When did the 2nd temple literally initially cease being the holy place?

[Spiritual Israelite]

You may as well apply the prophecy to Jesus on the Cross, as Jesus is the church, both the Jewish and Gentile congregations.

No, Jesus is the cornerstone of the church which has the foundation of the apostles and prophets and includes all who belong to Christ (Ephesians 2:19-22).

 

[IndianaRob]

Who fled to the mountains when seeing Jesus on the cross? Jesus Himself made it clear that when the abomination of desolation was seen, then those in Judea should flee to the mountains.

Im not aware of the Bible saying anything about what the people did during the upheaval of the earth around the murder of Jesus.

I would assume people fled Jerusalem when it started but I can’t say for sure because the Bible doesn’t say one way or another.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Im not aware of the Bible saying anything about what the people did during the upheaval of the earth around the murder of Jesus.

I would assume people fled Jerusalem when it started but I can’t say for sure because the Bible doesn’t say one way or another.

LOL. How could fleeing to the mountains help anyone to escape an earthquake? An earthquake could cause falling boulders and avalanches during an earthquake. Fleeing to the mountains during an earthquake would be a bad idea. Your assumption is based only on your doctrinal bias and not on reason.

Matthew 27:54 So when the centurion and those with him, who were guarding Jesus, saw the earthquake and the things that had happened, they feared greatly, saying, “Truly this was the Son of God!” 55 And many women who followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering to Him, were there looking on from afar, 56 among whom were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee’s sons.

Does it look like anyone who was there when Jesus was crucified fled to the mountains when the earthquake happened? Not at all.

 

[IndianaRob]

LOL. How could fleeing to the mountains help anyone to escape an earthquake? An earthquake could cause falling boulders and avalanches during an earthquake. Fleeing to the mountains during an earthquake would be a bad idea. Your assumption is based only on your doctrinal bias and not on reason.

Matthew 27:54 So when the centurion and those with him, who were guarding Jesus, saw the earthquake and the things that had happened, they feared greatly, saying, “Truly this was the Son of God!” 55 And many women who followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering to Him, were there looking on from afar, 56 among whom were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee’s sons.

Does it look like anyone who was there when Jesus was crucified fled to the mountains when the earthquake happened? Not at all.

The earthquake and unearthed dead bodies were only the start of the days of vengeance.

There’s no way we can know when people fled Jerusalem because the Bible doesn’t tell us.

It seems to me the whole point of that verse is to warn people to not be in Jerusalem during the days of vengeance.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The earthquake and unearthed dead bodies were only the start of the days of vengeance.

What do you mean? You are saying that the abomination of desolation was Christ's death on the cross. Jesus said when they saw the abomination of desolation they would need to then flee to the mountains. No one fled to the mountains upon seeing Jesus die on the cross. Stop trying to make things up to support your doctrine. It just makes you come across as being dishonest and willing to do anything to make scripture say what you want it to say.

There’s no way we can know when people fled Jerusalem because the Bible doesn’t tell us.

I would say it's safe to assume that they fled when seeing Jerusalem surrounded by Roman armies shortly before they destroyed the city and the temple buildings in 70 AD (see Luke 21:20-24).

It seems to me the whole point of that verse is to warn people to not be in Jerusalem during the days of vengeance.

The days of vengeance happened around 70 AD, not at the crucifixion of Christ.

 

[IndianaRob]

What do you mean? You are saying that the abomination of desolation was Christ's death on the cross. Jesus said when they saw the abomination of desolation they would need to then flee to the mountains. No one fled to the mountains upon seeing Jesus die on the cross. Stop trying to make things up to support your doctrine. It just makes you come across as being dishonest and willing to do anything to make scripture say what you want it to say.


I would say it's safe to assume that they fled when seeing Jerusalem surrounded by Roman armies shortly before they destroyed the city and the temple buildings in 70 AD (see Luke 21:20-24).


The days of vengeance happened around 70 AD, not at the crucifixion of Christ.1

Here’s what we 100% know for sure happened when the day of Gods vengeance started.

Psa 18:4 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the floods of ungodly men made me afraid.
Jesus dies on the cross.

Psa 18:5 The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.
Jesus in hell.

Psa 18:6 In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried unto my God: he heard my voice out of his temple, and my cry came before him, even into his ears.
The resurrection of Jesus.

Psa 18:7 Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth.
The earthquake at the resurrection of Jesus.

Psa 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.
Psa 18:9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet.
Verses 8 and 9 God came to earth to avenge the murder of his son.

Psa 18:10 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.
Psa 18:11 He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.
Psa 18:12 At the brightness that was before him his thick clouds passed, hail stones and coals of fire.
Psa 18:13 The LORD also thundered in the heavens, and the Highest gave his voice; hail stones and coals of fire.
Psa 18:14 Yea, he sent out his arrows, and scattered them; and he shot out lightnings, and discomfited them.
Psa 18:15 Then the channels of waters were seen, and the foundations of the world were discovered at thy rebuke, O LORD, at the blast of the breath of thy nostrils.
Verses 10-15 God is pouring out his wrath on the earth.

I personally don’t see 70 AD anywhere in those verses.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Here’s what we 100% know for sure happened when the day of Gods vengeance started.

Psa 18:4 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the floods of ungodly men made me afraid.
Jesus dies on the cross.

Psa 18:5 The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.
Jesus in hell.

Psa 18:6 In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried unto my God: he heard my voice out of his temple, and my cry came before him, even into his ears.
The resurrection of Jesus.

Psa 18:7 Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth.
The earthquake at the resurrection of Jesus.

Psa 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.
Psa 18:9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet.
Verses 8 and 9 God came to earth to avenge the murder of his son.

Psa 18:10 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.
Psa 18:11 He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.
Psa 18:12 At the brightness that was before him his thick clouds passed, hail stones and coals of fire.
Psa 18:13 The LORD also thundered in the heavens, and the Highest gave his voice; hail stones and coals of fire.
Psa 18:14 Yea, he sent out his arrows, and scattered them; and he shot out lightnings, and discomfited them.
Psa 18:15 Then the channels of waters were seen, and the foundations of the world were discovered at thy rebuke, O LORD, at the blast of the breath of thy nostrils.
Verses 10-15 God is pouring out his wrath on the earth.

I personally don’t see 70 AD anywhere in those verses.

How about in these verses which actually specifically refer to the days of vengeance?

Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Do you not recognize the above as referring to what happened just before and during 70 AD? Clearly, none of these things happened when Jesus was crucified.

 

[IndianaRob]

How about in these verses which actually specifically refer to the days of vengeance?

Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Do you not recognize the above as referring to what happened just before and during 70 AD? Clearly, none of these things happened when Jesus was crucified.

If your looking for the title “These be the days of vengeance” in any Old Testament passage, you’re not going to find it.

But when you read about God coming down from heaven to avenge the murder of His son, you don’t need a title to understand that those things in Psalm 18 are describing the vengeance of God on the people that murdered Jesus.

Was 70AD part of the days of vengeance? Maybe but probably not. Certainly not part of the supernatural events of Psalm 18.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If your looking for the title “These be the days of vengeance” in any Old Testament passage, you’re not going to find it.

I showed you how Jesus understood it. Is that not enough for you? Do you think He didn't know what He was talking about?

But when you read about God coming down from heaven to avenge the murder of His son, you don’t need a title to understand that those things in Psalm 18 are describing the vengeance of God on the people that murdered Jesus.

Was 70AD part of the days of vengeance? Maybe but probably not. Certainly not part of the supernatural events of Psalm 18.

Do you deny that Luke 21:20-24 talks about things related to what happened around 70 AD? Jesus specifically said that those were the days of vengeance.

 

[covenantee]

The earthquake and unearthed dead bodies were only the start of the days of vengeance.

There’s no way we can know when people fled Jerusalem because the Bible doesn’t tell us.

It seems to me the whole point of that verse is to warn people to not be in Jerusalem during the days of vengeance.

The historical account of the Judaean Christians' flight is given by Eusebius of Caesarea, acclaimed Father of Church History:

The people of the Church in Jerusalem were commanded by an oracle given by revelation before the war to those in the city who were worthy of it to depart and dwell in one of the cities of Perea which they called Pella. To it those who believed on Christ traveled from Jerusalem…”

— Eusebius, Church History 3, 5, 3

This occurred prior to 70 AD, circa 66 AD.

 

[IndianaRob]

I showed you how Jesus understood it. Is that not enough for you? Do you think He didn't know what He was talking about?


Do you deny that Luke 21:20-24 talks about things related to what happened around 70 AD? Jesus specifically said that those were the days of vengeance.

The Bible doesn’t record anything that happened in 70 AD so I seriously doubt Luke is talking about anything that happened in 70 AD.

I’m reasonably sure the armies surrounding Jerusalem mentioned in Luke is Joel’s army.

 

[covenantee]

The Bible doesn’t record anything that happened in 70 AD so I seriously doubt Luke is talking about anything that happened in 70 AD.

I’m reasonably sure the armies surrounding Jerusalem mentioned in Luke is Joel’s army.

Matthew 24
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

The fulfillment of Matthew 24:2 happened in 70 AD.

 

[IndianaRob]

Matthew 24
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

The fulfillment of Matthew 24:2 happened in 70 AD.

I know the Bible talks about the destruction of Jerusalem but the Bible doesn’t doesn’t record any events that took place in 70 AD.

Anything we know or think we know about 70 AD is pure speculation that comes from history. As the famous quote goes “History is a lie agreed upon”.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Matthew 24
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

The fulfillment of Matthew 24:2 happened in 70 AD.

Let it be clear: what happened was not in 70 AD—that is a grave misunderstanding of Scripture! The cutoff of God’s people took place at the Cross, when they rejected and crucified their Messiah, the Prince (Daniel 9:26). Christ Himself spoke of the temple “AS” His Old Testament congregation of Israel, with people as the stones falling (Matthew 24:1–2). This was the judgment of the unbelieving congregation, which ended their kingdom representative, making way for the rebuilding of the congregation in three days, the CHURCH with the stones of the New Testament Saints over the fallen stones (1 Peter 2:4–5). Just as the wild branch are graft in the same place of the fallen branch of Olive Tree. Selah!

Therefore, the rest of Matthew 24 is entirely about the fallen New Testament Congregation during the Great Tribulation of God’s people right before His Second Coming, not some historical event in 70 AD. Anyone teaching otherwise twists God’s Word and leads souls astray (2 Peter 3:16). Let there be no doubt: the Olivet Discourse speaks to spiritual reality, not temporal history.

 

[covenantee]

I know the Bible talks about the destruction of Jerusalem but the Bible doesn’t doesn’t record any events that took place in 70 AD.

Anything we know or think we know about 70 AD is pure speculation that comes from history. As the famous quote goes “History is a lie agreed upon”.

The temple was destroyed in 70 AD.

Why don't you think that was a fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy?

The Judaean Christians heeded Jesus' warnings and fled and survived.

Why don't you think that was a fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy?

 

[covenantee]

View attachment 68894

Let it be clear: what happened was not in 70 AD—that is a grave misunderstanding of Scripture! The cutoff of God’s people took place at the Cross, when they rejected and crucified their Messiah, the Prince (Daniel 9:26). Christ Himself spoke of the temple “AS” His Old Testament congregation of Israel, with people as the stones falling (Matthew 24:1–2). This was the judgment of the unbelieving congregation, which ended their kingdom representative, making way for the rebuilding of the congregation in three days, the CHURCH with the stones of the New Testament Saints over the fallen stones (1 Peter 2:4–5). Just as the wild branch are graft in the same place of the fallen branch of Olive Tree. Selah!

Therefore, the rest of Matthew 24 is entirely about the fallen New Testament Congregation during the Great Tribulation of God’s people right before His Second Coming, not some historical event in 70 AD. Anyone teaching otherwise twists God’s Word and leads souls astray (2 Peter 3:16). Let there be no doubt: the Olivet Discourse speaks to spiritual reality, not temporal history.

Take your hyperspiritualized gnosticative dispensationally futurized psychotic nonsense elsewhere.

And don't forget about those pesky Judaean Christians who heeded Jesus' warnings and fled and survived.

Don't forget that they were immeasurably smarter than to listen to you.

 

[IndianaRob]

The temple was destroyed in 70 AD.

Why don't you think that was a fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy?

Because Joels army came and surrounded Jerusalem well before 70 AD. We have no idea what happened in 70AD.

If I’m not mistaken, preterists say Josephus reported a resurrection and the appearance of Christ in 70AD. I could be wrong on that, it’s been a while since I debated a preterist.

I put no stock on any accounts of 70AD. Maybe an earthquake destroyed Jerusalem at that time… we don’t know because it’s not in the bibleZ

 

[covenantee]

Because Joels army came and surrounded Jerusalem well before 70 AD. We have no idea what happened in 70AD.

If I’m not mistaken, preterists say Josephus reported a resurrection and the appearance of Christ in 70AD. I could be wrong on that, it’s been a while since I debated a preterist.

I put no stock on any accounts of 70AD. Maybe an earthquake destroyed Jerusalem at that time… we don’t know because it’s not in the bibleZ

Where in Scripture do we find your "Joels army"?

 

[TribulationSigns]

Take your hyperspiritualized gnosticative dispensationally futurized nonsense elsewhere.

Oh yes, how original—dismissing the Word as 'gnosticative dispensational nonsense.' Truly, your creativity astounds me. I guess facts just don’t suit your taste, so calling them fancy names is easier than actually wrestling with the Truth.

And don't forget about those pesky Judaean Christians who heeded Jesus' warnings and fled and survived.

Ah yes, the classic ‘70 AD escapee’ theory—how convenient to turn Scripture into a history lesson you wish were true. Funny how you manage to get the Jews, Judea, the army, and the city all wrong while insisting you’ve nailed Christ’s prophecy. But here’s the kicker: Matthew 24 isn’t a dusty archaeology assignment—it’s a blueprint for the New Testament congregation navigating spiritual deception. You can cling to your 70 AD fairy tale all you want, but it won’t change what the text actually says.

 

[covenantee]

Oh yes, how original—dismissing the Word as 'gnosticative dispensational nonsense.' Truly, your creativity astounds me. I guess facts just don’t suit your taste, so calling them fancy names is easier than actually wrestling with the Truth.



Ah yes, the classic ‘70 AD escapee’ theory—how convenient to turn Scripture into a history lesson you wish were true. Funny how you manage to get the Jews, Judea, the army, and the city all wrong while insisting you’ve nailed Christ’s prophecy. But here’s the kicker: Matthew 24 isn’t a dusty archaeology assignment—it’s a blueprint for the New Testament congregation navigating spiritual deception. You can cling to your 70 AD fairy tale all you want, but it won’t change what the text actually says.

The Judaean Christians.

Not one hyperspiritualized gnosticative dispensationally futurized psychotic among them.

Immeasurably smarter than you.