding before and I have learned to deal with it. John 3:3-8 does not cause a problem for me, because I realize that one needs to remain "in Christ" in order to be considered a new creation. If you remain in Christ then you show that you have been born again. If you disown him, then he will disown you, it's as simple as that.

That's pretty interesting because I was thinking the same thing, yet from a different set of verses.... I was thinking of Rev 21:4 and verses after that when Jesus said all things would be made new and that former things would be passed away.

Job said that bone and sinew fenced him in, and Paul explained through many verses that because we are in the flesh, we are sinners. When I am freed from this flesh (and faith says I am RIGHT NOW, not in the future, because I am in heavenly places NOW) I can't believe I will have the sins of the flesh. No flesh = no sins of the flesh.

It's kind of weird... People think when they go to heaven, they are going to get a new (physical) body, yet they think their mindset will be the same. So they try to perfect their mindset by perfecting their flesh. I kind of understand.... They are trying to perfect the flesh and put it under subjection. I'm trying to do the same, but it's all in vain. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul said we wrestle not against the flesh. Yet, why do people wrestle? I don't try to sin in the flesh, but I also don't try not to.... I don't even enter into the circle and put my foot on the red or green line (if there are any former wrestlers here, they understand what I'm talking about).

Very, very good points my friend. I have come to the same understanding. Struggling with the flesh is focusing on the wrong thing. We can only fight sin by fixing our eyes on Jesus - the author and perfecter of our faith. We either have confidence in the flesh - i.e. in our ability to restrain sin, or confidence in what Christ can do within us. My hope is that by turning to Jesus on a daily basis it will transform me inside and out.

Hope is a little underrated, but it is actually a prerequisite for faith since "faith is being sure of what we hope for". Our hope is that we will receive new resurrection bodies, not simply because our old bodies are wearing out and dying, but because they have been corrupted and sinful. And what does John say about this in connection with the verse I quoted earlier on:

"Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure."

No one is purified simply by hoping for a new body. Something much more powerful than that is scheduled to happen.

 

[Webers_Home]

.
†. 1John 4:17 . . as He is, so also are we in this world.

That verse appears to contradict the one below.

†. 1John 3:2 . . Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not
appeared as yet what we shall be. We know that, when he appears, we shall
be like him, because we shall see him just as he is.

The trick is: 1John 4:17 is speaking of Christ's personality; which the "we" are
supposed to have already rather than looking forward to obtaining.

1John 3:2 is speaking of his body; which is a body that the "we" expect to
obtain some day.

†. 1John 3:3a . . Everyone who has this hope in him

The koiné Greek word for "hope" in that statement is elpis (el-pece') which
means to anticipate, usually with pleasure); expectation (abstractly or
concretely) or confidence.

Anticipation isn't a cross-your-fingers kind of hope; nor a wishful-thinking
kind of hope. No, not even close. Anticipation expects to obtain the thing
it looks forward to. In other words: anticipation is 110% confident that the
thing it looks forward to is already on the way; viz: elpis is an in-the-bag
kind of hope.

Obviously then, the anti-OSAS crowd cannot possibly have elpis seeing as
how they haven't a clue one way or the other whether they will succeed in
obtaining a body like Christ's.

Elpis is a purifying hope.

†. 1John 3:3b . . purifies himself, just as he is pure.

The reason elpis is purifying is because it's a calling.

†. Eph 4:4 . .You were called in one hope of your calling

Bottom line is: people lacking elpis are toxic because they haven't been
called; and since they haven't been called; then according to Rom 8:30,
neither have they been justified nor been glorified.

Buen Camino
/

 

[UppsalaDragby]

Weber, I think that what you need to acknowledge is that God is not quite as dogmatic with isolated verses as you tend to be. First you try to use one verse dogmatically to refute my comment, although it obviously even refutes your own, and now you try to harmonize 1John 4:17 with 1John 3:2. perhaps assuming that your opinion is proof of "understanding" scripture?

If I was you I would try to harmonize not only the things that you think support your view, but even those that do not support it. Maybe you should read what John wrote about the importance of remaining in Christ (such as 1John 3:9) before trying to insult others. Someone who is urged to remain in Christ would obviously have been IN Christ to start with.

I also think you should also be a little bit careful about pointing an accusing finger towards others and question their calling. You know absolutely nothing about me and why I became a Christian, and if you truly are someone who is "called" and even "born again" then I think you need to show a quite a different attitude than you are displaying here.

 

[horsecamp]

.
According to the anti-OSAS faction, it's possible lose one's salvation.

That faction of course would be Jesus.. since he warns us about ship wreaking our faith..
and then tells us their were some that believed in him for a while but in the time of testing fell away..

now to answer your question ..

Jesus also comforts us when we realize our sins and repent .. and then worry about our salvation .. Jesus reminds us no one can pluck us out of our Fathers hand and he who started a good work in us will see it all the way to heavens glories.


one reason Lutherans give for such contrary doctrines is because man has such a fickle and contrary heart were like a drunk person when we become proud and cocky and becoming more like the world around us taking our sweet and loving Jesus for granted we need to be warned we certainly can fall away and then when we repent and fall in love with our sweet and loving savior all over again never wanting to disappoint him..we begin to worry about our salvation So Christ comes to us from the other side assuring us we will never be plucked out of his fathers hand and that he will see the good work he started in us all the way to completion and so God keeps us who sway like drunks on the straight and narrow.

with contrary doctrines for our very contrary hearts..

 

[Webers_Home]

.
†. Eph 1:4-5 . . He chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world . .
having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself

What I'm gong to say next in regards to that passage is difficult to explain
without coming across as either an idolater or a blasphemer so bear with me
while I do my best to get through it.

When people go to the pound and adopt a dog or a cat and bring it home;
the animal doesn't have the status of a child in the home; no, it has the
status of a pet because dogs and cats aren't humans: they're beasts; which
is an entirely different kind of life than human life.

Well; if God were to adopt an ordinary human being as-is and bring it home,
it wouldn't have the status of a child in the home either because God is a
divine being whereas humans are natural beings: which is an entirely
different kind of life than that of a divine being. In other words: proper
adoptions are limited to beings of like kind; viz: human kind with human
kind, and divine kind with divine kind.

Well; according to 2Pet 1:2-4, born-again Christians have been made
partakers of the divine nature. This doesn't make them Gods; it only makes
them suitable for adoption as a child in God's home rather than a pet. The
divine nature spoken of in 2Pet 1:4, is the "seed" spoken of in 1John 3:9,
which states:

"Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him;
and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

This is one of the supernatural elements in Christianity that outsiders hear
very little about. But I'm pretty sure you can see right off that even if people
were to somehow manage to endure to the end, they would still fail to be
adopted as a child in God's home sans the divine nature about which Peter
wrote.

Buen Camino
/

 

[marksman]

.
According to the anti-OSAS faction, it's possible lose one's salvation. So
then, wouldn't how to stay in heaven be a far more important question to
ask than how to get there? Buen Camino/

My recipe for this is to be so heaveny minded you will be of no earthly use.