When did the universal Church first mentioned in 110AD stop being universal?

[bbyrd009]

Anarchy defined: a state of disorder due to absence or non-recognition of authority


Lol, like what we got now is a good definition of "order" or something, snarf.

 

[bbyrd009]

look, i think it is great when a Catholic finally opens a Bible, ok, because that is how a Catholic turns into a Christian. You are going to come to see that your priest has no answers for you, that are not death-centric hooey, and you are going to have to forget everything those guys have told you about Scripture and start over, but it isn't like you are starting from complete ignorance at that point--which might be better, for some--if/when you grasp the message that Paul was trying to convey, which is not that he was waiting to die to be with Jesus ok.

I might suggest that you avoid the Pentecostals, as they are...well, a popular alternative death-centered religion for wandering x Catholics, i guess, just like Catholicism seems to be for lapsed Pentecostals; but go as you are led.

See that you have not been directed to follow Christ's explicit instructions, and you got no answers for me where it counts because you cannot find anyone who has followed Christ's explicit instructions, because once you follow Christ's explicit instructions, you are going to be all done with death cults, and religion in general is going to be redefined for you. See that, just like your misconception that Anarchy has now become Chaos, somehow, when it is not, all of the other important definitions have been corrupted for you, so that you cannot practically have a conversation with anyone who does not hold corrupted definitions now. I could list 100 at least, religion has been turned into "what God wants for you," country has come to mean "nation," when that is demonstrably ridiculous, "eternal life" has come to mean "when you die, if you do exactly as i say," etc, on down the line, none of these definitions supported by a holistic view of the Bible, ok.

Now, you have accused me, most recently, of saying something "unScriptural," but i am noticing now that even though i have asked for what that is, you got no answer. And guess what, your priest doesn't either, ok. I don't mean to be rude here, but he is just a guy who has found what he sought, and you are going to have to make a decision to follow him, and studiously avoid the Bible, except when some approved guy spoon feeds It to you, and forget all about your first love, and continue believing that Jesus is bodily coming back to save you from your snakebit condition, or bodily coming most of the way back to take you to an Eternal Party in the Sky, or whatever the heck doctrine people get ahold of that makes it impossible for them to see that the Kingdom is here, right now, in the Body of Christ, Who has made His Spirit available to anyone who seeks Him, and comes to Understand I AM, and rectifies all of those verses that your priest has such yack answers for, if you even get an answer, which notice i am not getting one, and i am not going to get one ok, this is not my first rodeo, or the first time that i have gotten no answers to my Scriptural quotes, and when it gets too uncomfortable for you here, and i get banned for this, it will not be my last, either. I got plenty of other towns to go to, ok.

So please take this in the spirit intended, i know it isn't pleasant to contemplate that everything you think you know is a lie, and i can warn you with confidence that if you keep reading the Bible, you are going to be following in the illustrious footsteps of all the ex-Catholics in history, ok. Go read some Matthew Fox, or BAM find what the Spirit leads you to, or even go talk to your priest, bring him your questions, and be prepared to read his face, and you will easily see one of the only two things that could possibly be happening in his spirit, because he is a seeker, too; he has given up and accepted his lot, and must now invent or accept ever more nebulous explanations for the Scripture that he understands only too well, or he has some of the same questions you do, and cannot get acceptable answers to them, like you will not be able to, and if you are discerning you might read the answer in his face.

And i do not mean to demean him in any way, ok, he is just a guy on a path, just like you, and he is also being confronted daily with the truth, and coming to realize that all of the things he has been assured that he can know he does not really know at all, of course, and he knows that he does not know, now, but that is a big cliff to step off of, especially surrounded by the secure arms of the RCC, and he can read that the Christian walk is just not what has been advertised to him, at all, and it is obvious to him that he is not doing it, every time he opens a Bible, like it will be to you very shortly, if you keep opening It.

 

[bbyrd009]

You might start by confronting this "the headquarters of Christ's Church is in Rome" thing, go find that in Scripture, if you can. Best of luck to you guys.

 

[BreadOfLife]

well, you characterize it as "non-Scriptural," but give no examples, so i would ask for an example, and we will see. If it is confusing then the accepted method is "Hey, i don't get this part here, '_______,' could you rephrase that?" But i don't see this being asked, so i can respond.

i mean, not to put too fine a point on it here, but a Catholic telling me that i am non-Scriptural is kind of...well...i mean the cliche goes "Catholics are encouraged to not read the Bible," so you are working uphill here, sorry. And what Bible you do have has come to you the exact way that Paul condemned, so the hill becomes a cliff imo, and so now we need pitons and ropes and stuff.

Actually - what IS funny is an anti-Catholic claiming to be knowledgeable of Scriptural.
THAT'S a hot one . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

You might start by confronting this "the headquarters of Christ's Church is in Rome" thing, go find that in Scripture, if you can. Best of luck to you guys.

It's right here:

Matt 16:18-19
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever YOU bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever YOU loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

John 16:12-15
“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to ALL truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to YOU the things that are coming.
He will glorify me, because he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.
Everything that the Father has is MINE; for this reason I told you that he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.

John 20:21-23
Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins YOU FORGIVE are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU RETAIN are retained.”

Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."


You see, my Scripturally-bankrupt friend - Jesus gave His Church SUPREME Authority - that WHATEVER is ordained on earth would also be ordained in Heaven.

 

[tom55]

Anarchy defined: a state of disorder due to absence or non-recognition of authority


Lol, like what we got now is a good definition of "order" or something, snarf.

There is order in The Church. The Catholic Church. There is dis-order since the Reformation.

108 AD, St. Ignatius of Antioch:
[SIZE=14pt]Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]The Church of God which sojourns in Smyrna, to the Church of God which sojourns in Philomelium, and to all the dioceses of the holy and Catholic Church in every place”. Later in the same book it says, “When Polycarp had finished his prayer, in which he remembered everyone with whom he had ever been acquainted . . . and the whole Catholic Church throughout the world.” The epistle then concludes, “[/SIZE]Now with the Apostles and all the just [Polycarp] is glorifying God and the [SIZE=12pt]Father Almighty, and he is blessing our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior of our souls, and the Shepherd of the Catholic Church throughout the world”.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Around the year 170 AD in the Muratorian Fragment it is written “….[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Moreover, the epistle of Jude and two of the above-mentioned John are counted (or, used) in the catholic Church;[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]…”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]In the year 180 AD Irenaeus wrote[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]: But inasmuch as it would be very tedious in a book like this to rehearse the lines of succession in every church, we will put to confusion all those who, either from waywardness or conceit or blindness or obstinacy combine together against the truth, by pointing to the tradition, derived from the Apostles, of that great and illustrious Church founded and organized at Rome by the two glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul, and to the faith declared to mankind and handed down to our own time through its bishops in their succession.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]{[/SIZE]Irenaeus was a bishop. He was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John, who was a disciple of Jesus Christ[SIZE=10pt].}[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt] [/SIZE]

 

[tom55]

well, my meaning was that that can be safely assumed, sorry.

SAFELY assumed God knows the truth? Still no assumption on my part and I suspect MOST Christians part also. I KNOW he knows the truth. You sound kind of wishy washy on this




well, i know that Christ sent out the Twelve, two by two, and i know of no Christian that has done this, despite all of our confessions about following Christ.. I know i have never heard a sermon on it, either. So, i know of no Christian following the truth, and i do not know what the truth is, in objective terms, because it does not exist, it is a chimera made up of our desire for (dead) facts and our desire to be gods, which was put in us, and leads us to imagine Mansions in the Sky where we will live eternally, in some kind of party-land, and has nothing whatsoever to do with the kingdom coming to earth that i can see.


You know of no Christian following The Truth? You do not know what the truth is? It's objective? Are you being serious
So God gave us scripture and then said: Figure it out. The truth is in there. All of you will have some of the truth but NO ONE will know the full truth!! And if your wrong about the truth you go to hell. Did God abandonee us??

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
well of course, that is the definition of Anarchy that you are going to find in your corrupted dictionary, now. Chaos, iow. It is pounded into us from a young age, at about the time we start pledging allegiance, right? And tares are just "weeds" too now; go look it up, and see. Anarchy means no rulers, but of course that is not a very healthy definition as far as the fascists who we vote for now are concerned, regardless of the Anarchist Manifesto in 1Sam8. So, go find a better def of Anarchist, imo.

Find in my corrupted dictionary? What does that mean? Remember when I said earlier about having a "common language"? What dictionary do you use that isn't corrupted? What you are saying is very confusing.

I have, as they say, come to my wits end with you. (At the limit of one's mental resources; utterly at a loss.)

 

[bbyrd009]

108 AD, St. Ignatius of Antioch:
[SIZE=14pt]Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]The Church of God which sojourns in Smyrna, to the Church of God which sojourns in Philomelium, and to all the dioceses of the holy and Catholic Church in every place”. Later in the same book it says, “When Polycarp had finished his prayer, in which he remembered everyone with whom he had ever been acquainted . . . and the whole Catholic Church throughout the world.” The epistle then concludes, “Now with the Apostles and all the just [Polycarp] is glorifying God and the Father Almighty, and he is blessing our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior of our souls, and the Shepherd of the Catholic Church throughout the world”.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Around the year 170 AD in the Muratorian Fragment it is written “….Moreover, the epistle of Jude and two of the above-mentioned John are counted (or, used) in the catholic Church;[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]…”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]In the year 180 AD Irenaeus wrote: But inasmuch as it would be very tedious in a book like this to rehearse the lines of succession in every church, we will put to confusion all those who, either from waywardness or conceit or blindness or obstinacy combine together against the truth, by pointing to the tradition, derived from the Apostles, of that great and illustrious Church founded and organized at Rome by the two glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul, and to the faith declared to mankind and handed down to our own time through its bishops in their succession.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]{Irenaeus was a bishop. He was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John, who was a disciple of Jesus Christ.}[/SIZE]

look, i like Catholics, and as long as you quote Paul's wolves instead of Scripture to make your points, i am fine with that, too.

There is order in The Church. The Catholic Church.

only you cannot prove this from Scripture, and you are deceived if you think you can. Catholics are mostly great people, i don't know why one would try to conflate Catholicism with the Bible, the two are mutually exclusive, as your lack of exegesis of "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" will make plain, when it does not agree with the rest of the Message. Stick with Polycrap et al, and count the cost before you crack a Bible imo, which i know you don't consider authoritative anyway, and cannot respond to, so who are we kidding here, right?

 

[bbyrd009]

SAFELY assumed God knows the truth? Still no assumption on my part and I suspect MOST Christians part also. I KNOW he knows the truth. You sound kind of wishy washy on this

i am not interested in a semantics discussion, sorry.

well, i know that Christ sent out the Twelve, two by two, and i know of no Christian that has done this, despite all of our confessions about following Christ.. I know i have never heard a sermon on it, either. So, i know of no Christian following the truth, and i do not know what the truth is, in objective terms, because it does not exist, it is a chimera made up of our desire for (dead) facts and our desire to be gods, which was put in us, and leads us to imagine Mansions in the Sky where we will live eternally, in some kind of party-land, and has nothing whatsoever to do with the kingdom coming to earth that i can see.


You know of no Christian following The Truth? You do not know what the truth is? It's objective? Are you being serious
So God gave us scripture and then said: Figure it out. The truth is in there. All of you will have some of the truth but NO ONE will know the full truth!! And if your wrong about the truth you go to hell. Did God abandonee us??
Find in my corrupted dictionary? What does that mean? Remember when I said earlier about having a "common language"? What dictionary do you use that isn't corrupted? What you are saying is very confusing.

I have, as they say, come to my wits end with you. (At the limit of one's mental resources; utterly at a loss.)

well let's be honest, you checked your common sense at the door of some Monastery a long time ago, when you forgot your first love and accepted the death-cult worship of a Snake on a Pole, described in Kings, and since i know that is surely confusing to you as well, his name is "Nehushtan," should you ever stumble across it.

Now i am assured that "he who says he knows does not yet know as he ought," but if you would like to forward another pov, from some other book, then you are welcome to do so.

Yes, God has abandoned you, to your choices, and you can choose life, or death, the Church of Living Stones, or some preferred death-cult that claims to be following Christ, but cannot address Scripture, the RCC just being the chief rep of those.

The Vatican is one of the 3 legs of the earthly, satanic trinity, the "Ecumenical" one, the other two being "Political" and "Financial," Washington DC and London, respectively, and you can even see their triune flag if you go to Google Images and type in "Vatican, Washington DC, London," which i do not expect you to do, of course, because the truth hurts, but maybe someday after you have deprogrammed yourself that might come in handy.

That White and Red flag, with three stars? Ya. See, they are not even trying to hide it, and yet you have never seen it before, right? Because you are confused, and no doubt "tares" are "weeds" in your lexicon, and no amount of exegesis would lead you to "false wheat, mind altering, psychoactive" because that would just be "confusing," too.

So, no offense meant, but when you get the tares out of your system, then are able to exegete "absent from the body is present with the Lord" in such a way so as to recognize that Paul was not in fact suicidal, as your handlers have convinced you is true, then you might find the rest of your mental capacities restored, and simple points made from Scripture that of course will confuse you right now will start to clarify.

And i apologize if i have just kind of limited patience for people who are confused by Scripture any more, who nonetheless demand to assert what they know about salvation, that they obviously got from some wolf, just like in Scripture, and obviously are following the exact path described therein, "laying the foundation over and over," like a programming glitch, stuck in talking about either sin or death, and somehow connecting it with salvation, because that is God telling you something, too, if you will but hear it.



You know of no Christian following The Truth? You do not know what the truth is? It's objective? Are you being serious
So God gave us scripture and then said: Figure it out. The truth is in there. All of you will have some of the truth but NO ONE will know the full truth!! And if your wrong about the truth you go to hell. Did God abandonee us??
Find in my corrupted dictionary? What does that mean? Remember when I said earlier about having a "common language"? What dictionary do you use that isn't corrupted? What you are saying is very confusing.

I have, as they say, come to my wits end with you. (At the limit of one's mental resources; utterly at a loss.)

 

[bbyrd009]

[SIZE=small]"Since I entered politics, I have chiefly had men's views confided to me privately. Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of something.[/SIZE]

They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it."
Woodrow Wilson

Our way of life is under attack. Those who make themselves our enemy are advancing around the globe... no war ever posed a greater threat to our security.

If you are awaiting a finding of "clear and present danger," then I can only say that the danger has never been more clear and its presence has never been more imminent...

For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy that relies primarily on covert means for expanding its sphere of influence - on infiltration instead of invasion, on subversion instead of elections, on intimidation instead of free choice, on guerrillas by night instead of armies by day.

It is a system which has conscripted vast human and material resources into the building of a tightly knit, highly efficient machine that combines military, diplomatic, intelligence, economic, scientific and political operations.

Its preparations are concealed, not published. Its mistakes are buried, not headlined. Its dissenters are silenced, not praised.

No expenditure is questioned, no rumor is printed, no secret is revealed." JFK

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/sociopol_globalelite177.htm

now i can do this all day long, until you get so confused your head explodes, ok, or you can go and figure out the veil for yourself, ps "the veil" is another Scriptural term that is prolly confusing to you, so i include this ref so you can go look it up in a Bible search engine, but i don't know about a Catholic Bible, ok, find a real one if you can, online or whatever. Or stick with Polycrap, i don't care

 

[bbyrd009]

View attachment 427

so just join the crowd of billions who believe that they know stuff, and must be agreed with in their minds in order to justify your salvation. Because that is the definition of "death-cult" ok. See, you are not agreeing with me, therefore you cannot be saved. See how easy, and self-serving, that utter garbage is?

 

[BreadOfLife]

only you cannot prove this from Scripture, and you are deceived if you think you can. Catholics are mostly great people, i don't know why one would try to conflate Catholicism with the Bible, the two are mutually exclusive, as your lack of exegesis of "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" will make plain, when it does not agree with the rest of the Message. Stick with Polycrap et al, and count the cost before you crack a Bible imo, which i know you don't consider authoritative anyway, and cannot respond to, so who are we kidding here, right?

The claim you make about Catholicism and the Bible - can you give me an example of this?
Can you show me HOW the Church and the Bible are at odds with each other - or do you just like making woefully-ignorant remarks?

Oh, by the way - "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" is found NOWHERE found in Scripture.

Finally - your moronic charge that the Bible is NOT authoritative for Catholics is beyond ignorant . . .

 

[bbyrd009]

Yes, this group believes they are the true church. This is one sign of an unhealthy group. They will think they are something special or have something special from God that few or no one else has. They have the 'truth' and they are 'it'.
http://religionnews.com/2017/01/05/we-were-deceiving-them-former-preachers-unite-at-a-conference-after-embracing-new-religion/

this is about a CoC movement, but there are some interesting parallels imo.

 

[bbyrd009]

The claim you make about Catholicism and the Bible - can you give me an example of this?
Can you show me HOW the Church and the Bible are at odds with each other - or do you just like making woefully-ignorant remarks?

ha well mostly i am just razzing you, as that is the best way i know to heal; go somewhere and get your buttons pushed until they stop working. Yes, i could show how the RCC and the Bible are at odds with each other, but one could do that for any group, from some perspective or other, but i already like Catholics like they are. And look, if you consider Catholic to be Christian, that is fine with me, too, i didn't mean to imply that Catholics were somehow excluded or anything. I'm not a Christian, according to most peoples' definition now anyway, and i am hardly a Defender of the Faith--which phrase actually just conflates "faith" with "beliefs," see, like we do for every other term that we want to make self-serving, iow that we use to "commend ourselves again."

Scripture suggests to me--very strongly--that picking the right belief system is not the way to follow Christ. There is no "correct religion," imo, or incorrect religion, that God respects more than some other. I could provide many Passages for this, but they would be pointless to someone who is convinced otherwise, right? Once one has made their minds up, and decided they know something, then pride sets in, and everything they know now works against them, and i have Scrip for this, too.

 

[bbyrd009]

Oh, by the way - "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" is found NOWHERE found in Scripture.

8b...be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

 

[bbyrd009]

Finally - your moronic charge that the Bible is NOT authoritative for Catholics is beyond ignorant . .
.

to you, perhaps. I forget who said it, but i have heard other Catholics say it before, and it was said recently, in this thread i'm pretty sure, within the last couple of days. mjr health even espouses some form of this. Now, i doubt i am hearing it like they intend it, but i hesitate to label where someone else is at on that, as surely everyone has a different conception there, too.

We could get into how the Bible is corrupted from the original, Passover is now Easter, or how the Catholic Bible is different from the Protestant one, or even that the Bible is not the Word, because the Word is God, and the Bible is not, not even in the original, but people all feel a bit differently there, too, so all i can say is, if the Bible is authoritative to you, then describe your experience of going out like the 12 were sent, and we will see how authoritative the Bible really is for you ok. And please take this in the spirit intended, because i have about 50 or 100 other reflections that mostly just make people uncomfortable, after that one. If you are commending yourselves to each other again, then how is the Bible authoritative to you? And don't get me wrong ok, i am just a hypocrite myself. I am a whore and a murderer, and certainly no better than the worst person you might name.

 

[BreadOfLife]

ha well mostly i am just razzing you, as that is the best way i know to heal; go somewhere and get your buttons pushed until they stop working. Yes, i could show how the RCC and the Bible are at odds with each other, but one could do that for any group, from some perspective or other, but i already like Catholics like they are. And look, if you consider Catholic to be Christian, that is fine with me, too, i didn't mean to imply that Catholics were somehow excluded or anything. I'm not a Christian, according to most peoples' definition now anyway, and i am hardly a Defender of the Faith--which phrase actually just conflates "faith" with "beliefs," see, like we do for every other term that we want to make self-serving, iow that we use to "commend ourselves again."

Scripture suggests to me--very strongly--that picking the right belief system is not the way to follow Christ. There is no "correct religion," imo, or incorrect religion, that God respects more than some other. I could provide many Passages for this, but they would be pointless to someone who is convinced otherwise, right? Once one has made their minds up, and decided they know something, then pride sets in, and everything they know now works against them, and i have Scrip for this, too.

Ahhh, so you're just an antagonist with no real knowledge or evidence for the comments you make.
I'll have to remember that the next time you make a preposterous statement . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

8b...be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

In 2 Cor. 5:8, Paul explicitly states:
"We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord."

Misquoting and misrepresenting Scripture is what led to the confusion of almost 50,000 disjointed, perpetually-splintering Protestant sects that exist today . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

to you, perhaps. I forget who said it, but i have heard other Catholics say it before, and it was said recently, in this thread i'm pretty sure, within the last couple of days. mjr health even espouses some form of this. Now, i doubt i am hearing it like they intend it, but i hesitate to label where someone else is at on that, as surely everyone has a different conception there, too.

We could get into how the Bible is corrupted from the original, Passover is now Easter, or how the Catholic Bible is different from the Protestant one, or even that the Bible is not the Word, because the Word is God, and the Bible is not, not even in the original, but people all feel a bit differently there, too, so all i can say is, if the Bible is authoritative to you, then describe your experience of going out like the 12 were sent, and we will see how authoritative the Bible really is for you ok. And please take this in the spirit intended, because i have about 50 or 100 other reflections that mostly just make people uncomfortable, after that one. If you are commending yourselves to each other again, then how is the Bible authoritative to you? And don't get me wrong ok, i am just a hypocrite myself. I am a whore and a murderer, and certainly no better than the worst person you might name.

Not really sure why you spend so much time on a Christian discussion board - other than the fact that you enjoy being proven wrong.
Your opinions about the Bible NOT being the Word of God stem from your complete failure to understand John 1:1.

 

[bbyrd009]

ok, ty, i'll reflect upon these, have a nice Sabbath.