When Christ returns, we shall all be changed, including heaven and earth, actually all things are changed out for something better.

[Deleted member 26788]

With physical sight every eye shall see Christ returning in the clouds

no . in the clouds means he will not be visible to the eye. you may of noticed clouds can hide things . high up in the air it can hide airplanes even higher the moon even the sun and stars . we know such things are there even if we cant see them. they are not visible because of the clouds .
there is also the problem with every eye can see him . every one would have to be in the same spot looking to the same spot to see him .

 

[Deleted member 26788]

please consider Matthew 24 Jesus speaks of the things happening that indicate his his presence.
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.''

 

[rwb]

no . in the clouds means he will not be visible to the eye. you may of noticed clouds can hide things . high up in the air it can hide airplanes even higher the moon even the sun and stars . we know such things are there even if we cant see them. they are not visible because of the clouds .
there is also the problem with every eye can see him . every one would have to be in the same spot looking to the same spot to see him .

I disagree! Christ was clearly physically visible to His disciples until a cloud received Him out of their sight as He ascended up to heaven. This truth is further conveyed in Daniel 7 where Daniel saw through vision one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven to the Ancient of days. This is a vision of Christ visibly ascending to heaven after His resurrection.

Daniel 7:13-14 (KJV) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

 

[Deleted member 26788]

likely because his return,his presents is not what you had expected or hoped for. it has put you in denial . you thought you would see him with your own eyes . the only ones to lay an eye on him will be the elect .

 

[Deleted member 26788]

''until a cloud received Him out of their sight'''

years back I was driving when the car ahead of me disappeared into a thick fog . it was like a wall the car went in and was gone from my sight . I knew the car was in there ,I had driven it the fog before and had been surprised when another car appeared as if out of nowhere . clouds mean not visible even invisible .

 

[HappyOma]

Even though some 30-plus years had passed since the resurrection of Christ and the Matthew 27:52-53 saints back in AD 33, those Matt. 27 resurrected saints were still circulating and serving among the early church. Hymenaeus and Philetus were calling attention to the former AD 33 resurrection of those Matt. 27 saints who were still remaining on the earth, and were telling everybody that this past single resurrection event was the only bodily resurrection event that would ever take place. These two men were not in error as to the nature of the resurrection involving the bodies of the saints rising out of the ground. They were in error as to the number of bodily resurrection events that God had planned. There would three bodily resurrection events in total, as Paul taught in 1 Cor. 15:23-24.


Christ spoke about two of those bodily resurrection events in John 5:25 and 28. "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and NOW IS when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live." In this verse, Christ was referring to the imminent bodily resurrection of the Matthew 27:52-53 saints who would rise from their graves on the same day as Christ in AD 33. There were no unrighteous who shared in any way in this resurrection event. None but that group of many saints coming out of those graves around Jerusalem. These along with Christ were called the "First-fruits".

But Christ went on to say in verse 28, "Marvel not at this, for the hour is coming, in the which ALL that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth, they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." This was a second resurrection event. ALL the rest who had died up until AD 70, both good and evil, took part in that second resurrection event


You have the launching point of the New Covenant incorrect. The change in the law was simultaneous with the change in the priesthood (Hebrews 7:12). And Christ was consecrated our Great High Priest in heaven at His resurrection-day ascension to the Father. NOT in AD 70. The ascended Christ exited the heavenly temple that morning after His resurrection and returned to earth that same morning. Christ had already become the High Priest, as Hebrews 9:11 announced. The Hebrews readers were not waiting for AD 70 for the New Covenant to be "fully expressed". They were just waiting for God to "take out the trash" of those "weak and beggarly elements" which were already dead and decaying at that point.


.

There is no justification for claiming that Jesus was speaking of two different hours in John 5. What is the span of the "hour"? Is this speaking of a literal 60-minute time frame? No. John later wrote, in his first epistle: "It is the LAST hour" (1 John 2:18). Jesus was expressing to His discip;les that the time frame they had hoped for was upon them--that His arrival as the Messiah was ushering in the Messianic Age when the resurrection would occur. The hope of the Jews was the resurrection. The time frame ("the hour") for that to happen was initiated with His Advent. Within that time period, the resurrection spoken of by Daniel (12:2) and the resurrection of the dead written of by Paul (1 Cor. 15) was then able to come about.

Paul spoke of the hope of Israel when he was brought before Felix and told him that he was preaching nothing else than what the Jews themselves taught--that there was "ABOUT TO BE a resurrection of the dead" (Acts 24:15). That resurrection would be associated with the judgment of the just and the unjust. Jesus placed that judgment in the lifetime of those disciples right there with Him when He said to THEM: "For the Son of Man is about to come with His angels in the glory of His Father, and THEN He will repay each person according to what he has done. Truly, I say to YOU, there are some standing HERE who will not taste death until THEY see the Son of Man COMING IN HIS KINGDOM" (Mat. 16:27, 28). All of them (Jesus, John, Paul) placed the resurrection and the judgment in THEIR lifetime. Paul also placed the judgment there when he told Felix about the judgment that was ABOUT TO COME (Acts 24:25). This frightened Felix enough that he sent Paul away.

Jesus speaks of only ONE hour in John 5. That "hour" (time frame) had already arrived in His advent as the Messiah; it would be consummated in that same ("hour"--time frame) of those disciples of His day.

 

[HappyOma]

How do you prove it was their spirit that died, since Scripture says it is the spirit that gives life? If the spirit in them died, how did their body continue to be physically alive since they were not born again? It was through the fallen, not dead, spirit within them, giving them physical life, that they knew they had sinned against God. Because they chose evil rather than good, the serpent spoke truth when he said "Ye shall not surely die." But that was only truth in part, the serpent knew that man having knowledge of evil would not physically die on the same one day they disobeyed God, but on that day (one) during the age in which they lived they became dead in trespasses and sins. After the fall, apart from the Spirit of Christ in them, man would remain dead to righteousness, goodness. That means man could never muster up faith to save themselves, being destined to die in their sins. Because apart from Christ none are good, none are righteous. The spirit in them did not die, rather the spirit giving man physical life became altogether without the ability to attain eternal life. It is in this manner that man died during the day/age/time in which A&E lived. Dead to God's Spirit, but very much alive to the spirit that works in the hearts of fallen man.

I didn't say the spirit died in the sense that it did not exist--I said they died spiritually in relationship to their fellowship with God. Notice what SCRIPTURE says about "spirit" death:

Revelation 3:1
“To the angel of the church in Sardis write: He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: ‘I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but YOU ARE DEAD..

Ephesians 2:1
And you were DEAD in your trespasses and sins,

Ephesians 2:5
even when we were DEAD in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Colossians 2:13
When you were DEAD in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,

Matthew 8:22
But Jesus *said to him, “Follow Me, and allow the DEAD to bury their own dead.

Hosea 13:1
When Ephraim spoke, there was trembling.
He exalted himself in Israel,
But through Baal he did wrong and DIED [not literally]

1 John 3:14
We know that we have passed out of DEATH into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.

Romans 7:9
I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I DIED; [not literally]

rwb: Will you plealse explain how Adam and Eve could have their eyes open "in the day" (immediately) but didn't die in that same day? It's a dilemma for you.

 

[Deleted member 26788]

@HappyOma said
1 John 2:18 ''speaks of the "last hour" and the appearance of many antichrists, indicating that the time before Christ's return is marked by false teachings and deception.''

that BTW are the things happening in the here and now . it means Jesus is present

 

[rwb]

likely because his return,his presents is not what you had expected or hoped for. it has put you in denial . you thought you would see him with your own eyes . the only ones to lay an eye on him will be the elect .

I know I will see Him when He comes again! If I am still physically alive when Christ comes again, I will see His appearing in the clouds. If I have physically died, I will see Him when He calls for me to meet Him in the air at His coming. We shall ALL see Him when we are ALL called to stand before the Judgment Throne when Christ comes again.

 

[HappyOma]

Indeed, every eye shall most assuredly see Christ when He returns. Not only shall Christ be seen coming in the clouds to all who are still physically alive upon this earth when He comes again, also all who have died shall be resurrected to life to see the Son of God standing before the judgment throne of God. Those, called wheat standing on His right, and those called goats standing on His left. None shall escape the judgment day of God that shall come when the last/seventh trumpet sounds. The dead, or those who have never been born again (goats) of the Spirit of Christ, at the judgment throne must give account to God according to what is found written in the books and the book of life.

Matthew 25:31-34 (KJV) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Matthew 25:41 (KJV) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matthew 25:46 (KJV) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Matthew 25:31-34 (KJV) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats

Jesus used this same language in Matthew 24:31 and placed the timing of it in the very GENERATION of those disciples right there with Him. It is the same glory coming. Matthew 24 alos places the "gathering" in that SAME time frame--their generation. Why do you ignore the recipients of Jesus' words. He said: "When YOU [His disciples right there with Him] see ALL THESE THINGS, YOU know that He is NEAR, at the VERY GATES" (Mat. 24:23). One must redefine "this generation" in order to not understand that Jesus told them that all those things He warned about and predicted were to come in THEIR lifetime. This is an unavoidable conclusion to anyone seriously looking at the words.

Again, you ignore things you seem to not want to deal with. John was clear about the presence of "those who pierced Him" and the "tribes of the land" in Revelation 1:7. He was coming judgment against those whom He condemned in Matthew 23. THEY would see with their own EYES the presence of God and His judgment upon THEM in A. D. 70.

The context of Matthew 25:31-41 is about that same glory coming with His angels to gather the elect that is placed in THEIR generation. That is the timing of the THEN in verse 41.

The timing of John 5 is also clear. Jesus placed it in the lifetime of those disciples of His day. The judgment and the resurrection were to happen to those who were standing right their with Him (Mat. 16:27)--those who would not taste death until THEY saw the Son of Man COMING in His Kingdom (Mat. 16:28).

CONTEXT is KEY.

 

[Scott Downey]

How could they have observed the cloud receiving Him out of their sight if they had not seen Him bodily ascending into heaven?


The text of His bodily ascending into heaven doesn't say every eye would seem Him going to heaven. We learn from Scripture that every eye shall see Him descending from heaven when Christ comes again.



Before the first advent of Christ, the dead Old Covenant faithful saints waited in the graves for Christ to come and rescue them. Which He did after His resurrection. After the first advent Christ rescued from the place of the dead, the grave taking them with Him to heaven, His spiritual body of living souls. When the body of man dies, only the spirit returns to God who gave it, while the body returns to dust from which it came.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

It is man's spirit that returned to God after bodily death that returns with Christ. Because it is the spirit not the flesh that gives man life, flesh is destined to die.

John 6:63 (KJV) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (KJV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Coming with 'clouds'. God brings the departed spirits of the saints with Christ to be bodily resurrected at the second coming of Christ.
These clouds are spiritual, the saints. Perhaps some angels too.

They were the righteous dead who ascended with Christ when He ascended back to the Father, the ones who had been in Abraham's bosom which was a temporary place in death where they received good things ministered to by angels. As oppesed to fiery toprments of the wicked where they received bad things. The 'cloud' received Him, most certainly, this cloud is alive in the Spirit.

 

[Scott Downey]

An example where the evil spirits of the wicked are like clouds.

In many places, clouds are spirits.
It is not the 'weather'

2 Peter 2:17
These are wells without water, clouds carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
Jude 1:12
These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots;

Coming with the clouds of heaven, well, they would be the redeemed of the Lord
Christ is visible to all, as every eye will see Him return. He comes back with all the Saints and the army of Heaven (clouds)

Acts 1:9
Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.

 

[HappyOma]

How could they have observed the cloud receiving Him out of their sight if they had not seen Him bodily ascending into heaven?


The text of His bodily ascending into heaven doesn't say every eye would seem Him going to heaven. We learn from Scripture that every eye shall see Him descending from heaven when Christ comes again.



Before the first advent of Christ, the dead Old Covenant faithful saints waited in the graves for Christ to come and rescue them. Which He did after His resurrection. After the first advent Christ rescued from the place of the dead, the grave taking them with Him to heaven, His spiritual body of living souls. When the body of man dies, only the spirit returns to God who gave it, while the body returns to dust from which it came.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

It is man's spirit that returned to God after bodily death that returns with Christ. Because it is the spirit not the flesh that gives man life, flesh is destined to die.

John 6:63 (KJV) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (KJV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

You wrote: "The text of His bodily ascending into heaven doesn't say every eye would seem Him going to heaven. We learn from Scripture that every eye shall see Him descending from heaven when Christ comes again."

rwb, you are the one demanding that like manner means bodily and visibly. If like manner can by restricted as you have--to just certain aspects of His return, why can it not be restricted to just clouds? Again, what is the point of what occurred at the ascension? His body? His visibility? That would not have been the focus of the disciples. They were Jews who knew the meaning of "clouds" in the OT prophets--something modern students of God's Word are woefully lacking in. They had understood His words in Matthew 24 when He told them that He was returning to them in their generation in clouds with His mighty angels. There is not even a hint that they did not understand what He was saying. They understood Him so well that they later taught the same thing to those of their day.

Jesus had asked in His high priestly prayer (John 17) to have His glory restored to Him. His ascension was the answer to that prayer as seen by the clouds--a typical OT, prophetic symbol of God's presence, glory, authority, and power! THAT is how He left and THAT was how He returned--in their generation (A. D. 70).

Let us all be careful that we do not come to love our paradigm so much that it blinds us to what is right in front of us. I suspect that some who hold to a yet future coming of Christ to THEM cannot conceive of giving up that hope and how it makes them part of that grand event. It's too exciting to give up. But when it violates God's Word, it must be discarded, no matter how near and dear it might be to us.

Will we look at the words of Scripture in their CONTEXT and in the manner in which the disciples would have understood them?

How is it possible to misunderstand the following: "In a VERY, VERY LITTLE WHILE He who IS COMING will COME and will NOT DELAY" (Heb. 10:37). That was written shortly before A. D. 70 (ca 64-69). Repeatedly, I have asked futurists to at least try to deal with this verse. CRICKETS!

 

[HappyOma]

I agree 1 Cor 10 is not alluding specifically to the events of 70AD. But it is speaking of a principle that can be applied to 70AD as well as to other events that happened to Israel in the bible. We the church of Messiah are the Israel of God (which is a commonwealth which includes believing Gentiles), of which Israel after the flesh is an allegory in the bible.

It is the Holy Spirit who leads us into all truth, not the carnal mind. The carnal mind is even said to be enmity with God, so that is not what we are to rely on. The bible also says to lean not to our own understanding but in all our ways acknowledge (look to, lean on, rely on, give glory to) God and He will make our paths straight (of which the word is God is a light unto to our path). The Holy Spirit is the oil for our lamps.

 

[HappyOma]

I agree 1 Cor 10 is not alluding specifically to the events of 70AD. But it is speaking of a principle that can be applied to 70AD as well as to other events that happened to Israel in the bible. We the church of Messiah are the Israel of God (which is a commonwealth which includes believing Gentiles), of which Israel after the flesh is an allegory in the bible.

It is the Holy Spirit who leads us into all truth, not the carnal mind. The carnal mind is even said to be enmity with God, so that is not what we are to rely on. The bible also says to lean not to our own understanding but in all our ways acknowledge (look to, lean on, rely on, give glory to) God and He will make our paths straight (of which the word is God is a light unto to our path). The Holy Spirit is the oil for our lamps.

What

I agree 1 Cor 10 is not alluding specifically to the events of 70AD. But it is speaking of a principle that can be applied to 70AD as well as to other events that happened to Israel in the bible. We the church of Messiah are the Israel of God (which is a commonwealth which includes believing Gentiles), of which Israel after the flesh is an allegory in the bible.

It is the Holy Spirit who leads us into all truth, not the carnal mind. The carnal mind is even said to be enmity with God, so that is not what we are to rely on. The bible also says to lean not to our own understanding but in all our ways acknowledge (look to, lean on, rely on, give glory to) God and He will make our paths straight (of which the word is God is a light unto to our path). The Holy Spirit is the oil for our lamps.

What "other events that happened to Israel in the Bible"? How is "israel after the flesh" an "allegory in the Bible"? Could you please clarify. I'm not sure what your meaning is. Thanks.

 

[rwb]

rwb: Will you plealse explain how Adam and Eve could have their eyes open "in the day" (immediately) but didn't die in that same day? It's a dilemma for you.

Their eyes were opened to the consequences of their transgression against God in the day they disobeyed. From that very moment during the time in which they lived they understood how being dead in trespasses and sins is a death sentence for them. As long as they lived, they were dead to God but alive to the evil one and burdened by sin. That's why God said that in the day they ate of the forbidden tree they would die! Not physically or even spiritual, because submitting to the voice of the serpent made them and all their progeny after them without ability to live in righteousness and truth, IOW without ability to hear the voice of God to be saved and live forever. Destined to death, so God made coats of skins to cover their nakedness and placed cherubim to prevent them from taking of the tree of life and live forever in a state of death. This being the first depiction of Christ represented as the lamb slain from the foundation of the world, the true tree of life that every man must partake of to have everlasting life through Him.

 

[HappyOma]

BTW "clouds" in the Bible verse means ''invisible''.
in ''like manner'' means his return is also "invisible . but by the signs we know he is here .

Just curious, locust. Where are you getting your understanding that "clouds" mean "invisible"?

Also, WE were never told to know the signs--those disciples of right there with Jesus and others of that generation were to recognize the signs. Jesus said so in Matthew 24.

 

[HappyOma]

Their eyes were opened to the consequences of their transgression against God in the day they disobeyed. From that very moment during the time in which they lived they understood how being dead in trespasses and sins is a death sentence for them. As long as they lived, they were dead to God but alive to the evil one and burdened by sin. That's why God said that in the day they ate of the forbidden tree they would die! Not physically or even spiritual, because submitting to the voice of the serpent made them and all their progeny after them without ability to live in righteousness and truth, IOW without ability to hear the voice of God to be saved and live forever. Destined to death, so God made coats of skins to cover their nakedness and placed cherubim to prevent them from taking of the tree of life and live forever in a state of death. This being the first depiction of Christ represented as the lamb slain from the foundation of the world, the true tree of life that every man must partake of to have everlasting life through Him.

It is clear that the phrase "in the day" applied to both their eyes being opened and their dying. When they sinned, their eyes were immediately opened to see good and evil and at that same time--in that same "day"--they DIED. The proof that that "death" involved their no longer being able to be with God is seen in their ejecton from the Garden and their lack of access to the Tree of Life.

"In the day" is the SAME time frame for both the opening of their eyes and their dying. When one happened, so did the other.

 

[rwb]

Matthew 25:31-34 (KJV) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats

Jesus used this same language in Matthew 24:31 and placed the timing of it in the very GENERATION of those disciples right there with Him. It is the same glory coming. Matthew 24 alos places the "gathering" in that SAME time frame--their generation. Why do you ignore the recipients of Jesus' words. He said: "When YOU [His disciples right there with Him] see ALL THESE THINGS, YOU know that He is NEAR, at the VERY GATES" (Mat. 24:23). One must redefine "this generation" in order to not understand that Jesus told them that all those things He warned about and predicted were to come in THEIR lifetime. This is an unavoidable conclusion to anyone seriously looking at the words.

Again, you ignore things you seem to not want to deal with. John was clear about the presence of "those who pierced Him" and the "tribes of the land" in Revelation 1:7. He was coming judgment against those whom He condemned in Matthew 23. THEY would see with their own EYES the presence of God and His judgment upon THEM in A. D. 70.

The context of Matthew 25:31-41 is about that same glory coming with His angels to gather the elect that is placed in THEIR generation. That is the timing of the THEN in verse 41.

The timing of John 5 is also clear. Jesus placed it in the lifetime of those disciples of His day. The judgment and the resurrection were to happen to those who were standing right their with Him (Mat. 16:27)--those who would not taste death until THEY saw the Son of Man COMING in His Kingdom (Mat. 16:28).

CONTEXT is KEY.

I don't ignore the truth that Christ was literally speaking to His first century disciples of things that would come upon them. I simply don't limit Christ's words to them alone as Preterists attempt to. The words Christ spoke from the Mount of Olives in the first century AD is written of things that are impossible to understand when we try to make the discourse to these first century disciples alone. The only way to harmonize the discourse with the whole of Scripture is in understanding the words Christ spoke to them are written to the church throughout the ages.

 

[rwb]

Coming with 'clouds'. God brings the departed spirits of the saints with Christ to be bodily resurrected at the second coming of Christ.
These clouds are spiritual, the saints. Perhaps some angels too.

They were the righteous dead who ascended with Christ when He ascended back to the Father, the ones who had been in Abraham's bosom which was a temporary place in death where they received good things ministered to by angels. As oppesed to fiery toprments of the wicked where they received bad things. The 'cloud' received Him, most certainly, this cloud is alive in the Spirit.

I mostly, but don't entirely agree, but neither would I ague against this.