When did the universal Church first mentioned in 110AD stop being universal?

[epostle1]

I guess we'll see at the Bema Seat who ise there, you or mjr. I can't wait, can you?

same here. I actually hate church. I hate everything about it. I always did. there was always something about religion that irks me.

won't get you into heaven though. what gets you into heaven kepha?

I am not talking about what gets you into heaven, I am giving examples of what constitutes a good work. All good works, in order to be good, must be done in faith in Christ through His grace.

but on the finished work of the cross?

The "finished work of the cross" should not be reduced to a parroted slogan and an all purpose rebuttal to anything you don't like. I can talk about the finished work of the cross at length, but that is not the discussion. Faith and good works is the discussion.

 

[bbyrd009]

but Jesus did plan for one man to be his royal delegate on earth

yikes

 

[Heb 13:8]

I guess we'll see at the Bema Seat who ise there, you or mjr. I can't wait, can you?

same here. I actually hate church. I hate everything about it. I always did. there was always something about religion that irks me.

won't get you into heaven though. what gets you into heaven kepha?

I am not talking about what gets you into heaven, I am giving examples of what constitutes a good work. All good works, in order to be good, must be done in faith in Christ through His grace.

but on the finished work of the cross?

The "finished work of the cross" should not be reduced to a parroted slogan and an all purpose rebuttal to anything you don't like. I can talk about the finished work of the cross at length, but that is not the discussion. Faith and good works is the discussion.







Wouldn't you rather know how to get into heaven instead of depending on religion. Aren't you tired of being lied too.

 

[mjrhealth]

Faith and good works is the discussion.

Faith in Him and his works, its not about us its all about HIM>

 

[bbyrd009]

I guess we'll see at the Bema Seat who ise there, you or mjr. I can't wait, can you?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3J_h1GrogY&index=8&list=PLzMamFjYdWu9cNL2-aV_wWmy6vNJKfvyq

 

[epostle1]

Wouldn't you rather know how to get into heaven instead of depending on religion. Aren't you tired of being lied too.

What you call my religion doesn't exist. You have a cartoon version. 99% of what you think the Church teaches is false. Everything that is true in your religion came from the Catholic Church. What I get tired of is the endless lies of anti-Catholics.

THE FINISHED WORK OF THE CROSS​

Matt. 26:29; Mark 14:25 - Jesus is celebrating the Passover seder meal with the apostles which requires them to drink four cups of wine. But Jesus only presents the first three cups. He stops at the Third Cup (called “Cup of Blessing” - that is why Paul in 1 Cor. 10:16 uses the phrase “Cup of Blessing” to refer to the Eucharist – he ties the seder meal to the Eucharistic sacrifice). But Jesus conspicuously tells his apostles that He is omitting the Fourth Cup called the “Cup of Consummation.” The Gospel writers point this critical omission of the seder meal out to us to demonstrate that the Eucharistic sacrifice and the sacrifice on the cross are one and the same sacrifice, and the sacrifice would not be completed until Jesus drank the Fourth Cup on the cross.

John 19:29; cf. Matt. 27:48; Mark 15:36; - Jesus is provided wine (the Fourth Cup) on a hyssop branch which was used to sprinkle the lambs' blood in Exodus 12:22. This ties Jesus' sacrifice to the Passover lambs which had to be consumed in the seder meal which was ceremonially completed by drinking the Cup of Consummation. Then in John 19:30, Jesus says, “It is consummated.”(finished) The sacrifice began in the upper room and was completed on the cross. God’s love for humanity is made manifest.

Protestants are fond of saying that Catholics reject "the finished work of Christ" since Catholics reject Salvation by Faith Alone. A popular text they appeal to is John 19:30, which mentions the final words of Jesus on the Cross, "It is finished!" By this, they suggest Christ did everything necessary for our salvation, that He paid everything, all that's left is for us to believe. To deny this, they say, is to deny the Gospel. While at first this might sound convincing, it's an unfortunate and serious distortion of a beautiful text.

The first thing I'd suggest people think about is that Jesus said "It is finished" before He actually died and before He Resurrected. If someone were to push this too far in the wrong way, it would end up saying the Resurrection and even the Death itself wasn't necessary. (Note: Calvinists technically deny the sufficiency of the Cross, they just don't realize it.) Given this, there needs to be a more careful approach to the text.

What many don't know is that there is actually a very good explanation to this text that can be discerned simply by examining the context:
28 After this, Jesus, knowing that all was now finished, said (to fulfill the Scripture), “I thirst.” 29 A jar full of sour wine stood there, so they put a sponge full of the sour wine on a hyssop branch and held it to his mouth. 30 When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, “It is finished,” and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
Notice that the focus of this event was not about Jesus paying the full penalty for sin, but rather about fulfilling an Old Testament prophecy. It was when Jesus received the sour wine (vinegar) that He spoke these words, fulfilling the set up from verse 28. In fact, the Greek word for "finished" only appears twice in John, in verse 19:28 and 19:30, under the same verbal form (tetelestai), strongly suggesting the two go together. And the context shows that a few other Old Testament prophecies were also going to be fulfilled (John 19:31-37). So it should really be understood as "It is fulfilled," or more traditionally, "It is Consummated."

The "fulfill" ("consummated") reading also makes better sense of the Greek term used (see how it's used in Luke 18:31 and Acts 13:29). In the 26 verses the word appears in, only twice is it used to refer to payment, and even in these two verse it only refers to paying taxes (Mt 17:24; Rom 13:6) and not some full payment. In virtually every other verse it's used, it means "fulfill" or "conclude". Given this, it is absolutely astonishing the way many Protestants will over-reach with this word to make it suggest a financial transaction of "payment in full" and completely ignore the Biblical evidence available.

This is not to suggest that the "It is Consummated" doesn't have a deeper significance than just saying "this one prophecy was fulfilled," but rather that Christ's death is to be understood as the Old Testament said it would happen. For example, Protestants love to point to Jesus on the Cross saying "My God, why have You abandoned me," and claim this verse proves the Father's wrath was poured out on Jesus. But any alert reader would know Jesus was intoning Psalm 22, which clearly is speaking of David/Jesus being persecuted by enemies and not being rescued (immediately) by God. This same kind of distortion is happening when Protestants quote "It is finished."

In the case of "I thirst," the cross-reference given for this is Psalm 69:21, which is a Messianic Psalm talking about how David was persecuted and insulted by his fellow Jews and now how Jesus is persecuted and insulted by the Jews. This is not to suggest that the "It is Consummated" doesn't have a deeper significance than just saying "this one prophecy was fulfilled," but rather that Christ's death is to be understood as the Old Testament said it would happen.

This has nothing to do with taking someone's punishment or the Father's wrath being dumped on them.
source

 

[bbyrd009]

nice. As a Southerner who started at the "it is finished" end i would say that i have moved much closer to your pov there, but recognize that there is a sense in which a little leaven leavens the whole lump, and that there is a sense in which none of my very best works will help Christ bring the kingdom to earth, too. Christ does not need my help to do that. Nonetheless, we are the Body of Christ, and in a collective sense, we are the workers in the vineyard, sowing and reaping. So i think it is good to recognize the tension there, rather than attempt to resolve it or deny it.

 

[epostle1]

Does the Resurrection play an essential role in our justification? Or an accidental one?

 

[bbyrd009]

or a symbolic one

 

[Heb 13:8]

What you call my religion doesn't exist. You have a cartoon version. 99% of what you think the Church teaches is false. Everything that is true in your religion came from the Catholic Church. What I get tired of is the endless lies of anti-Catholics.

I don't have religion kepha. I have Jesus Christ. Salvation isn't in a book, it's in a person.

 

[epostle1]

I don't have religion kepha. I have Jesus Christ. Salvation isn't in a book, it's in a person.

I'll retract and rephrase:

What you call my religion doesn't exist. You have a cartoon version. 99% of what you think the Church teaches is false. Everything that is true in your individualized private anti-church system, which doesn't leave much, came from the Catholic Church. What I get tired of is the endless lies of anti-Catholics.

You bugged me about the off topic "finished work of the cross" twice, so I wrote a long post on it. You could have commented on that but instead you continued with the same meaningless condescension you started with.

You said:

Jesus teaches justification by belief and faith. Rom 10:10 NIV. don't you know? Jesus + 0. .

This doesn't cancel good works in Christ. "Belief", “pisteuo Gk.” means to obey.
When the English translations of the Greek New Testament were made in the 1526-1611 period, the “difficult Greek in which the New Testament is written…still held mysteries for” English scholars. One of those mysteries was the Greek word pisteuo in John 3:16. In over 200 instances of pisteuo in the New Testament, not once did the King James Bible render it as obey. (See Strong’s Concor- dance.) However, scholars now realize obey was a common meaning of pisteuo in ancient Greek. Obey certainly was the meaning of pisteuo in John 3:36. Yet, this obedience salvation formula is identically repeated in John 3:16.

2 John likewise quoted Jesus saying in total accord:
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good [things], unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil [things], unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:28-29 KJV).

John 3:36; Rom. 1:5, 6:17; 15:18; 16:26; 2 Cor. 9:13; 1 Thess. 1:3; 2 Thess. 1:11; 1 Peter 2:7-8; Heb. 5:9; cf. Rev. 3:10; Ex. 19:5 – this faith must also be an “obedient faith” and a “work of faith.” Obedience means persevering in good works to the end.

2 Cor. 10:15 – this faith must also increase as a result of our obedience, as Paul hopes for in this verse. Obedience is achieved not by faith alone, but by doing good works.

Gal. 5:6 – thus, the faith that justifies us is “faith working through love,” not faith alone. This is one of the best summaries of Catholic teaching. Faith and love (manifested by works) are always connected. Faith (a process of thought) and love (an action) are never separated in the Scriptures. Cf. Eph. 3:17; 1 Thess. 3:6,12-13; 2 Thess. 1:3; 1 John 3:23; Rev. 2:4-5,19. Further, all faith (initial and perfected) are gratuitous gifts from God, and not earned or merited by any human action. God effects everything, both the willing and the achievement. But God also requires human action, which is necessary to perfect our faith.

James 2:17,26 - James clearly teaches that faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. Works are a cause, not just an effect, of our justification because good works achieve and increase our justification before God. Scripture never says anything about “saving faith.” Protestants cannot show us from the Scriptures that “works” qualify the “faith” into saving faith. Instead, here and elsewhere, the Scriptures teach that justification is achieved only when “faith and works” act together. Scripture puts no qualifier on faith. Scripture also never says that faith “leads to works.” Faith is faith and works are works (James 2:18). They are distinct (mind and action), and yet must act together in order to receive God’s unmerited gift of justification.

John 3:16 - justification is ongoing, not a one-time event. God so loved (past) the world, that He gave (past) His only Son, that whoever believes (ongoing) in Him may have eternal life. The word “believes” is “pisteuo” in Greek which necessarily includes obedience throughout one’s life. This is proved by 1 Peter 2:7-8 which also uses “pisteuo” (to obey) and “apitheo” (to disobey). The same word “pisteuo” is used in many other verses about “believing in Christ” such as John 3:36; 5:24; Rom. 4:24; 10:9-10; cf. Rom. 1:5,16; 6:17; 16:26; 1 John 5:13 (often used by Protestants to support their “faith alone” theology). To “believe” means to “obey” throughout one’s life; it is not a one-time acceptance of Jesus as Savior.
Justification
Faith alone, absent from love and hope, is a false man made tradition, depending on how "faith" is used.
Salvation by works (apart from Christ) is another anti-Catholic insult.

typo: 2 Chron. 7:7 should be 2 Chron. 7:1

 

[bbyrd009]

Mary is the new ark of the covenant? Yikes. Guess the flesh profits something after all huh. Lol.

I don't have religion kepha. I have Jesus Christ. Salvation isn't in a book, it's in a person.

yet i read "there is no condemnation in those who are in Christ," yet you are condemning me of being an "unbeliever" on another thread, while at the same time admitting ignorance of my testimony?

You think you got that from Jesus?

 

[mjrhealth]

Righteousness before God is mine NOW.

Amen to that, so many tryin to put on there own.

 

[Heb 13:8]

I'll retract and rephrase:

What you call my religion doesn't exist. You have a cartoon version. 99% of what you think the Church teaches is false. Everything that is true in your individualized private anti-church system, which doesn't leave much, came from the Catholic Church. What I get tired of is the endless lies of anti-Catholics.

You bugged me about the off topic "finished work of the cross" twice, so I wrote a long post on it. You could have commented on that but instead you continued with the same meaningless condescension you started with.

You said:
This doesn't cancel good works in Christ. "Belief", “pisteuo Gk.” means to obey.
When the English translations of the Greek New Testament were made in the 1526-1611 period, the “difficult Greek in which the New Testament is written…still held mysteries for” English scholars. One of those mysteries was the Greek word pisteuo in John 3:16. In over 200 instances of pisteuo in the New Testament, not once did the King James Bible render it as obey. (See Strong’s Concor- dance.) However, scholars now realize obey was a common meaning of pisteuo in ancient Greek. Obey certainly was the meaning of pisteuo in John 3:36. Yet, this obedience salvation formula is identically repeated in John 3:16.

2 John likewise quoted Jesus saying in total accord:
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good [things], unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil [things], unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:28-29 KJV).

John 3:36; Rom. 1:5, 6:17; 15:18; 16:26; 2 Cor. 9:13; 1 Thess. 1:3; 2 Thess. 1:11; 1 Peter 2:7-8; Heb. 5:9; cf. Rev. 3:10; Ex. 19:5 – this faith must also be an “obedient faith” and a “work of faith.” Obedience means persevering in good works to the end.

2 Cor. 10:15 – this faith must also increase as a result of our obedience, as Paul hopes for in this verse. Obedience is achieved not by faith alone, but by doing good works.

Gal. 5:6 – thus, the faith that justifies us is “faith working through love,” not faith alone. This is one of the best summaries of Catholic teaching. Faith and love (manifested by works) are always connected. Faith (a process of thought) and love (an action) are never separated in the Scriptures. Cf. Eph. 3:17; 1 Thess. 3:6,12-13; 2 Thess. 1:3; 1 John 3:23; Rev. 2:4-5,19. Further, all faith (initial and perfected) are gratuitous gifts from God, and not earned or merited by any human action. God effects everything, both the willing and the achievement. But God also requires human action, which is necessary to perfect our faith.

James 2:17,26 - James clearly teaches that faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. Works are a cause, not just an effect, of our justification because good works achieve and increase our justification before God. Scripture never says anything about “saving faith.” Protestants cannot show us from the Scriptures that “works” qualify the “faith” into saving faith. Instead, here and elsewhere, the Scriptures teach that justification is achieved only when “faith and works” act together. Scripture puts no qualifier on faith. Scripture also never says that faith “leads to works.” Faith is faith and works are works (James 2:18). They are distinct (mind and action), and yet must act together in order to receive God’s unmerited gift of justification.

John 3:16 - justification is ongoing, not a one-time event. God so loved (past) the world, that He gave (past) His only Son, that whoever believes (ongoing) in Him may have eternal life. The word “believes” is “pisteuo” in Greek which necessarily includes obedience throughout one’s life. This is proved by 1 Peter 2:7-8 which also uses “pisteuo” (to obey) and “apitheo” (to disobey). The same word “pisteuo” is used in many other verses about “believing in Christ” such as John 3:36; 5:24; Rom. 4:24; 10:9-10; cf. Rom. 1:5,16; 6:17; 16:26; 1 John 5:13 (often used by Protestants to support their “faith alone” theology). To “believe” means to “obey” throughout one’s life; it is not a one-time acceptance of Jesus as Savior.
Justification
Faith alone, absent from love and hope, is a false man made tradition, depending on how "faith" is used.
Salvation by works (apart from Christ) is another anti-Catholic insult.

typo: 2 Chron. 7:7 should be 2 Chron. 7:1

Underline: All you need is Jesus Christ, some prefer the Bible though

John 5:39-40 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

Mary is the new ark of the covenant? Yikes. Guess the flesh profits something after all huh. Lol.
yet i read "there is no condemnation in those who are in Christ," yet you are condemning me of being an "unbeliever" on another thread, while at the same time admitting ignorance of my testimony?

You think you got that from Jesus?

lol, and still no testimony. you only fool yourself.

 

[bbyrd009]

aww, you still think i owe you some testimony or something, how cute. i forgive you though. have a nice evening.

 

[Heb 13:8]

aww, you still think i owe you some testimony or something, how cute. i forgive you though. have a nice evening.

Christians are supposed to teach people how to obtain eternal life. How do I do that.

 

[bbyrd009]

Christians are supposed to teach people how to obtain eternal life. How do I do that.

well, you just have to walk out of death, and into life. Practically speaking, you become Life-centered, Creation centered, rather than death-centered, which is where i come from too ok, from trying to enforce a Christian Legal system. This will manifest in understanding that you are the Body of Christ, and you have His Spirit available to you right now, and right now is all you will ever have, because you do not know where you come from, and you do not know where you are going.

You will know when you have done this because you will no longer condemn people out of hand for failing some measure you have arbitrarily enacted; or at least you will realize when you are doing that, and you will apologize. Being here now is an awesome and difficult responsibility, and i'm not real good in it myself yet, it takes a completely different grasp of faith, to be like out in the air, trusting on the Breath, the next thing you hear, there is eternal life.

Eternal Life is in your next decision, and then the one after that. You are reaping, right now, what you have been sowing, and there is no escape from this, ok, Jesus is not going to come give you a "soft landing," there are none of Ezekiel's "pillows," and after all, who killed the Kennedys? Don't be deceived little children. Those rituals did not mean a thing, ok. Don't let someone else define "eternal" for you.

 

[Heb 13:8]

well, you just have to walk out of death, and into life. Practically speaking, you become Life-centered, Creation centered, rather than death-centered, which is where i come from too ok, from trying to enforce a Christian Legal system. This will manifest in understanding that you are the Body of Christ, and you have His Spirit available to you right now, and right now is all you will ever have, because you do not know where you come from, and you do not know where you are going.

You will know when you have done this because you will no longer condemn people out of hand for failing some measure you have arbitrarily enacted; or at least you will realize when you are doing that, and you will apologize. Being here now is an awesome and difficult responsibility, and i'm not real good in it myself yet, it takes a completely different grasp of faith, to be like out in the air, trusting on the Breath, the next thing you hear, there is eternal life.

Eternal Life is in your next decision, and then the one after that. You are reaping, right now, what you have been sowing, and there is no escape from this, ok, Jesus is not going to come give you a "soft landing," there are none of Ezekiel's "pillows," and after all, who killed the Kennedys? Don't be deceived little children. Those rituals did not mean a thing, ok. Don't let someone else define "eternal" for you.

What scripture would help me better understand how to obtain eternal life.

 

[bbyrd009]

What scripture would help me better understand how to obtain eternal life.

hmm. you have been steeped in that, ok, the Law, long enough, and that is going to serve you. but It will not help you step out on the air. This is like a grasping that you are responsible for manifesting now, and we don't like being in now much. But just think about it, i mean it only makes common sense that those you will wish to be someday are risking their lives in schemes of peaceful resistance. People who have picked up their crosses generally don't need any introduction. You already know their names, they are 3 letter cliches, or have names like mahatma or mujica, just follow them.

 

[Heb 13:8]

hmm. you have been steeped in that, ok, the Law, long enough, and that is going to serve you. but It will not help you step out on the air. This is like a grasping that you are responsible for manifesting now, and we don't like being in now much. But just think about it, i mean it only makes common sense that those you will wish to be someday are risking their lives in schemes of peaceful resistance. People who have picked up their crosses generally don't need any introduction. You already know their names, they are 3 letter cliches, or have names like mahatma or mujica, just follow them.

and yet, no scripture...........