What's your definition of idolatry?

[This Vale Of Tears]

1
: the worship of a physical object as a god

2
: immoderate attachment or devotion to something http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/idolatry

Unfortunately the definition has been expanded well beyond it's original definition. I only put the dictionary definition here for reference because I don't consider the dictionary an authority when it comes to defining words because of the way Merriam-Webster includes inculcated understanding of words based on the ignorance of the masses. I say this specifically about the second definition.

Biblical idolatry is ascribing deity to objects created by man's hand or to created things such as the sun and moon, worshipping the creature as the Creator.

It isn't the inordinate affection toward material things, people, power, fame, or anything else. I've certainly heard that definition passed around among Christians and it has no validity. And it isn't the use of images and statues in worship, for God commanded such things to be made but they were not themselves the objects of worship. Statues of the Blessed Virgin are certainly not idols. It's unfortunate that Biblically illiterate people have accused Catholics of idolatry based on their ignorant understanding of the 2nd commandment, "Thou shalt not make unto thyself any graven image" They miss the fact that graven images were included in Hebrew worship and they also miss the most important two words "UNTO THYSELF" which is the key difference. The golden calf that was cast in a forge was made not for God, but for the people to worship. They made it unto themselves, not to God. I've even seen some legalistic Christians and Jehovah Witnesses deprive their children of dolls and teddy bears because of their warped view of this commandment.

The closest modern equivalent is the practice of Eastern religions including Buddhism that have statues that are prayed to and ascribed deity and consciousness. And you need not travel thousands of miles to see idolatry, I've seen these things sold in American malls.

But how do you see idolatry?

 

[Nomad]

I don't have a problem with your definition, but I do have a problem with the way you misrepresented the second commandment in your attempt to justify statues in the Roman mass. How did you do this? You left out a very important part of the second commandment.

Exo 20:4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Exo 20:5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them...

It's no surprise that you left out that part. We both know that bowing down to statues of Mary by parishioners and priests happens all the time. You can try to make the tired old distinction between "latria," "dulia" and "hyperdulia," but inanimate objects deserve no respect or veneration. Investing them with some sort of "presence" worthy of veneration (bowing down) is the epitome of idolatry according to the second commandment.

 

[Tex]

Letter of the law says the first definition is correct. However, the spirit of the law includes the later as well. I've always called them "crass idolatry", obvious worship of something that is not God, and "refined idolatry", which is more simply about what is most important in your life.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

I don't have a problem with your definition, but I do have a problem with the way you misrepresented the second commandment in your attempt to justify statues in the Roman mass. How did you do this? You left out a very important part of the second commandment.

Exo 20:4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Exo 20:5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them...

It's no surprise that you left out that part. We both know that bowing down to statues of Mary by parishioners and priests happens all the time. You can try to make the tired old distinction between "latria," "dulia" and "hyperdulia," but inanimate objects deserve no respect or veneration. Investing them with some sort of "presence" worthy of veneration (bowing down) is the epitome of idolatry according to the second commandment.

No, I really didn't leave anything out. The 2nd commandment cannot be read in isolation from the first, that graven images be ascribed deity and worshipped as a god. This doesn't happen in the Catholic Church. Every bow in Catholic Mass is directed toward the Eucharist who we believe is in fact Jesus in physical form. We bow and genuflect before taking our seat. We bow before approaching the altar to accept holy communion, and we bow a third time before leaving the pew, always in the same direction, always toward Jesus.

Statues in the Catholic Church served the same purpose as statues in Hebrew worship, which God commanded to be made. They aren't gods and therefore not idols, but they are icons or "windows into heaven" in which the veil between the material and the immaterial becomes very thin indeed. To be close to Mary is to be close to Jesus and to honor Mary is to honor his son. The very God that commanded we honor our father and our mother models this very concept in the relationship Jesus has with his mother. Mary is a creature, not a god, therefore is not worshipped as God, but she is well deserving of our affection because if Jesus is our brother, than Mary is our mother. What you see in this picture is this affection. The statue isn't Mary, but it's an icon by which we can gaze into heaven and render honor to the Mother of God. The closest Biblical rendering of this is the Eastern sages bowing before Mary holding Jesus. They were worshipping Jesus and honoring his mother, and it's just misguided to take them bowing before Mary the wrong way.

Letter of the law says the first definition is correct. However, the spirit of the law includes the later as well. I've always called them "crass idolatry", obvious worship of something that is not God, and "refined idolatry", which is more simply about what is most important in your life.

Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. (Col 3:5)

I think I see your point.

 

[Nomad]

The second commandment is clear and all I'm seeing is a bunch of excuses for circumventing a direct command. There are no extenuating circumstances prescribed along with the second commandment. I see no exemption directing those who only intend dulia or hyperdulia to disregard the commandment. If all of this isn't enough, show me one place in the OT where a Jewish priest bowed down in any way, shape or form to an icon.

Exo 20:4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Exo 20:5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them...

 

[shturt678]

Thank you folks for caring!

So possibly the acme of "Idolatry" is reached when we construct an image in our hearts for the purpose of universal worhip, for example, Rev.13:14b?

Old Jack breaking those images

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

The second commandment is clear and all I'm seeing is a bunch of excuses for circumventing a direct command. There are no extenuating circumstances prescribed along with the second commandment. I see no exemption directing those who only intend dulia or hyperdulia to disregard the commandment. If all of this isn't enough, show me one place in the OT where a Jewish priest bowed down in any way, shape or form to an icon.

Exo 20:4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Exo 20:5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them...

The 2nd commandment cannot be isolated from the 1st commandment. They are in tandem. Separating them in an attempt to condemn Christian practices for 2000 years is simply pursuing your own agenda. And I truly mean 2000 years because these practices go all the way back to the first centuries of the Church.

 

[Nomad]

It started early, but no, it was not so in the beginning. The longevity of a rebellious practice is not an excuse for its acceptance. Show me even one NT reference that allows for the use of icons in worship, especially bowing down to them.

 

[Madad21]

When i first became a Christian I was told that Idolitry is what ever I put in the place of Jesus.

I heard a Mark Driscoll sermon where he said that if you want to know what it is you worship look at what you are spending all your money on.

I suppose this is true of maybe a hobby or interest or a career, but in my case Im not sure that I am worshiping the bills. unless we call trying to get by in life idolatry.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

When i first became a Christian I was told that Idolitry is what ever I put in the place of Jesus.

I heard a Mark Driscoll sermon where he said that if you want to know what it is you worship look at what you are spending all your money on.

I suppose this is true of maybe a hobby or interest or a career, but in my case Im not sure that I am worshiping the bills. unless we call trying to get by in life idolatry.

Sounds like somebody wanted more money in the plate. I've heard plenty of sermons crafted subtly to hint that people should be giving more to the church. And you're right about the bills! With a family of 6 on one income, bills pretty much take up everything. If I have a little left over to take the family to the movies, are we worshipping the latest X-MEN prequel?

 

[Madad21]

Sounds like somebody wanted more money in the plate. I've heard plenty of sermons crafted subtly to hint that people should be giving more to the church. And you're right about the bills! With a family of 6 on one income, bills pretty much take up everything. If I have a little left over to take the family to the movies, are we worshipping the latest X-MEN prequel?

Are you kidding, you should be worshiping the new Transformers movie with Mark Wahlberg

 

[shturt678]

When i first became a Christian I was told that Idolitry is what ever I put in the place of Jesus.

I heard a Mark Driscoll sermon where he said that if you want to know what it is you worship look at what you are spending all your money on.

I suppose this is true of maybe a hobby or interest or a career, but in my case Im not sure that I am worshiping the bills. unless we call tryThank ing to get by in life idolatry.

Thank you for caring again!

Looking at what I'm spending my money and time on even today...second thought forget the money part..minus few thousand, however the time part?

Slacking on the Word today...hitting it tomorrow.

 

[Enquirer]

I don't want to beat up on the Catholics but in all honesty, the Catholic Church is not honest when it comes to the Ten Commandments.

What they have done is to remove the second commandment,

"You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the
water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers
on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My
Commandments."

Which left them with nine, and then they took the tenth commandment,

You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his
donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.”

And split it in two.

"You shall not covet your neighbours wife."

and

"You shall not covet your neighbours goods"

So now they have Ten Commandments again.

This is plain and simple crookery, why have they done this ?
Because the sale of statues is big business for them.

 

[Tex]

@Enquirer

That's a bit harsh. I'm not Romanist, but I know that is not what is taught by their teaching authority. I will say that idolatry of saints does happen though, and is most notable in South America. The Virgin Queen is held so high, it is as she is the mediator between God and man, rather than Jesus. In this manner, Mary replaces Jesus as our narrow gate. While this is not universal, the outlook is the majority. I have many Brazilian, Peruvian, and Columbian friends who are Romanists themselves and went to Roman college with me who verify what I have surmized externally.

Their big thing is that even in soap operas, at the end of nearly every episode, some miracle happens and roses appear. Mary saved the day. The focus of everything is Mary. This, I'm sure, would make Mary quite unhappy. I'm also sure that the state of South American idolatry makes many Romanists unhappy.

 

[Enquirer]

Hey Tex, my apologies if it came over to harsh, I myself was brought up in a Catholic home (I'm no longer Catholic).
My mother was brought up in a convent until she came of age and my father's side were major Catholics.
So I have much respect for them.
However, no one has the right to fiddle with God's word because their church says it's ok.

Anyhow, to respond to the OP of what is idolatry, I asked this very same question to a group of Biblical Greek scholars one day
with the view of Col 3:5 in mind.

"Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry".

To you and I this verse initially might mean that only "greed" at the end of the verse was the idolatry that Paul spoke of.
However, in the Greek it translates as:

"Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amount
to idolatry."

This puts a whole new spin on it's meaning as it lumps them all together in a sense.

To the Greek believer in Paul's time, sexual immorality was very much connected to idolatry.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

@Enquirer

That's a bit harsh. I'm not Romanist, but I know that is not what is taught by their teaching authority. I will say that idolatry of saints does happen though, and is most notable in South America. The Virgin Queen is held so high, it is as she is the mediator between God and man, rather than Jesus. In this manner, Mary replaces Jesus as our narrow gate. While this is not universal, the outlook is the majority. I have many Brazilian, Peruvian, and Columbian friends who are Romanists themselves and went to Roman college with me who verify what I have surmized externally.

Their big thing is that even in soap operas, at the end of nearly every episode, some miracle happens and roses appear. Mary saved the day. The focus of everything is Mary. This, I'm sure, would make Mary quite unhappy. I'm also sure that the state of South American idolatry makes many Romanists unhappy.

What often happens in South America is a mixture of Catholicism and heathen religious beliefs such as Santeria, worship of ancestors, and polytheism. On Dia De Los Muertos they dig up dead relatives and pray to them. In these benighted parts of the globe, pure Christian doctrine has been tainted by demonic beliefs they don't want to let go of.

Regarding Mary or any of the saints, they are honored as any saint should be, especially the Mother of God, but they are not worshipped as God. Mary is a creature just like we are and like all creatures, human or angel, is not an object of worship. Love and devotion to Mary is love and devotion to Christ, for this is the very woman who gave birth to the God who commanded us to honor our father and mother. Protestants make the mistake of thinking she was an incubator, something to be discarded after outliving it's usefulness, and do much to downplay her role as theotokos, the vessel by which salvation came into the world.

Regarding Enquirer's absurd notion that Catholics have removed the 2nd commandment, I've heard that before. I once had a Baptist pastor tell me how the Catholic Church removed the 2nd commandment and right there I told him I had a Catholic Bible and we can see if the 2nd commandment has been removed from it. He didn't accept the challenge.

In fact, the truth is that the Catholic Church views the first and second commandment together, because indeed they are the same concept, that there should be worshipped no other God, no creature, no graven image, not anything. This is what the CCC says, and tell me if somehow Enquirer is right that the 2nd commandment has been removed:

PART THREE
LIFE IN CHRIST
SECTION TWO
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS
CHAPTER ONE
"YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND"
ARTICLE 1
THE FIRST COMMANDMENT

I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them.3
It is written: "You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve."4

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c1a1.htm

I have no issue with Protestants who have respectful disagreements based on the truth, but when some of them make things up, there's nothing respectable about that.

 

[Enquirer]

Hi there Vale of Tears ... as I've stated before, no offense intended, nevertheless you welcome to take a look at the following.

http://www.the-ten-commandments.org/romancatholic-tencommandments.html

http://www.catholicbible101.com/thetencommandments.htm

http://www.beginningcatholic.com/catholic-te

The last two sites are Catholic, so there's no refuting that.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Hi there Vale of Tears ... as I've stated before, no offense intended, nevertheless you welcome to take a look at the following.

http://www.the-ten-commandments.org/romancatholic-tencommandments.html

http://www.catholicbible101.com/thetencommandments.htm

http://www.beginningcatholic.com/catholic-te

The last two sites are Catholic, so there's no refuting that.

I posted a direct excerpt from the CCC. Stop lying. You cannot wield the weapons of Satan to further the kingdom of God, you just cant.

Your first link outright lied by omitting the entire 1st commandment in the Catechism, lopping off any mention of graven images. Your second link quotes the entire ten commandments from Exodus 20 and does not omit the prohibition against graven image. And the third link says exactly what I've said here, that the numbering is different, Protestants merge the last two commandments into one and Catholics merge the first two. But both traditions abbreviate when they list the commandments, usually quoting just the first sentence. In the case of the Catholic rendering, the commandment isn't split into two commandments, it's one.

That's why I quoted from the Catechism, the highest authority in the Catholic Church when it comes to doctrine, disciplines, and organization. To think you can paste some website and think it has more clout than the catechsim just shows how desperately you want to preserve a lie and how obstinate you are at being corrected when you're in error.

Your obstinance and your lying are not inspired by the Lord, so just stop it.

 

[Tex]

@Vale

I hold a high respect for theotokos as theotokos. Notice I capitalized Virgin Queen. She certainly is not simply an incubator.

The part I disagree with is when we take Mary's place in creation and make it supernatural. I disagree with the "new Eve" theology, which would make Mary a "coredemptrix" as it states in the Roman catechism. Ark of the Covenant is much more accurate, but let us not forget that the house of the Lord was just wood and metal. I also disagree that Mary was sinless because she would need a perfect body and soul, which would only be given at resurration or she is the firstfruits and not Jesus. The only way to reconcile this is a strange timewarp scenario, and I just can't understand the necessity to jump through these hoops.

She housed the Lord, she raised the Lord, and she wept for the Lord as he conquered sin, death, and the devil on the cross. She should be honored by all as a great woman.

And yes, I understand many parts of South America have a very blended Christianity due to the paganism. That's pretty much what I meant by my post. Many times they are idolatrous of Mary, ancestors, etc. These are the people of your specifc branch that you criticize correctly for the same criticisms many give to the Romans as a whole.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

@Vale

I hold a high respect for theotokos as theotokos. Notice I capitalized Virgin Queen. She certainly is not simply an incubator.

The part I disagree with is when we take Mary's place in creation and make it supernatural. I disagree with the "new Eve" theology, which would make Mary a "coredemptrix" as it states in the Roman catechism. Ark of the Covenant is much more accurate, but let us not forget that the house of the Lord was just wood and metal. I also disagree that Mary was sinless because she would need a perfect body and soul, which would only be given at resurration or she is the firstfruits and not Jesus. The only way to reconcile this is a strange timewarp scenario, and I just can't understand the necessity to jump through these hoops.

She housed the Lord, she raised the Lord, and she wept for the Lord as he conquered sin, death, and the devil on the cross. She should be honored by all as a great woman.

And yes, I understand many parts of South America have a very blended Christianity due to the paganism. That's pretty much what I meant by my post. Many times they are idolatrous of Mary, ancestors, etc. These are the people of your specifc branch that you criticize correctly for the same criticisms many give to the Romans as a whole.

We would need a whole 'nother thread to discuss all those issues. I don't think that simple beliefs about Mary, that she was conceived immaculately, that she remained forever a virgin, or that she was coronated in heaven by God, are idolizing her, especially if we're using the model of Old Testament idolatry where objects, elements, or people are made into deities to be served and worshipped. I'm not dismissing all your objections, just trying to keep the discussion on focus. I'm also very interested in your estimation of the claim that the Catholic Church did away with the 2nd commandment. I think a very clear line should be drawn between Protestants who disagree with what Catholics actually believe and teach and those who make up strawmen to assail, claiming the Church effaced the prohibition against graven images made to be worshipped as gods. Anyone who makes untruthful claims like that should be rebuked.