What's with this thing called THE APOCRYPHA?

[GodsGrace]

@BreadOfLife
You've put a lot of work into the above.
It's my understanding that 7 books were
removed from the Protestant bible at the
Reformation.

It's history....but you're posting a lot of info.

 

[BreadOfLife]

@BreadOfLife
You've put a lot of work into the above.
It's my understanding that 7 books were removed from the Protestant bible at the Reformation.

It's history....but you're posting a lot of info.

I wouldn't even say that PROTESTANTS removed the 7 Books and parts of Esther and Daniel. They simply agreed with the editing that the POST Christ, POST-Temple Jews did instead of utilizing the entire canon that Jesus and the NT writers did. This is evident by the 200 or so references to these Books on the pages of the NT.

The quotes I presented in my last 2 posts simply show that anybody who claims that the Catholic Church "stole Luther's Bible" is LYING . . .

 

[GodsGrace]

I wouldn't even say that PROTESTANTS removed the 7 Books and parts of Esther and Daniel. They simply agreed with the editing that the POST Christ, POST-Temple Jews did instead of utilizing the entire canon that Jesus and the NT writers did. This is evident by the 200 or so references to these Books on the pages of the NT.

The quotes I presented in my last 2 posts simply show that anybody who claims that the Catholic Church "stole Luther's Bible" is LYING . . .

I haven't really been following.
What does "the catholic church stole luthers's bible" mean?

You mean the 7 books were removed by the JEWS?

 

[BreadOfLife]

I haven't really been following.
What does "the catholic church stole luthers's bible" mean?

You mean the 7 books were removed by the JEWS?

Nondenom40 idiotically claimed that the Catholic Church didn't declare the Canon of Scripture, but "stole" it from Martin Luther in the 16th century. This is a comically-ignorant statement.

THAT'S why I posted so much information from the Early Church Fathers quoting the Deuterocanonical Books as Scripture - to expose his asinine accusations and lies. A rudimentary study of history ALWAYS proves these uninformed anti-Catholics wrong . . .

As for WHO removed the Books and WHO declared the Canon of Scripture - I explained that in great detain in posts #27 and #40.

 

[GodsGrace]

Nondenom40 idiotically claimed that the Catholic Church didn't declare the Canon of Scripture, but "stole" it from Martin Luther in the 16th century. This is a comically-ignorant statement.

THAT'S why I posted so much information from the Early Church Fathers quoting the Deuterocanonical Books as Scripture - to expose his asinine accusations and lies. A rudimentary study of history ALWAYS proves these uninformed anti-Catholics wrong . . .

As for WHO removed the Books and WHO declared the Canon of Scripture - I explained that in great detain in posts #27 and #40.

Well, to my knowledge the catholic church put together the bible in about the 400's..maybe earlier.

The letters and gospels had been circulating but they were not all together in one book,,,the N.T.

Will be checking out post 27 and 40.

This is all a matter of history.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Well, to my knowledge the catholic church put together the bible in about the 400's..maybe earlier.
The letters and gospels had been circulating but they were not all together in one book,,,the N.T.
Will be checking out post 27 and 40.

This is all a matter of history.

Absolutely.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sorry - but WHO told you this nonsense??
It is historically bankrupt.

First of all - the 73 Book Canon of Scripture was declared at the Council of Rome in 382.

Secondly - Jerome never "rejected" the Deuterocanonical Books.
Jerome sought help from Jewish scholarship in his Latin Translation. It was the Jewish Scholars who rejected the Deuterocanonical Books - NOT Jerome. Jerome went on to refer to those Books as "Sacred Scripture" in his writings and debates.

Time for a Bible lesson . . .

- The Septuagint (Greek OT) was translated by 70 JEWISH (NOT Catholic) Scholars - about 200 years before the birth of Christ.
- There were 7 Books that were part of the OPEN Jewish Canon of the 1st Century (Baruch, Sirach, Wisdom, Tobit, Judith, 1 & 2 Maccabees) along with portions of Daniel and Esther.
- This is the Canon of Scripture that Jesus and the NT writers studied from - and they are referred to some 200 TIMES in the New Testament.

Now, pay attention because here's where it gets ugly . . .

AFTER Jesus died, rose and ascended to Heaven - the Apostles started their mission. Around the years 70 AD, Jerusalem was sacked by the Romans and the Temple was destroyed. SOME rabbis began to have second thoughts about the Deuterocanonical Books because of their "Hellenistic" influence in the Diaspora (Dispersed Jews). Around the year 135, during the 2nd Jewish Revolt - a leading rabbi at the rabbinical school in Jamnia named Akiva declared TWO things:

a. A man named Simon Bar Kokhba was the "real" messiah. He turned out to be a false messiah and Akiva was a false prophet.
b. The Deuterocanonical Books needed to be REMOVED from the OPEN Canon - and the canon closed.

SO - you Protestants adhere to a POST-Christ, POST-Temple OT Canon that was determined by a FALSE Prophet (Akiva) who declared a FALSE Christ (Kokhba)

Here's the worst part: the ONLY reason your Protestant Fathers chose to do this was to further-divorce themselves from the Catholic Church.

Declared by the Council of a cult religion.[/QUOTE]
You could not like Catholicism C,,,even though Jesus said the world will know His disciples because they love one another....

However, You CANNOT say that Catholicism is a cult.
It really serves no one to speak lies about the church that created the bible for us and if it wasn't for the catholic church there would be NO bible.

 

[bbyrd009]

Why don't you exegete those verses for us. Then define church and who comprises the church. Then show us the verse where anyone "in" the church is infallible. Christ is the head, we are the body. Your dancing around the issue.

I must have missed that post. All i've seen is your opinion.

ya, get used to that there lol

When are we gonna see those?

You might understand that as soon as bol disagrees with you, your point is generally seen to be verified here by most i think

 

[bbyrd009]

One practical outcome of this sixteenth-century debate was the production and circulation of authorized lists of books that were to be regarded as

Ah yes, the Lists lol. Anyone mention Paul's writings, all writings...thing yet, Willie? Although i doubt he would include any written after the emergence of Logic. Or at least many? Love to have this discussion...within our boundary stones sometime maybe, i mean the Hegelian thing is hard enough, but then to try and discuss anything like this with a diff religion, a Catholic iow, i dunno.
Nice op though, ty!

 

[Nondenom40]

Nondenom40 idiotically claimed that the Catholic Church didn't declare the Canon of Scripture, but "stole" it from Martin Luther in the 16th century. This is a comically-ignorant statement.

THAT'S why I posted so much information from the Early Church Fathers quoting the Deuterocanonical Books as Scripture - to expose his asinine accusations and lies. A rudimentary study of history ALWAYS proves these uninformed anti-Catholics wrong . . .

As for WHO removed the Books and WHO declared the Canon of Scripture - I explained that in great detain in posts #27 and #40.

Since youre unable to properly cite me or track my comments honestly. Consider this the end. If and when you think you can handle a discussion thats on topic and on point let me know.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Since youre unable to properly cite me or track my comments honestly. Consider this the end. If and when you think you can handle a discussion thats on topic and on point let me know.

I completely understand your frustration at being publicly spanked - historically-speaking, of course.

Your dishonesty is really astounding. You claim that I didn’t “properly cite” you when I claimed that YOU said the Catholic Church “stole” Luther’s Bible. I got that from YOU in posts #125 & #129, where you explicitly accuse the Church of “ripping off” Luther’s Canon of Scripture and “passing it off as their own”.

THIS is why I referred to your position as“idiocy” because the overwhelming proof of history is on MY side – as I AMPLY proved in posts 130, 138, 139 & 140.

YOUR mistake was showing up to a gun fight with a pea shooter . . .

 

[Nondenom40]

@BreadOfLife
You've put a lot of work into the above.
It's my understanding that 7 books were
removed from the Protestant bible at the
Reformation.

It's history....but you're posting a lot of info.

Whose bible? What edition, what year and what books? Cuz Luther removed nothing. Thats the only reason i'm asking.

 

[GodsGrace]

Whose bible? What edition, what year and what books? Cuz Luther removed nothing. Thats the only reason i'm asking.

The Catholic bibles I have in my possession,,,a few versions...have 73 books.
The Protestant bibles I have in my possission,,,a few versions,,,have 66 books.

Where did the other 7 go?

Didn't the Protestant movement remove them because they believed they were not canonical? Instead the Catholics kept the 7 books that the Jews had also rejected, at some point.

I'm not as knowledgeable about this as @BreadOfLife is.

 

[BreadOfLife]

The Catholic bibles I have in my possession,,,a few versions...have 73 books.
The Protestant bibles I have in my possission,,,a few versions,,,have 66 books.

Where did the other 7 go?

Didn't the Protestant movement remove them because they believed they were not canonical? Instead the Catholics kept the 7 books that the Jews had also rejected, at some point.

I'm not as knowledgeable about this as @BreadOfLife is.

Hi GG –

As I stated earlier – I explained in posts #29 and 40 what happened to the 7 Books that USED to be part of the OPENJ Canon during the time of Christ and up to the end of the first century.

A rabbinical school in Jamnia was convened to, among other things, discuss the matter of theCanon. The main proponent for removing the Seven Deuterocanonical Books was a Rabbi named Akiva. This is the SAME man who declared that a man named Simon Kokhbar was the “real” Messiah. We know this to be false, as Jesus was the Only Messiah.

So, Luther took HIS canon of Scripture from Akiva and the rabbinical school at Jamnia to further divorce himself from the Catholic Church. All of the Protestant Fathers followed suit and that is why your Protestant Bibles are thinner.
The Protestant OT Canon came from a FALSEprophet who declared aFALSE Christ.

There are some 200 references to the Deuterocanonical Books on the pages of the New Testament.

So, the REAL question is:
WHO said these Books were NOT inspired?

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi GG –

As I stated earlier – I explained in posts #29 and 40 what happened to the 7 Books that USED to be part of the OPENJ Canon during the time of Christ and up to the end of the first century.

A rabbinical school in Jamnia was convened to, among other things, discuss the matter of theCanon. The main proponent for removing the Seven Deuterocanonical Books was a Rabbi named Akiva. This is the SAME man who declared that a man named Simon Kokhbar was the “real” Messiah. We know this to be false, as Jesus was the Only Messiah.

So, Luther took HIS canon of Scripture from Akiva and the rabbinical school at Jamnia to further divorce himself from the Catholic Church. All of the Protestant Fathers followed suit and that is why your Protestant Bibles are thinner.
The Protestant OT Canon came from a FALSEprophet who declared aFALSE Christ.

There are some 200 references to the Deuterocanonical Books on the pages of the New Testament.

So, the REAL question is:
WHO said these Books were NOT inspired?

I guess it was Akiva...who didn't even know what he was declaring as to the Messiah!

And then the Protestants took advantage of the situation since they didn't like books like the Maccabees because it spoke of praying or talking, to the dead.

Right?

 

[aspen]

Apocrypha means hidden, and that group of books should have remained hidden. They were of doubtful origin, not inspired.

You mean like Hebrews, James, and Revelation?

 

[BreadOfLife]

I guess it was Akiva...who didn't even know what he was declaring as to the Messiah!

And then the Protestants took advantage of the situation since they didn't like books like the Maccabees because it spoke of praying or talking, to the dead.

Right?

Correct.

 

[Enoch111]

You mean like Hebrews, James, and Revelation?

If those three books were of doubtful origin, do you really think they would be found in our Bibles? We are talking about the so-called "Deutero-canonical books", but there is no second canon. There is only one canon of the Hebrew Tanakh which consists of 24 books (equivalent to our 39 books).

It was the translators of the corrupt Septuagint who added the apocryphal books to their Greek translation as follows: 3 Kings, 4 Kings, Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, Epistle of Jeremy, Prayer of Azarias, Susanna, Bel and the Dragon, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, 1 Esdras, Prayer of Manasses, 3 Maccabees, 4 Maccabees.

Out of these the Catholic Bibles selected some and the Orthodox Bibles selected some (not identical in each case).

 

[aspen]

If those three books were of doubtful origin, do you really think they would be found in our Bibles? We are talking about the so-called "Deutero-canonical books", but there is no second canon. There is only one canon of the Hebrew Tanakh which consists of 24 books (equivalent to our 39 books).

It was the translators of the corrupt Septuagint who added the apocryphal books to their Greek translation as follows: 3 Kings, 4 Kings, Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, Epistle of Jeremy, Prayer of Azarias, Susanna, Bel and the Dragon, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, 1 Esdras, Prayer of Manasses, 3 Maccabees, 4 Maccabees.

Out of these the Catholic Bibles selected some and the Orthodox Bibles selected some (not identical in each case).

Your Protestant Father, Martin Luther disagrees with you

 

[Enoch111]

Your Protestant Father, Martin Luther disagrees with you

1. I have no connection to Martin Luther or Protestantism. And I reject Reformed Theology.

2. Luther was clearly mistaken about many things, and we cannot trust everything he said or wrote. Some of the other Reformers disagreed with him also.

3. It was the Lord Jesus Christ Himself who confirmed and established the validity of the Hebrew canon since the time of Moses. Kindly read, study, and digest Luke 24. Then believe it.