When did the universal Church first mentioned in 110AD stop being universal?

[bbyrd009]

Who gave YOU the authority to tell everyone else who is right and who is wrong in their translation of the bible??

i think i have been clear that i am offering an opinion here, and seek no adherents to myself, or acolytes, and that I&I better be listened to, if they agree with the Spirit in some regard, and may safely be ignored when they do not. But regardless, they are not in my Bible, so i find the argument moot, as wadr i also find that replying to Scripture with I&I is necessary to proceed along an agenda, and for no other reason than that a Scriptural argument cannot be made.

 

[bbyrd009]

You could show how the RCC and the bible are at odds with each other AND you could do that for any group?? Seriously?

easily, but that does not mean they are truth, necessarily, or would be the only truth. But religion is "man's attempts to reach God, on man's terms," the "wide path" iow, by which i do not mean "bad," but rather a good place to start, to get baby food, and when one seeks further, and sees that all of their peers re-lay the foundation, over and over again, never progressing beyond sin and death, then it is time to either give up on God, or progress to the meat of the Word, and one finds what they seek.

I would even say that it is one's personal duty--"Seek your own salvation"--to do this, if they are serious, and not fence-sitters, which let's admit neither of us is emulating Paul right now, on the run for their lives, wanted men. Right? Although there is a spiritual way to grasp this. But imo it is not safe in the arms of some earthly, fleshly interp of "Church."

Don't find love until you are ready.

So please don't insist on taking this as some kind of condemnation of anyone's system, i don't mean this. What i do mean, essentially, is that children believe very literally, and get fooled by "wait here for the present," and mature people do not. This is not a condemnation of the child; but a statement of their current state of being. It is what it is, iow.

 

[tom55]

i think i have been clear that i am offering an opinion here, and seek no adherents to myself, or acolytes, and that I&I better be listened to, if they agree with the Spirit in some regard, and may safely be ignored when they do not. But regardless, they are not in my Bible, so i find the argument moot, as wadr i also find that replying to Scripture with I&I is necessary to proceed along an agenda, and for no other reason than that a Scriptural argument cannot be made.

No....You haven't been clear. You said, "i could show how the RCC and the Bible are at odds with each other,". That is not an opinion. That is a STATEMENT.

Now back up your statement. How is the RCC and the Bible at odds with each other?

Who gives you the authority to do this? (you never answered that question)

Who decides if they agree with the Spirit?

Who has the authority to say that we can safely ignore them?

 

[tom55]

easily, but that does not mean they are truth, necessarily, or would be the only truth. But religion is "man's attempts to reach God, on man's terms," the "wide path" iow, by which i do not mean "bad," but rather a good place to start, to get baby food, and when one seeks further, and sees that all of their peers re-lay the foundation, over and over again, never progressing beyond sin and death, then it is time to either give up on God, or progress to the meat of the Word, and one finds what they seek.

I would even say that it is one's personal duty--"Seek your own salvation"--to do this, if they are serious, and not fence-sitters, which let's admit neither of us is emulating Paul right now, on the run for their lives, wanted men. Right? Although there is a spiritual way to grasp this. But imo it is not safe in the arms of some earthly, fleshly interp of "Church."

Don't find love until you are ready.

So please don't insist on taking this as some kind of condemnation of anyone's system, i don't mean this. What i do mean, essentially, is that children believe very literally, and get fooled by "wait here for the present," and mature people do not. This is not a condemnation of the child; but a statement of their current state of being. It is what it is, iow.

If it is so easy....then do it!!

"So please don't insist on taking this as some kind of condemnation of anyone's system" Are you serious? I could EASLY provide at least ten quotes from you over the last several days that condemns the RCC Church.

Why is everyone else being fooled and you are not?? Your statements make no sense.

 

[tom55]

if they are cloistered, and ships in a safe harbor, then definitely; but my point is that anyone led by the Spirit is guided to listen to the Spirit, which will not conflict with Scripture at any point, and thus many Passages of Scripture will not have to be ignored or reasoned away, as most Christians and Catholics are coerced into doing.

You say that your "point is that anyone led by the Spirit is guided to listen to the Spirit, which will not conflict with Scripture at any point".

How do explain all the different Christian denominations beliefs/practices/doctrines/teachings that CONFLICTE with each other if all of them are led by the Spirit???? How do you know which one is REALLY being led by the Spirit??

What you are saying makes no sense.

 

[tom55]

ah, i meant to say that no, i do not respect their pov at all, over Scripture, my bad. Aren't they held up as "saints" by the RCC? "Commended by other men," iow, when we are all saints?

1Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, like some, letters of recommendation to you or from you?

So your pov on scripture is superior to theirs even though they walked and talked with the Apostle John and one of his students? :blink:

You must truly be a holy man?? More saintly then they? Or a prophet??

Are we all saints? It depends on YOUR definition of saint!!

 

[bbyrd009]

No....You haven't been clear. You said, "i could show how the RCC and the Bible are at odds with each other,". That is not an opinion. That is a STATEMENT.

Now back up your statement. How is the RCC and the Bible at odds with each other?

Who gives you the authority to do this? (you never answered that question)

Who decides if they agree with the Spirit?

Who has the authority to say that we can safely ignore them?

Seek your own salvation, with fear and trembling gives me the authority, and please see that i am not meaning to trash the RCC, or suggest you become a Protestant, ok, or anything like that. Any Est'd system of men is going to be at odds with the Bible, and many more learned men than me have demonstrated this better than i could. If your vision is being removed to some future, pointed at kingdom, where/when one might there/then be with Jesus, while "today" is minimized or abolished, then see what you will see.

Who decides if they agree with the Spirit?

the only one who can decide; you. The only one who decides, anyway; you. As evidenced by the fact that you do not believe everything the next Catholic believes, despite any words to the contrary.

Who has the authority to say that we can safely ignore them?

Who gave you the authority to disagree with some jot or tittle that the next Catholic accepts as doctrine of truth? See, you are doing this anyway, already; Catholics plot along a bell-curve, just like everyone else.

 

[bbyrd009]

"So please don't insist on taking this as some kind of condemnation of anyone's system" Are you serious? I could EASLY provide at least ten quotes from you over the last several days that condemns the RCC Church.

all religion is condemned, when it is recognized that men will naturally seek to establish a worldly religious system that allows them to be both successful in human terms, and believe on the Lord.
Religion calls people to seek God from fear of hell, ok? Which is a better way than not fearing God at all. The fear of God is the beginning of Wisdom, yes?
Money is imo a big clue. The kingdom requires no money. When money is mentioned, that is a clue. Take it or leave it. I did not mean to be trying to pull tares, or calling the RCC tares or anything, ok. Everything works together for good. The RCC serves a vital function, or it would have taken its place beside Mithraism or whatever a long time ago. Yes, strong men seek to wrest the kingdom, too. Seek and you will find, right? If you are happy with your belief system, that allows you to be successful in the eyes of the world, and not have to think too much about following Paul into hell, joyfully, and allows you to be sure and know things, and tell other people they are wrong and don't know anything, then i am not inclined to persuade one from changing their minds there. You reap what you sow. I am hard-pressed even now, today, to find an American who would not state that they are a "Christian." How much wider can the path be? One can only fool themselves, in the end.

 

[tom55]

Seek your own salvation, with fear and trembling gives me the authority, and please see that i am not meaning to trash the RCC, or suggest you become a Protestant, ok, or anything like that. Any Est'd system of men is going to be at odds with the Bible, and many more learned men than me have demonstrated this better than i could. If your vision is being removed to some future, pointed at kingdom, where/when one might there/then be with Jesus, while "today" is minimized or abolished, then see what you will see.


the only one who can decide; you. The only one who decides, anyway; you. As evidenced by the fact that you do not believe everything the next Catholic believes, despite any words to the contrary.

Who gave you the authority to disagree with some jot or tittle that the next Catholic accepts as doctrine of truth? See, you are doing this anyway, already; Catholics plot along a bell-curve, just like everyone else.

Yes.....You are meaning to trash the RCC. One can easily see that when they go back and read your statements over the last several days!!

The Apostles were a system of men. And when you read scripture and Christian history it sets up a system, led by man, with hierarchy and authority.

The only one who can decide is ME?? That makes the Truth of scripture about ME instead of HIM. The Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth; not ME!!

I believe what the Catholic Church teaches. If another person who claims to be Catholic does not believe what the Church teaches then they are not Catholic. You believe what you teach. You are your own authority.

Who gave me authority to disagree?? The Church did? The pillar and foundation of Truth that was built on a ROCK with Peter as it's first leader!! The same Church that has the AUTHORITY to determine who is a pagan or tax collector.

Who gave you authority??

 

[bbyrd009]

Why is everyone else being fooled and you are not?? Your statements make no sense.

? All are deceived, and i suggest to you that if i am not making any sense, then you completely disregard what i am saying, ok? You might reflect upon the fact that you are already doing this on some level with any new info, even from the RCC, and you already know that you believe slightly differently from every other Catholic, even. Beliefs manifest from faith; not the other way around, as is often promulgated. I am not to be followed, or believed in, ok. I am not asking you to believe me. I do not care what you believe, if your beliefs allow that a Sufi who manifests the Spirit might be completely acceptable to God, then i agree with your beliefs; and if your beliefs do not allow for this, i would ask you who the First Son reps, in that case, and then see what you will see. And yes, i am already aware of the "Jew/Gentile" interpretation. Go with that, if you like.

 

[tom55]

all religion is condemned, when it is recognized that men will naturally seek to establish a worldly religious system that allows them to be both successful in human terms, and believe on the Lord.
Religion calls people to seek God from fear of hell, ok? Which is a better way than not fearing God at all. The fear of God is the beginning of Wisdom, yes?
Money is imo a big clue. The kingdom requires no money. When money is mentioned, that is a clue. Take it or leave it. I did not mean to be trying to pull tares, or calling the RCC tares or anything, ok. Everything works together for good. The RCC serves a vital function, or it would have taken its place beside Mithraism or whatever a long time ago. Yes, strong men seek to wrest the kingdom, too. Seek and you will find, right? If you are happy with your belief system, that allows you to be successful in the eyes of the world, and not have to think too much about following Paul into hell, joyfully, and allows you to be sure and know things, and tell other people they are wrong and don't know anything, then i am not inclined to persuade one from changing their minds there. You reap what you sow. I am hard-pressed even now, today, to find an American who would not state that they are a "Christian." How much wider can the path be? One can only fool themselves, in the end.

All religion is condemned? That doesn't make sense.

The Kingdom requires no money? How much did your computer cost that you are typing on to spread YOUR word? How much are you paying for electricity to spread YOUR word? But the Church doesn't need money to pay for THEIR word? Are you a hypocrite? Did you forget about Paul asking that the money be ready for him when he arrives? Was that for the Church or his personal use?? 1 Cor. 16

You would be "hard-pressed even now, today, to find an American who would not state that they are a "Christian". You hang out with the wrong crowd then.

 

[tom55]

? All are deceived, and i suggest to you that if i am not making any sense, then you completely disregard what i am saying, ok? You might reflect upon the fact that you are already doing this on some level with any new info, even from the RCC, and you already know that you believe slightly differently from every other Catholic, even. Beliefs manifest from faith; not the other way around, as is often promulgated. I am not to be followed, or believed in, ok. I am not asking you to believe me. I do not care what you believe, if your beliefs allow that a Sufi who manifests the Spirit might be completely acceptable to God, then i agree with your beliefs; and if your beliefs do not allow for this, i would ask you who the First Son reps, in that case, and then see what you will see. And yes, i am already aware of the "Jew/Gentile" interpretation. Go with that, if you like.

ALL are deceived? That means NO ONE knows the truth and no one can get to heaven....doesn't it?? (well, except you of course)

I have disregarded EVERYTHING you say and I don't believe you.

 

[bbyrd009]

You say that your "point is that anyone led by the Spirit is guided to listen to the Spirit, which will not conflict with Scripture at any point".

How do explain all the different Christian denominations beliefs/practices/doctrines/teachings that CONFLICTE with each other if all of them are led by the Spirit???? How do you know which one is REALLY being led by the Spirit??

What you are saying makes no sense.

ha. simple. if their belief system conflicts with anyone else seeking God, so that they are considered "out" (not "in") or "them" (not "us") or "lost," then they are not being led by the Spirit.
"Now there is no condemnation in those who are in Christ."
but that doesn't mean that there are not pure-hearted people observing that belief system, as we can observe.

What makes no sense is condemning people for their belief system, when Love believes all things.

 

[bbyrd009]

So your pov on scripture is superior to theirs even though they walked and talked with the Apostle John and one of his students? :blink:

You must truly be a holy man?? More saintly then they? Or a prophet??

Are we all saints? It depends on YOUR definition of saint!!

Tom, i have already said that if they agree with Word, then you better be listening to them when they talk ok. But i would consider where they are coming from, and we are basically talking about Flagellants here, ok. Meaning they might have some great, insightful truths to impart; or they also might be feathering their own nests. I&I are not two guys who have sold out to Christ, and are on the run from the law, iow. Although they may have ended up that way; wouldn't surprise me if they did. I guess Ignatius was. But he is not Scripture, and there is no reason to supplant Paul or some other Scripture in favor of either I or I, was the point. Even "martyr" might be abused, right. Hitler was a martyr, too.

Hey, was Ratzinger a Saint? Lol, that is not for me to say. It is Bible-bait to accept the condemnation of general principles found in Scripture, even when presented as people being condemned, and taking from that that we are thus then qualified to be judging other people, with an eye to either commending them or condemning them. Imo.

 

[bbyrd009]

Yes.....You are meaning to trash the RCC. One can easily see that when they go back and read your statements over the last several days!!

granted, because several here believe in some primacy of the religion. An obviously more holistic view recognizes that the RCC is the whore, and also the RCC serves a vital function, and many, many Catholics are very good-hearted, charitable people, as i have also said.

The Apostles were a system of men. And when you read scripture and Christian history it sets up a system, led by man, with hierarchy and authority.

to you, perhaps. To me, it is a false premise, made up of the desire of men to establish a fleshly kingdom, and accept the crown that Christ refused, made up of strongmen and subterfuge. If those men and that system lead you to Spirit, then awesome. If they lead you to condemnation of others, then you are condemned.

The only one who can decide is ME?? That makes the Truth of scripture about ME instead of HIM. The Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth; not ME!!

you are the Church, Tom, and there is no other Church but you. You are the one called to seek salvation; you are the one building a temple that will be tested by fire. The pope is not going to be standing there beside you in that day, ok. He is a guy, just like you.

 

[bbyrd009]

I believe what the Catholic Church teaches. If another person who claims to be Catholic does not believe what the Church teaches then they are not Catholic. You believe what you teach. You are your own authority.

Who gave me authority to disagree?? The Church did? The pillar and foundation of Truth that was built on a ROCK with Peter as it's first leader!! The same Church that has the AUTHORITY to determine who is a pagan or tax collector.

Who gave you authority??

We are looping now; i have already answered this. Seek your own salvation gives me the authority, and the responsibility. I could dig up some supporting Witness for that, i am sure. Catholics all believe slightly differently, whether you want to admit that or not, Tom.


I believe what the Catholic Church teaches. If another person who claims to be Catholic does not believe what the Church teaches then they are not Catholic. You believe what you teach. You are your own authority.

Who gave me authority to disagree?? The Church did? The pillar and foundation of Truth that was built on a ROCK with Peter as it's first leader!! The same Church that has the AUTHORITY to determine who is a pagan or tax collector.

Who gave you authority??

 

[bbyrd009]

All religion is condemned? That doesn't make sense.

to you, perhaps. So either adjust your definition of "religion," or give me a new term for people who want to go to some imaginary heaven that is not supported in Scripture, while still having their best life now here on earth. Fence sitter, apostate, ate and drank at His table, put His Name in the streets, will hear "I never knew you," define it however seems right to you, ok? Be sure in your own mind.

 

[bbyrd009]

The Kingdom requires no money? ~~~~~~~~~~~correct
How much did your computer cost that you are typing on to spread YOUR word? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~nothing, for me
How much are you paying for electricity to spread YOUR word? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~nothing, for me
But the Church doesn't need money to pay for THEIR word? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~the Church is a Spiritual Body, the Body of Christ, and does not need a dime of your fake bloody money, that people are still using now only because you have the strongest army; correct.
Are you a hypocrite? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~yes
Did you forget about Paul asking that the money be ready for him when he arrives? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~to feed the Jerusalemites who sold all of their property and lived like communists for a couple years until the money ran out, because they were convinced Christ was coming right back, bodily, any minute? Nope, haven't forgot them.
Was that for the Church or his personal use?? 1 Cor. 16~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~that was for a Passage in Scripture, and trust me God did not need them to have money for them to eat, that was all in their minds. It is a lesson. It is also bait, for those who wish to see and not see to lick up. Paul went to Jerusalem to take the Nazarite Vow, too, so what, iow.

You would be "hard-pressed even now, today, to find an American who would not state that they are a "Christian". You hang out with the wrong crowd then.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~well of course that is finally starting to melt, and it is becoming somewhat fashionable to say that one is not a Christian now...thank you, God, is all i can say. Look at what the term has become.

The Kingdom requires no money? How much did your computer cost that you are typing on to spread YOUR word? How much are you paying for electricity to spread YOUR word? But the Church doesn't need money to pay for THEIR word? Are you a hypocrite? Did you forget about Paul asking that the money be ready for him when he arrives? Was that for the Church or his personal use?? 1 Cor. 16

You would be "hard-pressed even now, today, to find an American who would not state that they are a "Christian". You hang out with the wrong crowd then.

 

[bbyrd009]

ALL are deceived? That means NO ONE knows the truth and no one can get to heaven....doesn't it?? (well, except you of course)

get to heaven? the kingdom is very near to you. All go to the same place. Anyone who points to some kingdom is a liar, and maybe you are just believing them. The kingdom does not come by observation. Little children, do not be deceived. etcetc. You are not, ever, "going" to this kingdom that has been imagined for you, and you are deceiving others when you assure them of some future kingdom that you do not know anything about, wadr.

I have disregarded EVERYTHING you say and I don't believe you.

what is that to me? When you have a Witness that can refute me, let me know. I know this is a big pill to swallow, ok? And it is obvious that you are a good-hearted person. Everything else, frankly, is irrelevant to me.

I have disregarded EVERYTHING you say and I don't believe you.

 

[epostle1]

get to heaven? the kingdom is very near to you. All go to the same place. Anyone who points to some kingdom is a liar, and maybe you are just believing them. The kingdom does not come by observation. Little children, do not be deceived. etcetc. You are not, ever, "going" to this kingdom that has been imagined for you, and you are deceiving others when you assure them of some future kingdom that you do not know anything about, wadr.


what is that to me? When you have a Witness that can refute me, let me know. I know this is a big pill to swallow, ok? And it is obvious that you are a good-hearted person. Everything else, frankly, is irrelevant to me.

In Post 555, you said: you are the Church, Tom, and there is no other Church but you. You are the one called to seek salvation; you are the one building a temple that will be tested by fire. The pope is not going to be standing there beside you in that day, ok. He is a guy, just like you.
This is an absurd non sequitur and I don't think you understand what "tested by fire" means, nor do you understand the role of the Pope in the life of the Church. You had to throw that in there to add color to a disparaged incohesive remark.

In post #556 you said: "Seek your own salvation gives me the authority, and the responsibility." is unbiblical, and reveals a private definition of authority that has nothing to do with what Tom said.

In post 557, you blended in "I never knew you," a totally irrelevant scripture snippet that you threw in to give a veneer of legitimacy. See Matt. 7 for clarification.

post 558 has absolutely nothing to do with Tom's quote. What annoys me more is switching to multiple irrelevant topics in a single post, like a scared rabbit.

Watch you don't spiritualize "kingdom of God" to the point of Gnosticism. The Church is Christ on earth.