What's with this thing called THE APOCRYPHA?

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BreadOfLife

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While the apostles were on earth, the churches throughout the Roman empire were (a) receiving their direct oral teachings, (b) receiving copies of their epistles which were to be circulated among all the churches, (c) as well as collecting the "Holy Scriptures" (the Tanakh whose canon was already established).

Peter wrote his second epistle around AD 68 in which he said that all of Paul's epistles (51% of the NT) were also Scripture. He also said that his own epistles were divinely inspired ("a more sure word of prophecy"). So how did Peter know of all of Paul's epistles unless he had personally read them? But he also indicates that others had read them. That tells us that Paul's epistles were already in circulation within the churches, and also that some were wresting those Scriptures. See 2 Peter 3.

By the end of the first century, the whole Bible had been completed. Before the end of the second century, there was a canon of the New Testament (the Muratori Canon), as well as a Syriac translation of the almost the whole Bible (known as the Peshitta). So how was the Peshitta put together unless the whole Bible was not already known and being read by the early Christians? While 5 or 6 of the NT books were called "disputed writings" (antilegomena) that was not meant as heretical or false, but simply uncertainty among some Christians whether they were canonical. Later on, those books were included. So it is a greatly exaggerated idea that the Bible was not complete for many centuries, and that the Catholic Church put the Bible together.

What is absolutely certain is that the Hebrew canon EXCLUDED the Apocrypha. Which means that there is no such thing as a Deutero-Canon. Even the Catholic scholar Jerome understood this when translating the Latin Vulgate.
HOGWASH.

The Hebrew canon was not closed until the SECOND century – AFTER Christ and AFTER the destruction of the Temple. However – DURING Christ’s lifetime – the canon was an OPEN one, that included the Deuterocanonical Books. We see this by the 200 or so references to those Books on the pages of the New Testament.

As for the New Testament Canon – there were MANY Books that were considered to be “inspired” Scripture and were read in churches for 300 years. It wasn’t until the Catholic Church declared the official Canon of Scripture that these Books ceased to be used as “inspired”. Among them were works like the Shepherd of Hermas, the Letter of Clement, the Epistles of Barnabas, the Gospel of Peter, etc.

- The Canon was declared by the Church at the Council of Rome in 382.

- It was reiterated at the Council of Hippo in 393.

- It was again reiterated at the Council of Carthage in 397.

- Back in post #130, I presented the actual text from the 2nd Council of Carthage, where the Canon was again reiterated.

You people refuse to accept the facts of history – no matter HOW much evidence you are buried with – and it’s pathetic . . .

As for Peter referring to Paul’s letters as “Scripture” – this is HARDLY evidence that the letters had been distributed among ALL of the churches if the time. Peter was simply making a statement about the fact that Paul, as part of the Magesterium was teaching under the guidance of the Holy Spirit – as they ALL were (John 16:12-15).
 
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amadeus

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I have one bible from 1816.
I've never really looked into it...I just keep it like a treasure.

All my other bibles are from 1975 and on...
purchased at all different times and all different versions.

My Italian bibles are from 2,000 and on and also about 3 different versions.
I must say that the Italian bible has SLIGHTLY changed after 2008 because the prior versions were translated from Latin and now they want to use the Greek.

It's not worth me buying any new version because the changes would make no difference to what I've been taught.

My reprint [a word for word facsimile] of the 1611 Kings James English Bible contains the extra books named Apocrypha [Deuterocanonical].

My 2011 KJV Holman English Bible does not.

My Reina Valera Revised Spanish in 1602 does not.

My 1960 Reina Valera Spanish Bible does not.

My Luther Translation German printed in 1822 contains the extra books named Apochcrypha [Deuterocanonical].

My Luther Translation German revised in 1967 does not.

My Luther Translation German revised in 1984 does not.
 
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GodsGrace

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My reprint [a word for word facsimile] of the 1611 Kings James English Bible contains the extra books named Apocrypha [Deuterocanonical].

My 2011 KJV Holman English Bible does not.

My Reina Valera Revised in 1602 does not.

My 1960 Reina Valera Spanish Bible does not.

My Luther Translation printed in 1822 contains the extra books named Apochcrypha [Deuterocanonical].

My Luther Translation revised in 1967 does not.

My Luther Translation revised in 1984 does not.
So what does this mean?
It seems like Protestantism couldn't really decide whether to leave them in or not.

OR

Each version did what they wanted..which is pretty much what Protestantism does today.

Instead the Catholic church follows what Rome wants done.
So they're also more decided in what to include in the bible.

Quite frankly, I've never studied this to this degree and am learning new things.

Comments?
 
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amadeus

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So what does this mean?
It seems like Protestantism couldn't really decide whether to leave them in or not.

OR

Each version did what they wanted..which is pretty much what Protestantism does today.

Instead the Catholic church follows what Rome wants done.
So they're also more decided in what to include in the bible.

Quite frankly, I've never studied this to this degree and am learning new things.

Comments?

Just so!
The original KJV English did include it as did the Luther German versions. The Spanish versions did not.
What does God say about it? I am careful not to guess!
 
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GodsGrace

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Just so!
The original KJV English did include it as did the Luther German versions. The Spanish versions did not.
What does God say about it? I am careful not to guess!
Thankfully God is loving, and merciful and just....
or we'd all be in trouble!

I like to keep my eyes on Jesus and not worry too much about stuff that has nothing to do with salvation.
 
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BreadOfLife

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Thankfully God is loving, and merciful and just....
or we'd all be in trouble!

I like to keep my eyes on Jesus and not worry too much about stuff that has nothing to do with salvation.
And since Jesus IS the Word, to edit it because of our personal dislikes is to reject HIM . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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Hmmm.
Never thought of it like this.
2 Tim. 3:16 tells us explicitly that ALL Scripture is Theopneustos (God-breathed).

What right do men have to edit HIS Word? That takes one HECK of a lot of arrogance.

I would NOT want to have to answer for that . . .
 

Enoch111

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The Hebrew canon was not closed until the SECOND century– AFTER Christ ...
The Hebrew canon was closed at the time that Christ Jesus came into the world (actually 200 years before His birth). All Christ's OT references were taken from the Tanakh, which He stated was (1) Torah (the Law), (2) Neviim (the Prophets), and (3) Ketuvim (the Psalms or Writings). A total of only 24 books. So you are off by 400 years!

Here is what the Jewish Encyclopedia says:
BIBLE CANON - JewishEncyclopedia.com

'In addition to the written evidence mentioned above, the circumstance that the Samaritans (who considered themselves Jews) accepted only the Pentateuch and part of Joshua is of great importance in determining the historical development of the canon. It brings out the momentous fact that a recognized canon of the Prophets did not exist in the middle of the fifth century B.C.; while, on the other hand, it is certain from Sirach (see § 6 of this article) that the prophetical canon was completed by 200 B.C. at the very latest.

Since Sirach considered prophecy as long since silenced, and had no recollection of any authoritative close of this canon, the view that the list of the Prophets was completed at least one hundred years before his time is very plausible. Consequently, the prophetical canon must have been closed, at the very latest, at the beginning of the era of the Seleucids. Zunz ("G. V." ed. i., p. 14) says with reason: "The holy books, containing the Law and the Prophets, must have been collected a few generations after Nehemiah. Their age extends back far beyond that epoch.

The decided predilection shown toward this part of the Biblical books, still visible in later times and in all religious institutions, must be explained by the fact that it had long been honored as the only surviving monument of the Jewish state at a time when the latter no longer existed, and other national writings, whether of earlier or later time, were attracting attention" (compare also ib. p. 33). Ryle ("Canon of the Old Testament," p. 123) assumes that the prophetical canon was completed during the high priesthood of Simon II. (219-199 B.C.).'
 

BreadOfLife

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The Hebrew canon was closed at the time that Christ Jesus came into the world (actually 200 years before His birth). All Christ's OT references were taken from the Tanakh, which He stated was (1) Torah (the Law), (2) Neviim (the Prophets), and (3) Ketuvim (the Psalms or Writings). A total of only 24 books. So you are off by 400 years!

Here is what the Jewish Encyclopedia says:
BIBLE CANON - JewishEncyclopedia.com

'In addition to the written evidence mentioned above, the circumstance that the Samaritans (who considered themselves Jews) accepted only the Pentateuch and part of Joshua is of great importance in determining the historical development of the canon. It brings out the momentous fact that a recognized canon of the Prophets did not exist in the middle of the fifth century B.C.; while, on the other hand, it is certain from Sirach (see § 6 of this article) that the prophetical canon was completed by 200 B.C. at the very latest.

Since Sirach considered prophecy as long since silenced, and had no recollection of any authoritative close of this canon, the view that the list of the Prophets was completed at least one hundred years before his time is very plausible. Consequently, the prophetical canon must have been closed, at the very latest, at the beginning of the era of the Seleucids. Zunz ("G. V." ed. i., p. 14) says with reason: "The holy books, containing the Law and the Prophets, must have been collected a few generations after Nehemiah. Their age extends back far beyond that epoch.

The decided predilection shown toward this part of the Biblical books, still visible in later times and in all religious institutions, must be explained by the fact that it had long been honored as the only surviving monument of the Jewish state at a time when the latter no longer existed, and other national writings, whether of earlier or later time, were attracting attention" (compare also ib. p. 33). Ryle ("Canon of the Old Testament," p. 123) assumes that the prophetical canon was completed during the high priesthood of Simon II. (219-199 B.C.).'
Ummmmm, for starters, the Jewish Encyclopedia is going to defend getting rid of the Deuterocanonical Books.

Also - the Jewish Encyclopedia is not going to explain why there are some 200 references to these Books on the pages of the New Testament.
Can YOU explain why this is so - because NONE of your fellow anti-Catholics have been able to do so.

Finally - your "evidence" above DOESN'T say that the Hebrew Canon was CLOSED by the first century. It simply states that the canon of Books was complete by then. BIG difference . . .
 

Enoch111

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Finally - your "evidence" above DOESN'T say that the Hebrew Canon was CLOSED by the first century. It simply states that the canon of Books was complete by then. BIG difference . . .
Not really. Complete in this case means closed. Again from the Jewish Encyclopedia:

§ III. Lists of Apocrypha; Classification.
The following is a brief descriptive catalogue of writings which have been at some time or in some quarters regarded as sacred scripture, but are not included in the Jewish (and Protestant) canon. For more particular information about these works, and for the literature, the reader is referred to the special articles on the books severally.

First, then, there are the books which are commonly found in the Greek and Latin Bibles, but are not included in the Hebrew canon, and are hence rejected by Protestants; to these, as has already been said, Protestants give the name "Apocrypha" specifically. These are (following the order and with the titles of the English translation): I Esdras; II Esdras; Tobit; Judith; The Rest of the Chapters of the Book of Esther; Wisdom of Solomon; Wisdom of Jesus, the Son of Sirach, or Ecclesiasticus; Baruch, with the Epistle of Jeremiah; Song of the Three Holy Children; History of Susanna; Destruction of Bel and the Dragon; Prayer of Manasses; I Maccabees; II Maccabees. These, with the exception of I, II (III, IV) Esdras and the Prayer of Manasses, are canonical in the Roman Church.

Since Christ and the apostles adhered strictly to the Hebrew canon, they did not accept any of the above a "Scripture". And that is exactly what Catholics should do.
 
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GodsGrace

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2 Tim. 3:16 tells us explicitly that ALL Scripture is Theopneustos (God-breathed).

What right do men have to edit HIS Word? That takes one HECK of a lot of arrogance.

I would NOT want to have to answer for that . . .
The above reminded me of marriage.
God created marriage
and mankind is editing it to suit his own needs.

I feel the same way.
How could man change what God created?
 

Nondenom40

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The above reminded me of marriage.
God created marriage
and mankind is editing it to suit his own needs.

I feel the same way.
How could man change what God created?
The point is, the apocrypha isn't from God, but man. What man did was raise those books to inspired status at trent. Thats adding to Gods word which is a no no.
 

GodsGrace

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The point is, the apocrypha isn't from God, but man. What man did was raise those books to inspired status at trent. Thats adding to Gods word which is a no no.
OK ND,
I really don't know enough about this, so, like I said, I can't really address this issue.

But let me ask you this:

Why is this so important to you?

It has nothing to do with our salvation.
 

Nondenom40

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OK ND,
I really don't know enough about this, so, like I said, I can't really address this issue.

But let me ask you this:

Why is this so important to you?

It has nothing to do with our salvation.
The catholic canon IS necessary for your salvation according to them. Its dogma. Gods inspired word is either the 66 books that we have or the 73 that they have. Can we hear our shepherds voice or not? And i don't mean to imply anything regarding you. Not my intention. Seemed that you were agreeing with bol on some things and i don't want to see people misled is all.

From a catholic website;
J. Salza: Knowing what books belong in the Bible is necessary for salvation because if we didn’t know what books were inspired, we would mix up the inspired books with the heretical books. This means we would have Bible teaching both truth and error, and this would be detrimental to our salvation. So knowing the canon with certainty is essential, and the Bible doesn’t reveal it to us. The Church did. This is the principle of causality: an effect is never greater than its cause. If the canon is infallible, then the Church who determined it is also infallible.

The necessity of knowing the Canon of Scripture - Scripture Catholic
This is of course false through and through but its what they believe.
 

GodsGrace

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The catholic canon IS necessary for your salvation according to them. Its dogma. Gods inspired word is either the 66 books that we have or the 73 that they have. Can we hear our shepherds voice or not? And i don't mean to imply anything regarding you. Not my intention. Seemed that you were agreeing with bol on some things and i don't want to see people misled is all.

From a catholic website;
This is of course false through and through but its what they believe.
Well, let me assure you ND, that not ALL catholic clergy agrees with what you've posted. The CC, its magesterium, does teach that we must believe all dogma....
I've NEVER heard spoken that we must believe that there are 73 books in the bible instead of 66. There is a solution if one doesn't...I should add.

I understand what you're saying about where the dogma comes from...and that's why it's important to know which books are accepted as canon.
However, this would be a little much to ask of catholics, the majority of whom are not too interested in doctrine or theology.

I agree with BOL on a lot of things because he's right on a lot of things.
I also think the CC has the right to believe and teach whatever they feel is right.
I think we Protestants have enough of our own disagreements to be concerned with the doctrine of other churches.

Personally, I don't believe this issue is worthy of all your time and energy.
BUT,,,it's always good to know a lot.

Thanks for the reply...
 

BreadOfLife

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Not really. Complete in this case means closed. Again from the Jewish Encyclopedia:

§ III. Lists of Apocrypha; Classification.
The following is a brief descriptive catalogue of writings which have been at some time or in some quarters regarded as sacred scripture, but are not included in the Jewish (and Protestant) canon. For more particular information about these works, and for the literature, the reader is referred to the special articles on the books severally.

First, then, there are the books which are commonly found in the Greek and Latin Bibles, but are not included in the Hebrew canon, and are hence rejected by Protestants; to these, as has already been said, Protestants give the name "Apocrypha" specifically. These are (following the order and with the titles of the English translation): I Esdras; II Esdras; Tobit; Judith; The Rest of the Chapters of the Book of Esther; Wisdom of Solomon; Wisdom of Jesus, the Son of Sirach, or Ecclesiasticus; Baruch, with the Epistle of Jeremiah; Song of the Three Holy Children; History of Susanna; Destruction of Bel and the Dragon; Prayer of Manasses; I Maccabees; II Maccabees. These, with the exception of I, II (III, IV) Esdras and the Prayer of Manasses, are canonical in the Roman Church.

Since Christ and the apostles adhered strictly to the Hebrew canon, they did not accept any of the above a "Scripture". And that is exactly what Catholics should do.
And once again – if you’re going to cite a Jewish source – then you’ll have to cite a pre-second centuryJewish source because prior to that – it was an OPEN CANON. I already know that they reject the Deuterocanonical Books – but they didn’t ALWAYS reject them.

As I pointed out – there are some 200 references to these Books on the pages of the New Testament– yet you insist that they are NOT Scripture Can you address this??

Can you address the following examples??
- Heb 11:35 – Paul teaches about the martyrdom of the mother and her sonsdescribed in 2 Macc. 7:1-42.

- Eph. 6:13-17 – in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows Wis. 5:17-20.

- Luke 1:52
– Mary’s magnificataddressing the mighty falling from their thrones and replaced by lowly follows Sirach 10:14.

- Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 – Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers.

Please don’t simply dodge these examples as ALL of your fellow anti-Catholics have done . .
 

Nondenom40

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Well, let me assure you ND, that not ALL catholic clergy agrees with what you've posted. The CC, its magesterium, does teach that we must believe all dogma....
I've NEVER heard spoken that we must believe that there are 73 books in the bible instead of 66. There is a solution if one doesn't...I should add.

I understand what you're saying about where the dogma comes from...and that's why it's important to know which books are accepted as canon.
However, this would be a little much to ask of catholics, the majority of whom are not too interested in doctrine or theology.

I agree with BOL on a lot of things because he's right on a lot of things.
I also think the CC has the right to believe and teach whatever they feel is right.
I think we Protestants have enough of our own disagreements to be concerned with the doctrine of other churches.

Personally, I don't believe this issue is worthy of all your time and energy.
BUT,,,it's always good to know a lot.

Thanks for the reply...
One last thing then from the council of trent; session 4
But if any one receive not, as sacred and canonical, the said books entire with all their parts, as they have been used to be read in the Catholic Church, and as they are contained in the old Latin vulgate edition; and knowingly and deliberately contemn the traditions aforesaid; let him be anathema.
Cursed by God are those that do not accept their 73 books. I reject their apocrypha yet i know i'm saved and know where i'm going. Have a good one.
 

GodsGrace

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One last thing then from the council of trent; session 4
Cursed by God are those that do not accept their 73 books. I reject their apocrypha yet i know i'm saved and know where i'm going. Have a good one.
I agree with you.
Trent was answering to the reformation.
 

BreadOfLife

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The point is, the apocrypha isn't from God, but man. What man did was raise those books to inspired status at trent. Thats adding to Gods word which is a no no.
No – the Deuterocanonical Books are the Word of GOD.

They are God-breathed, as ALL Scripture is (2 Tim. 3:16). As I pointed out – and a fact which YOU keep running from – there are some TWO HUNDRED references to these Books on the pages of the New Testament.

Explain the following:

- Heb 11:35 – Paul teaches about the martyrdom of the mother and her sons described in 2 Macc. 7:1-42.

- Eph. 6:13-17 – in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows Wis. 5:17-20.- Luke 1:52 – Mary’s magnificat addressing the mighty falling from their thrones and replaced by lowly follows Sirach 10:14. It

- Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 – Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers.