Nonsense. The new covenant was fully ushered in at the cross rendering the old TOTALLY redundant. It was dead. The old covenant corpse simply received a decent burial in AD70.
When Christ returns, we shall all be changed, including heaven and earth, actually all things are changed out for something better.
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Nonsense. The new covenant was fully ushered in at the cross rendering the old TOTALLY redundant. It was dead. The old covenant corpse simply received a decent burial in AD70.
Preterists are obsessed with AD70. It is the centrepoint of history to them. The rest of us see the centrality and apex of history as the cross. They also see His future coming as the climax of history and the pivot from this age (of time) into the age to come (eternity). You have dodged this compelling argument from several posters above. That is because it demolishes your reasoning.
The word means to see with our heart and mind through the power of God, the Holy Spirit within us. It has also been used past tense, as "they saw" or "have seen", as we find here:
Matthew 4:16 (KJV) The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.
Strong's Greek Dictionary
1492. εἴδω eido (eídō)
Search for G1492 in KJVSL; in KJV; load in ESI.
εἴδω eídō, i'-do
a primary verb; used only in certain past tenses, the others being borrowed from the equivalent G3700 and G3708; properly, to see (literally or figuratively); by implication, (in the perfect tense only) to know:—be aware, behold, × can (+ not tell), consider, (have) know(-ledge), look (on), perceive, see, be sure, tell, understand, wish, wot. Compare G3700.
Christ simply tells ALL of His disciples, whosoever reads His Word that in this life we shall know/understand that Christ has come to earth with the spiritual Kingdom of God, that shall never be of this world. We will only know/understand/perceive this truth through the power of the Holy Spirit of Christ in us. It's what Christ calls receiving "Power from on high"!
LOL.
So, maybe you would be so kind as to explain in what way the curse has lifted? How has marrying and death ended since AD70? How did the "evil age" finish? The rest of us seem to be witnessing another reality.
The Bible teaches us that not everyone is qualified to inherit the perfect state that is coming when Jesus appears. You must be perfected to inherit perfection.
Christ teaches in Luke 20:34-36: “The children of this world [Gr. aion or age] marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world [Gr. aion or age], and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”
It is impossible to miss the constant scriptural comparison between “this world” and “that world” or “this age” and “that age.” There is no additional age recognized. In text reinforces that repeated biblical truth. Those who live in this current evil age are described here as “the children of this world/age” but those who are depicted as being “worthy to obtain that age” to come are described exclusively as “the children of God, being the children of the resurrection” and are said to be “equal unto the angels.” There is no other way of reading this.
This couldn’t be any clearer. This teaching of Christ reinforces the fact that not everyone is qualified to inherit the perfect world to come that arrives with the return of Christ. This narrative totally prohibits mortals and the wicked from populating the new earth. After all, that age is depicted as a reward for the redeemed. It is for those who belong to God. It is for those who know Him personally.
Yes, the nation of Israel, according to promise through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob shall never cease until all that is written comes to pass! The generation that collectively is the whole of Israel, the offspring/stock/kin of Abraham both naturally, through flesh and supernaturally, through the power of God.
Those physically alive on earth shall physically see Christ' returning in the clouds. Those who remain among "the dead" or in unbelief shall also physically see Christ when they are called before the Judgment Throne to give an account before God according to what is found written in the books and the book of life. Those who die in unbelief will not physically see Christ' return. There is no knowledge of Him in the grave. But, like the high Priests that condemned Christ, all of the dead will visibly see Christ when they are judged! When the seventh/last trumpet sounds there shall no longer be delay, time shall be no longer, Christ has come again, the dead shall be called from the graves to be judged and cast into the eternal flames that is the lake of fire and shall be no more.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 (KJV) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Psalm 6:5 (KJV) For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Hebrews 9:27 (KJV) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Revelation 20:7 (KJV) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Revelation 20:11-15 (KJV) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Matthew 26:64 (KJV) Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
'Hereafter' or because of this moment in time the prophesy fulfilled, the countdown, the time for Christ to come again, and the end of all things written including destruction of death and all evil had begun!
Hereafter:
ἄρτι árti, ar'-tee - adverb from a derivative of G142 (compare G740) through the idea of suspension; just now:—this day (hour), hence(-forth), here(-after), hither(-to), (even) now, (this) present ἀπό apó, apo' - a primary particle; "off," i.e. away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation; literal or figurative):—(× here-)after, ago, at, because of, before, by (the space of), for(-th), from, in, (out) of, off, (up-)on(-ce), since, with.
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Christ came just as He promised. In this age of time, He didn't and won't return physically to this earth. But, as I've already shown you, He did indeed come by sending His Spirit to be in His own. When we have the Spirit, we have the Son! The coming of Christ through His Spirit is and has been most assuredly "at hand", "near", entrance into the Kingdom of God is but a spoken Word away. For whosoever hears the gospel and believes have received/experienced, through His Spirit, Christ in/with us.
You read all of Scripture as though the primary purpose for the Word of God is for the progeny of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, called Israel. It seems that you have little if any understanding that God has sent His written Word to the Church (universally) on earth, that they might preach the gospel of Christ to build the Kingdom of God in heaven with people of faith from every nation of this earth. The Church composed of both Jews & Gentiles of faith in Christ has always been the primary purpose for the Bible. "That we might know"!
You think you have spiritual understanding, but in truth, you simply change whatever cannot fit physically into your doctrine, you say must have been spiritually fulfilled in 70 AD. All that you have proven is that you have been captured by false doctrine, and desire to make it spread like a plague to whoever might listen to you.
I apologize that I haven't been able to keep up with everything on here lately, but from what I've read, I think you are doing a very excellent job of showing how these things were all to the Jew (Israel) FIRST, and it's been very instructive. And I consider that the intervening time between Jesus being alive on earth and 70 AD was a kind of transitional period, when the Law was old and obsolete and passing away, and when God longsuffered the unbelief of Israel and gave them the space of that generation to reconsider and repent, before finally judging them. Jesus quoting Daniel 7:13 saying He would come in the clouds of heaven was certainly speaking to the Jews/Israel of that day (firstly) and they knew exactly what He was saying about Himself.
But I hope you'll ask the Lord and look into whether these things were also a pattern for when God finally judges the Gentiles (because Israel is our ensample). Which He hasn't done yet. He dealt with Israel and then the gospel went to the Gentiles in earnest, but He hasn't dealt with the Gentiles yet like He did with Israel. Jesus said Jerusalem would be trodden by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles have been fulfilled.....so the times of the Gentiles will have an end like Israel.....we Gentiles/nations/world will likewise have a time of the end. I believe we've been in the allegorical thousand year reign of Christ 'officially' since 70AD....allegorical for an age....a time of longsuffering the unbelief of the nations and giving them time (space) to reconsider and get saved...this age of grace which we are to account as salvation for those who will be saved of the nations.
History shows how mostly Gentile Christendom rose to rule the nations essentially, as the top dog empire, so to speak. And with our very eyes we can see that the apostasy of the church and worsening sins of Christendom is leading to judgments in the west which have already begun. The same judgments God warned Israel of in her apostasy are happening to the western nations today, and to all those nations at the same time.....the Lord said He would give Israel a spirit of stupor/drunkenness and that she would be ruled by the stranger in her midst. And it was an example and warning/admonishment to the church and Christendom. Well the spirit of political correctness and wokeness has taken hold of many in the west like a cult spirit hive mind, and it has been causing Christendom to begin destroying itself from within and there are more and more "heathen" being given reigns of power and influence in the west, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists etc. Floodgates of people from third world countries have been flooding into the west in recent years and their birthrates are higher than ours. A virtual invasion without weapons (so far)......it is the beginning of God's judgment. And as Israel was diminished as a nation in ancient times, Christendom is under threat of being diminished.
In 1 Cor 15 it says Christ must reign until certain things happen. I don't see that they have happened yet...?
1Co 15:23-28
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Heb 2:8
You have put all things in subjection under his feet.”[fn]
For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet SEE all things put under him.
Is Christ/Messiah still ruling in this age of grace? Not through Israel but through the mostly Gentile church. Do we yet SEE all things conquered and put under His feet, or is His Body on earth still warring in the Spirit and taking ground in His name? (though it seems to have been slowing down in the west) Has death been destroyed yet? Not that we can yet SEE....? Not until He visits the Gentiles a second time, with His wrath for those who reject Him, and salvation from wrath for those who are hid in the cleft of the Rock.
Christ teaches in Luke 20:34-36: “The children of this world [Gr. aion or age] marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world [Gr. aion or age], and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”
The transition from "this age" to "that age" is shown here to occur at the one final future coming of Christ and the resurrection (and glorification), not AD70. Your teachers have manifestly misled you. The conclusion of death and marriage reinforces that we are looking at the introduction of the eternal state, everlasting righteousness and never-ending perfection. This could not be more climactic.
Second Peter must be understood in it historical setting and through the mind of a Jew of that day. First of all, Jesus told His first-century disciples that He would return to THEM as a "thief in the night" (Mat. 24:42ff). In the days of Noah, they were unaware that the flood was coming and it took them by surprise and they perished. In light of that, Jesus warned His disciples right there with Him to "stay awake" because THEY did not know what day their Lord was coming. It would be ridiculous for Him to tell them to stay awake and be ready for something that was not even going to concern them! He tells THEM that just as the master of a house would have been ready if he'd known what "hour" the thief would come, THEY were to be "ready" because "the Son of Man" was going to COME at an "hour" THEY did not expect. Peter is reminding them of that when he uses the same wording: "thief in the night."
I submit to you that the "heavens" Peter is speaking of are metaphoric. Immediately after I say that, people nearly go into shock because with them, unless something is literal, it is wrong. But the Scriptures are filled with symbols and metaphors and figurative language. It is critical that we be able to ascertain what is literal and what is not.
Peter's audience of his day were Jews who were very familiar with the OT writings. They would have easily understood that Peter was using the language of the OT prophets in his use of "heavens." The prophets commonly addressed the people of Israel: “Give ear, O heavens, and I will speak, and let the earth hear the words of my mouth" (Deu. 32:1). Furthermore, the prophets commonly used references to the sun, moon, and stars, and the heavens and earth to express God's judgment or punishment for transgressions. In Levitius 26:14, for example, we find this description of the consequences of disobedience: "I will make your HEAVEN as iron and your EARTH as bronze" (Lev. 26:14). In God's judgment against Babylon, in which He used the Medes as His instrument, it is stated that the HEAVENS would tremble and the EARTH would move out of her place" (Isa.a 13). This is clearly the use of metaphors to portray judgment.
Isaiah described God's judgment is this way: "the EARTH mourns and withers, the EARTH lanquishes and withers . . . the EARTH lies defiled . . . they have transgressed the laws, violated the statutes, broken the everlasting covenant . . . the gladness of the EARTH is banished' (Isa. 24:4-11). Notice the presence of heat and fire: "the inhabitants of the EARTH are SCORCHED." In the following verses we find these descriptions: "For the windows of HEAVEN are opened and the foundations of the EARTH tremble. The EARTH is utterly broken, the EARTH is split apart, the EARTH is violently shaken, the EARTH staggers like a drunken man; it sways like a hut; its transgression lies heavy upon it, and it falls, and will not rise again. On that day the Lord will punish the HOST OF HEAVEN . . . ." (24:19-21). Consider also the words of Nahum: "The MOUNTAINS quake at Him and the HILLS MELT, and the EARTH is BURNED at His presence" (Nahum 1:6).
Jesus HImself used similar language in describing the coming judgment upon aspostate Israel of His day: "there will be signs in sun, moon, and stars, and on the earth" . . . the powers of the HEAVENS will be shaken" (Luke 21:25, 26). God used the Romans as His instruments to bring that judgment in A. D. 70.
I contend that Peter is using that same type of judgment language in his use of "heavens and earth" and the common associated concepts of fire and of things melting. Punishment was coming upon Israel in A. D. 70 by the Romans. Everything pertaining to the Old Covenant, Mosaic Age and Judaism was then about to be abolished in the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. Those were the "elements" (stoicheia) that were to be burned up. It has nothing to do with the physical earth and its chemical make up--not in ANY of its NT usages of that term
.
When the Romans burned the city and the Temple, the heat of the fires was so FERVENT that the gold melted from the walls!
It is not ridiculous at all for Christ to speak these words explicitly, but not exclusively to them. After all before leaving this world, Christ commanded them to "teach all nations", making disciples "teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you", telling them "I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world." Since Christ instructed them "to teach all nations", the world encompasses the whole earth, (not only one age/nation) where nations (Gentiles), those nations that did not yet exist, must also be taught through these first, mostly Jewish disciples, as they remained faithful to go and do all the Lord had commanded of them. Through the beginning with the faithful Jews, the spiritual Kingdom of God would begin to expand exponentially! They were instructed to preach repentance and remission of sins among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem after they were endued with power from on high from the Holy Spirit in them.
Matthew 28:18-20 (KJV) And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Luke 24:47-49 (KJV) And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things. And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
This is all Preterist jibberish. These references above are still speaking about the literal physical natural heavens and earth, albeit asigning figurative attributes to each. Hello!
You render them meaningless cryptic illusions.
Anything goes in Preterist interpretation. Anything that reinforce it's faulty teaching. You have to twixt the plain straightforward meaning of this passage to sustain your position.
Premillennialists have similarly been forced in recent times to align with this nonsense, as 2 Peter 3 forbids their error. They have to spiritualize this natural physical depiction as it clearly eliminates any possible of their imaginary future millennium. Preterists do it because they know the literal physical natural heavens and earth were not eliminated in AD70. Both camps assume this to support their bias doctrinal positions. They deviate from the obvious meaning.
So, you are just repeating what you have been taught. The reality is, everywhere the heavens and earth are coupled together it is always in the context of the literal physical natural heavens and earth.
No worries, Lizbeth. It is hard to keep up.
I'm sorry to bring this up again, but it is important. As I noted before, the Scriptures do not state that Israel was an "ensample" to us. The disobedience of the people in the wilderness under Moses was the example to those of that day, not to us. We can surely draw an application, but that is not the context of that passage. The example was not Israel; it was those in the 40-year wilderness wanderings.
When is the "time of the Gentiles"? You will probably disagree because, like all futurists, you do not accept Jesus' meaning of "this generation." He used that expression 19 times, and He always meant those of His day, His contemporaries. Jesus stated that the "times of the Gentiles" would occur in that very generation of those disciples standing right there with Him. If we consider Daniel's timing, we find this fits the years leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in A. D. 70. During that time, God allowed the Romans to "trod down the city of Jerusalem for the time of its destruction. "Time, times, and half a time (1260 days, 42 months, or 3 1/2 years) coincides perfectly with the time frame of the Roman-Jewish wars--A. D. 67 - A. D. 76 (1260 days, 42 months, 3 1/2 years!). The times of the Gentiles ended at the destruction of the Temple and the city in A. D. 70. Lizbeth: "This generation" means exactly what it means. The answers to your questions lie in that time frame. Approaching this any other way will give you more questions than answers. Will you consider it?
Whatever horrors and calamities are happening in the world right now are nothing much different than those of most past generations. We must refrain from using "newspaper exegesis" whereby we impose things happening today upon the scriptures. The bottom line is that the things Jesus warned about on the Mount of Olives were directed at those very disciples right there with Him. The wars and rumors of wars were of their day. They were to be killed and hated for His name's sake. And they were. They were to see the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet (the surrounding of Jerusalem by armies--Luke 21). They were to flee. History records that when Christians, heeding Jesus' words and the words of the inspired writers, fled the city to the mountains of Pella. All were saved from the coming assault on the city.
First Corinthians 15 is not about physical bodies coming up out of the grave. That is not Paul's point. Notice that it is not the seed (i.e., the physical body) that comes forth from the grave. The seed dies and returns to the dust of the earth, where it remains. The physical body is good, but it is fitted for this world only. We must be given a "new body" that is fitted for heaven. That which comes forth is not like the seed. At the New Birth, we are made a new creation. But before Christ's return as the Great High Priest, having exited the heavenly Holy of Holies in full satisfaction of God's wrath against sin, no one was yet fitted for heaven. As taught by the writer of Hebrews, Christ came the first time to deal with sin (the Cross). He would come a Second time for "salvation" (Heb. 9). What salvation? Believers at that time were saved in that their newness of life was assured; nothing could change it. But it was THEY who were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. We no longer need to be sealed because the promise has come. What was the promise? Full salvation that allowed them to, at death, go immediately into God's presence instead of going to Hades to await resurrection.
Jesus told His disciples right there with Him that when THEY saw all of those things begin to happen, THEY were to look up. Why? Because THEN their salvation drew near. They were already "saved" (and sealed), but at His coming, they would be resurrected to full communion with God. This is resurrection! Paul taught this as well. Writing to the saints at Rome, he said: "The hour has come for you to awake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us than when we first believed. The night is far gone, the day is at hand" (Rom. 13:11, 12). They were saved and sealed, but full salvation awaited them (it was AT HAND in their day). It was that which Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15--that which came to them in A. D. 70 at the comi;ng of the Lord. Hades, the waiting place, was emptied of the "dead ones" (1 Thess. 4).
Who is Israel, Lizbeth? Since Christ came and broke "down the middle wall of partition" between Jew and Greek and made of them ONE NEW MAN, true Israel consists of both Jew and Gentile--both reconciled to God in ONE BODY (Eph. 2:11ff). Paul made this clear when he stated that one is a Jew who is one inwardly. Spiritual Israel, made up of the spiritual seed of Abraham, is circumcised in the heart and not in the flesh. God judged OT Israel once and for all in A. D.. 70. That nation is no more. The nation that calls itself Israel today is a creation of the U. N. and not of God. They are not OT Israel.
The Bible contains many types and antitypes. OT Israel, fleshly circumcision, the Temple, the priesthood, the sacrificial system, the altar, Jerusalem, the land, etc. are all types that have been done away with in the one New Body of both Jew and Gentile (the Church), circumcison of the heart, the spiritual temple, the priesthood of believers, the once-for-all sacrifice of the Lamb of God, the heavenly holy of holies and altar, the New Jerusalem, the kingdom [land]. These are all antitypes. That physical land in the Middle East today is of no biblical consequence.
You wrote: "But now we do not yet SEE all things put under him." Lizbeth, I would encourage you to please pay close attention to the context of passages you refer to and acknowledge the identity of the "we" and the "you," etc. WE are not the WE of Hebrews 2:8. The writer of Hebrews is addressing those of his day. They are the WE. In their day, THEY had not yet seen all things under His feet. But they would. When He came "in a VERY, VERY LITTLE WHILE" (Heb. 10:37) to them.
I'm sorry to bring this up again, but it is important. As I noted before, the Scriptures do not state that Israel was an "ensample" to us. The disobedience of the people in the wilderness under Moses was the example to those of that day, not to us. We can surely draw an application, but that is not the context of that passage. The example was not Israel; it was those in the 40-year wilderness wanderings.
When is the "time of the Gentiles"? You will probably disagree because, like all futurists, you do not accept Jesus' meaning of "this generation." He used that expression 19 times, and He always meant those of His day, His contemporaries. Jesus stated that the "times of the Gentiles" would occur in that very generation of those disciples standing right there with Him. If we consider Daniel's timing, we find this fits the years leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in A. D. 70. During that time, God allowed the Romans to "trod down the city of Jerusalem for the time of its destruction. "Time, times, and half a time (1260 days, 42 months, or 3 1/2 years) coincides perfectly with the time frame of the Roman-Jewish wars--A. D. 67 - A. D. 76 (1260 days, 42 months, 3 1/2 years!). The times of the Gentiles ended at the destruction of the Temple and the city in A. D. 70. Lizbeth: "This generation" means exactly what it means. The answers to your questions lie in that time frame. Approaching this any other way will give you more questions than answers. Will you consider it?
Whatever horrors and calamities are happening in the world right now are nothing much different than those of most past generations. We must refrain from using "newspaper exegesis" whereby we impose things happening today upon the scriptures. The bottom line is that the things Jesus warned about on the Mount of Olives were directed at those very disciples right there with Him. The wars and rumors of wars were of their day. They were to be killed and hated for His name's sake. And they were. They were to see the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet (the surrounding of Jerusalem by armies--Luke 21). They were to flee. History records that when Christians, heeding Jesus' words and the words of the inspired writers, fled the city to the mountains of Pella. All were saved from the coming assault on the city.
First Corinthians 15 is not about physical bodies coming up out of the grave. That is not Paul's point. Notice that it is not the seed (i.e., the physical body) that comes forth from the grave. The seed dies and returns to the dust of the earth, where it remains. The physical body is good, but it is fitted for this world only. We must be given a "new body" that is fitted for heaven. That which comes forth is not like the seed. At the New Birth, we are made a new creation. But before Christ's return as the Great High Priest, having exited the heavenly Holy of Holies in full satisfaction of God's wrath against sin, no one was yet fitted for heaven. As taught by the writer of Hebrews, Christ came the first time to deal with sin (the Cross). He would come a Second time for "salvation" (Heb. 9). What salvation? Believers at that time were saved in that their newness of life was assured; nothing could change it. But it was THEY who were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. We no longer need to be sealed because the promise has come. What was the promise? Full salvation that allowed them to, at death, go immediately into God's presence instead of going to Hades to await resurrection.
Jesus told His disciples right there with Him that when THEY saw all of those things begin to happen, THEY were to look up. Why? Because THEN their salvation drew near. They were already "saved" (and sealed), but at His coming, they would be resurrected to full communion with God. This is resurrection! Paul taught this as well. Writing to the saints at Rome, he said: "The hour has come for you to awake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us than when we first believed. The night is far gone, the day is at hand" (Rom. 13:11, 12). They were saved and sealed, but full salvation awaited them (it was AT HAND in their day). It was that which Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15--that which came to them in A. D. 70 at the comi;ng of the Lord. Hades, the waiting place, was emptied of the "dead ones" (1 Thess. 4).
Who is Israel, Lizbeth? Since Christ came and broke "down the middle wall of partition" between Jew and Greek and made of them ONE NEW MAN, true Israel consists of both Jew and Gentile--both reconciled to God in ONE BODY (Eph. 2:11ff). Paul made this clear when he stated that one is a Jew who is one inwardly. Spiritual Israel, made up of the spiritual seed of Abraham, is circumcised in the heart and not in the flesh. God judged OT Israel once and for all in A. D.. 70. That nation is no more. The nation that calls itself Israel today is a creation of the U. N. and not of God. They are not OT Israel.
The Bible contains many types and antitypes. OT Israel, fleshly circumcision, the Temple, the priesthood, the sacrificial system, the altar, Jerusalem, the land, etc. are all types that have been done away with in the one New Body of both Jew and Gentile (the Church), circumcison of the heart, the spiritual temple, the priesthood of believers, the once-for-all sacrifice of the Lamb of God, the heavenly holy of holies and altar, the New Jerusalem, the kingdom [land]. These are all antitypes. That physical land in the Middle East today is of no biblical consequence.
You wrote: "But now we do not yet SEE all things put under him." Lizbeth, I would encourage you to please pay close attention to the context of passages you refer to and acknowledge the identity of the "we" and the "you," etc. WE are not the WE of Hebrews 2:8. The writer of Hebrews is addressing those of his day. They are the WE. In their day, THEY had not yet seen all things under His feet. But they would. When He came "in a VERY, VERY LITTLE WHILE" (Heb. 10:37) to them.
You do not have one single passage in Scripture that teaches that the heavens and earth figuratively represent "the old covenant Mosaic Age and Judaism" or "their ultimate destruction represents "the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple." You invent that of your own imagination and then foist that upon the sacred text, without a single prooftext teaching such. This is breathtaking. This is delusional.
3 Resurrections
Active Member
No, it is not even possible for those Matt. 27:52-53 resurrected saints to have died again. "...Neither CAN they die anymore, but are like the angels in heaven..." You are merely uttering a common misconception about those raised to life again in the Scriptures dying twice. Can't happen. This is totally contrary to what Scripture says for the bodily-resurrected state. "It is appointed unto men ONCE to die..." , NOT TWICE.
And yes, we do have a record of someone who lived several millennia on earth in a glorified, deathless body. We have the example of Melchizedek, which Hebrews 7:8 testified as still living as that book was being written.
As for all those bodily-resurrected Matthew 27:52-53 saints, these were made "alive", but "remained" on the earth among the church as the resurrected "First-fruits" Paul mentioned in Romans 8:28, the verse you brought up above. Those resurrected "First-fruits" were waiting with the rest of the believers for the (1 Thess. 4) final transport of the resurrected saints into heaven at Christ's return (which came in AD 70). So, none of those individuals resurrected in Scripture are presently on earth today. They were caught up in the sky and taken to heaven together with the bodily returning Christ in AD 70, joining all of the rest of the newly-resurrected saints at that time when the seventh Revelation trumpet sounded. Just as Christ had promised He would return, while some of those He spoke to on earth were still alive to see it happen (Matt. 16:27-28).
My "teacher" is the Word of God. Your comment gives the impression that my understanding comes from those outside of the Scriptures--from the studies of others. While I appeal to the thoughts of others, as we all do, my final conclusions come from my own personal study of God's Word.
According to Scripture itself, A. D. 70 was the "coming of Christ" and the "resurrection." Jesus placed the resurrection in the lifetime of those disciples standing right there with Him. The elect would be gathered from the four winds (resurrection) by the angels. That would happen in that very generation. It is the same gathering that Paul appointed to himself and those of his day in 1 Thessalonians 4. He clearly stated that he and those of his day would meet the Lord in the "air."
Physical death and marriage do not come to end on the earth. The earth has no end.
When Jesus addressed the sin against the Holy Spirit, he stated that it would not be forgiven either in 'this age" or in the age ABOUT TO come. It was about to come in Jesus' own day. At the Advent of the Messiah, the ages were about to change through His atonement. That age of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, sacrifices, and rituals was coming to a close. The writer of Hebrews spoke of this when he wrote that the Old was "growing old, becoming obsolete, and ready to pass away" (Heb. 8:13).
The age about to come was the New Covenant in His blood. Under the Old, all who died went to Sheol/Hades to await resurrection. With the coming of the New, the "dead in Christ" in Hades were to be released from their bondage at His coming--in A. D. 70. The "dead in Christ" rose first and were changed, then those still alive were changed and joined together with them and with Christ (1 Thes. 4). THAT change was the restoration of full fellowship with God lost through the First Adam. Resurrection is not the overcoming of PHYSICAL death. That is not the need of mankind. It is the victory over spiritual death--the death Adam suffered "in the day" that He sinned in the Garden.
Except they were not glorified.
So what about these people have they not died again? Where are they now? Still wandering the earth?
Acts 9
Dorcas Restored to Life
36 At Joppa there was a certain disciple named [i]Tabitha, which is translated [j]Dorcas. This woman was full of good works and charitable deeds which she did. 37 But it happened in those days that she became sick and died. When they had washed her, they laid her in an upper room. 38 And since Lydda was near Joppa, and the disciples had heard that Peter was there, they sent two men to him, imploring him not to delay in coming to them. 39 Then Peter arose and went with them. When he had come, they brought him to the upper room. And all the widows stood by him weeping, showing the tunics and garments which Dorcas had made while she was with them. 40 But Peter put them all out, and knelt down and prayed. And turning to the body he said, “Tabitha, arise.” And she opened her eyes, and when she saw Peter she sat up. 41 Then he gave her his hand and lifted her up; and when he had called the saints and widows, he presented her alive. 42 And it became known throughout all Joppa, and many believed on the Lord. 43 So it was that he stayed many days in Joppa with Simon, a tanner.And
Acts 20
Ministering at Troas
7 Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight. 8 There were many lamps in the upper room where [a]they were gathered together. 9 And in a window sat a certain young man named Eutychus, who was sinking into a deep sleep. He was overcome by sleep; and as Paul continued speaking, he fell down from the third story and was taken up dead. 10 But Paul went down, fell on him, and embracing him said, “Do not trouble yourselves, for his life is in him.” 11 Now when he had come up, had broken bread and eaten, and talked a long while, even till daybreak, he departed. 12 And they brought the young man in alive, and they were not a little comforted.These resurrection events came after Christ ascended.
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