What's your definition of idolatry?

[Tex]

We would need a whole 'nother thread to discuss all those issues. I don't think that simple beliefs about Mary, that she was conceived immaculately, that she remained forever a virgin, or that she was coronated in heaven by God, are idolizing her, especially if we're using the model of Old Testament idolatry where objects, elements, or people are made into deities to be served and worshipped. I'm not dismissing all your objections, just trying to keep the discussion on focus.

My bad, I went totally off topic. I don't think those are reasons to call yall idolaters. Those are just my disagreements with your catechism. Sorry!

I'm also very interested in your estimation of the claim that the Catholic Church did away with the 2nd commandment. I think a very clear line should be drawn between Protestants who disagree with what Catholics actually believe and teach and those who make up strawmen to assail, claiming the Church effaced the prohibition against graven images made to be worshipped as gods. Anyone who makes untruthful claims like that should be rebuked.

Yall did not do away with the 2nd commandment. Saying anything else is setting up a strawman. The Romans have never taught anything other than worship of the Trinity.

Btw, I hope I'm not annoying you by steering clear of the phrase "Catholic Church". Many Romans believe that only members of their physical organization are part of the Church, and all others are not. The Church is the saved, and by calling your church the Catholic Church, I eliminate myself from salvation. It's not an insult, I simply am careful to emphasize that the Catholic Church is made up of more than a physical organization (even if the original). I call yall Romans because of your See. Not all Catholics are Romans and not all Romans are Catholics. Some Catholics are Lutheran, some Catholics are Anglican, some Catholics are unborn and don't know one from the other.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

We've been called worse...

 

[Enquirer]

@ Vale, I am not prepared to enter into an argument ... period.
God's word is the only authority that I recognise and nothing else, no "My church says this" or "believes this" or
any other extra Biblical doctrine is relevant to me.

 

[KingJ]

1
: the worship of a physical object as a god

2
: immoderate attachment or devotion to something http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/idolatry

Unfortunately the definition has been expanded well beyond it's original definition. I only put the dictionary definition here for reference because I don't consider the dictionary an authority when it comes to defining words because of the way Merriam-Webster includes inculcated understanding of words based on the ignorance of the masses. I say this specifically about the second definition.

Biblical idolatry is ascribing deity to objects created by man's hand or to created things such as the sun and moon, worshipping the creature as the Creator.

It isn't the inordinate affection toward material things, people, power, fame, or anything else. I've certainly heard that definition passed around among Christians and it has no validity. And it isn't the use of images and statues in worship, for God commanded such things to be made but they were not themselves the objects of worship. Statues of the Blessed Virgin are certainly not idols. It's unfortunate that Biblically illiterate people have accused Catholics of idolatry based on their ignorant understanding of the 2nd commandment, "Thou shalt not make unto thyself any graven image" They miss the fact that graven images were included in Hebrew worship and they also miss the most important two words "UNTO THYSELF" which is the key difference. The golden calf that was cast in a forge was made not for God, but for the people to worship. They made it unto themselves, not to God. I've even seen some legalistic Christians and Jehovah Witnesses deprive their children of dolls and teddy bears because of their warped view of this commandment.

The closest modern equivalent is the practice of Eastern religions including Buddhism that have statues that are prayed to and ascribed deity and consciousness. And you need not travel thousands of miles to see idolatry, I've seen these things sold in American malls.

But how do you see idolatry?

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knows to do good, and does it not, to him it is sin.

They knew God. Moses made sure of that. The miracles God did cleared all doubt. So, when knowing better they still made a golden calf to replace God.

Worshipping anything as your God is idolatry. God's jealousy is related but a separate issue. Idolatry is on par with me cheating on my wife. Spending too much time with other woman or with the computer makes her jealous. A lessor extremity of evil intention. Not always a mortal sin.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

@ Vale, I am not prepared to enter into an argument ... period.

Then you should find another hobby.

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knows to do good, and does it not, to him it is sin.

They knew God. Moses made sure of that. The miracles God did cleared all doubt. So, when knowing better they still made a golden calf to replace God.

Worshipping anything as your God is idolatry. God's jealousy is related but a separate issue. Idolatry is on par with me cheating on my wife. Spending too much time with other woman or with the computer makes her jealous. A lessor extremity of evil intention. Not always a mortal sin.

I agree with all of this.

 

[shturt678s]

Thank you folks for caring!

I was just wondering how serious it is from God's view when one worships the antichristian power and authority in light of IIThess.2:4; Rev.13:14b, ie, world wide pretentious image worship? Could this be considered "Idolatry"?

Old Jack just thinking out loud again, ie, hope not too argumentative? Hobby, Bible thumpping 24/7 & and Jn.8:51.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Thank you folks for caring!

I was just wondering how serious it is from God's view when one worships the antichristian power and authority in light of IIThess.2:4; Rev.13:14b, ie, world wide pretentious image worship? Could this be considered "Idolatry"?

Old Jack just thinking out loud again, ie, hope not too argumentative? Hobby, Bible thumpping 24/7 & and Jn.8:51.

I started a thread not too long ago commenting on how people are incorporating the universe in place of God in conversations. The universe has a plan. The universe rights all wrongs. The universe loves me.

The transition is already occurring.

 

[shturt678s]

I started a thread not too long ago commenting on how people are incorporating the universe in place of God in conversations. The universe has a plan. The universe rights all wrongs. The universe loves me.

The transition is already occurring.

Thank you for your response and caring!

A head's up...we are beginning to agree to agree more...RANDOR could have the 'big one' if he finds out.

Old disagreeable Jack

Thank you again...highest respect for you and your words.

 

[michaelvpardo]

1
: the worship of a physical object as a god

2
: immoderate attachment or devotion to something http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/idolatry


Biblical idolatry is ascribing deity to objects created by man's hand or to created things such as the sun and moon, worshipping the creature as the Creator.


But how do you see idolatry?

The bible identifies idolatry a bit more widely:
5. Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.
6. Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, Colossians 3:5-6

Since the commandment is to worship God and God alone and to love Him with all of our being, anything which we find is more important to us than obedience to our God is idolatry, for in those things in which we choose to obey our own desires rather than God's will for us, we are loving Him less.
"If you love Me, keep My commandments." John 14:15
The scripture also calls adultery idolatry and for the same reason: When we commit adultery we are placing our desires above the commandment of God.
If it weren't for God's grace given through the sacrifice of His Son, none of us would ever be saved.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

The bible identifies idolatry a bit more widely:
5. Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.
6. Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, Colossians 3:5-6

Since the commandment is to worship God and God alone and to love Him with all of our being, anything which we find is more important to us than obedience to our God is idolatry, for in those things in which we choose to obey our own desires rather than God's will for us, we are loving Him less.
"If you love Me, keep My commandments." John 14:15
The scripture also calls adultery idolatry and for the same reason: When we commit adultery we are placing our desires above the commandment of God.
If it weren't for God's grace given through the sacrifice of His Son, none of us would ever be saved.

Good. I'm glad we're getting away from statues used in worship being idols, unless they're specifically worshipped as deities.

I hope we're also getting away from frivolous definitions of idolatry, such as "If you watch a lot of football, it's an idol".

And since you correctly point out that Scripture says covetousness is idolatry, that means the entire Democrat party is based on idolatry. But that's another discussion. Still, I'm glad you brought that up.

The common theme is devoting ourselves to things other than God, not football, but evil things such as adultery and covetousness.

I think we're on the same page here.

 

[michaelvpardo]

And since you correctly point out that Scripture says covetousness is idolatry, that means the entire Democrat party is based on idolatry. But that's another discussion. Still, I'm glad you brought that up.

I'm not familiar with the original language, but in the English, idolatry (in Colossians 3:5-6) can refer to more than just covetousness, but on all those behaviors proceeding it. I was never comfortable with the notion of praying to statues, even when I was a Catholic, but my point is that idolatry, by the broader definition of scripture, is something that most, if not all people are guilty of, to some degree and since God doesn't judge us on a curve, we'd all be lost without the grace that He's freely given through faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

I'm not familiar with the original language, but in the English, idolatry (in Colossians 3:5-6) can refer to more than just covetousness, but on all those behaviors proceeding it. I was never comfortable with the notion of praying to statues, even when I was a Catholic, but my point is that idolatry, by the broader definition of scripture, is something that most, if not all people are guilty of, to some degree and since God doesn't judge us on a curve, we'd all be lost without the grace that He's freely given through faith in Jesus Christ.

There are no behaviors that precede covetousness, it's the one "thought crime" that God forbade from the very first time the law was given. A disposition of ingratitude gives rise to covetousness, but covetousness is the thought process by which jealousy turns into a strategy to deprive another of their possessions. Covetousness is premeditation and stealing, looting, plundering, killing, are the behaviors that stem from it. There is an entire party in America that's based on this sin, insisting that the rich are too rich and they must be forced to give more to others. Whether it's through violence or through legislation, it's still the exact same sin.

Anyone who believes they are owed more than they are blessed with and merit by the toil of their hands and plots to acquire what doesn't belong to them are evil. People do this in courtrooms with lawsuits, people do it through theft, or they do it through violence, robbing, looting, etc. In every case, they sinfully convince themselves they deserve what another person possesses. Yes it is idolatry, and yes it is sin even as the thoughts form in the head.