When did the universal Church first mentioned in 110AD stop being universal?

[tom55]

Tom, i have already said that if they agree with Word, then you better be listening to them when they talk ok. But i would consider where they are coming from, and we are basically talking about Flagellants here, ok. Meaning they might have some great, insightful truths to impart; or they also might be feathering their own nests. I&I are not two guys who have sold out to Christ, and are on the run from the law, iow. Although they may have ended up that way; wouldn't surprise me if they did. I guess Ignatius was. But he is not Scripture, and there is no reason to supplant Paul or some other Scripture in favor of either I or I, was the point. Even "martyr" might be abused, right. Hitler was a martyr, too.

Hey, was Ratzinger a Saint? Lol, that is not for me to say. It is Bible-bait to accept the condemnation of general principles found in Scripture, even when presented as people being condemned, and taking from that that we are thus then qualified to be judging other people, with an eye to either commending them or condemning them. Imo.

Lets be honest here. What you really mean is if they agree with YOU then we should listen to them!!

You never answered my question:
So your pov on scripture is superior to theirs even though they walked and talked with the Apostle John and one of his students?

 

[tom55]

We are looping now; i have already answered this. Seek your own salvation gives me the authority, and the responsibility. I could dig up some supporting Witness for that, i am sure. Catholics all believe slightly differently, whether you want to admit that or not, Tom.

I believe what the Catholic Church teaches. If another person who claims to be Catholic does not believe what the Church teaches then they are not Catholic. You believe what you teach. You are your own authority.

Who gave me authority to disagree?? The Church did? The pillar and foundation of Truth that was built on a ROCK with Peter as it's first leader!! The same Church that has the AUTHORITY to determine who is a pagan or tax collector.

Who gave you authority??

Seek your own salvation

Where is that in the bible? Philippians?

 

[bbyrd009]

In Post 555, you said: you are the Church, Tom, and there is no other Church but you. You are the one called to seek salvation; you are the one building a temple that will be tested by fire. The pope is not going to be standing there beside you in that day, ok. He is a guy, just like you.
This is an absurd non sequitur and I don't think you understand what "tested by fire" means, nor do you understand the role of the Pope in the life of the Church. You had to throw that in there to add color to a disparaged incohesive remark.

In post #556 you said: "Seek your own salvation gives me the authority, and the responsibility." is unbiblical, and reveals a private definition of authority that has nothing to do with what Tom said.

In post 557, you blended in "I never knew you," a totally irrelevant scripture snippet that you threw in to give a veneer of legitimacy. See Matt. 7 for clarification.

post 558 has absolutely nothing to do with Tom's quote. What annoys me more is switching to multiple irrelevant topics in a single post, like a scared rabbit.

Watch you don't spiritualize "kingdom of God" to the point of Gnosticism. The Church is Christ on earth.

well, i agree that the Church is the Body of Christ, but i mean the Living Stones, and not the Corporation. "Sheep to the slaughter" would be my description of that.

As to the meme, it sounds good, until the price to the third world country is considered. But i don't disagree that some good is also done, either.

 

[bbyrd009]

Seek your own salvation

Where is that in the bible? Philippians?

yes. Let us seek its plan and direction from Him.

 

[tom55]

yes. Let us seek its plan and direction from Him.

If I Seek my own salvation THAT gives me authority?? :blink:

Hmmmmm.......I don't know what to say!!

 

[bbyrd009]

In Post 555, you said: you are the Church, Tom, and there is no other Church but you. You are the one called to seek salvation; you are the one building a temple that will be tested by fire. The pope is not going to be standing there beside you in that day, ok. He is a guy, just like you.
This is an absurd non sequitur and I don't think you understand what "tested by fire" means, nor do you understand the role of the Pope in the life of the Church. You had to throw that in there to add color to a disparaged incohesive remark.

hmm, my guess is the pope would agree, but i understand you. The baptism of fire is at least not been ritualized, like the other two. I do not recognize the role of the pope in the Church, which is imo chiefly what divides Catholics from other Christians, but in practice it seems only nominally, as most Protestants put their pastors on pedestals anyway.

So, maybe you guys are seeing that i don't get along so well doctrinally with most "Protestants" either, ok; just more sheep to the slaughter imo. Ritualizing faith into belief, and packaging Christ for mass consumption.

 

[bbyrd009]

If I Seek my own salvation THAT gives me authority?? :blink:

Hmmmmm.......I don't know what to say!!

ok, i haven't spent any time seeking the verses that Witness one's individual authority as a Priest in the Church. I could do that, there are many, but we are not going to agree on the interp anyway, most likely, and as i say, i don't buy any Protestant death-centered interps either. "churches" lead people into an introspective seeking, to save one's own soul, and to commend each other, in defiance of those Passages that speak to that imo. Catholics are much more charitable, it seems to me, which makes the world a better place, even if the charity model is broken; they seem to be doing it better than most.

So anyway, there are better references for authority, but it is pretty easy to get to Christ as my sole authority, and me as the guy right below Him, recognizing that there are elders that deserve a double blessing, but by them i mean like Mahatma and Jose Mujica, like that. Dario Fo. People the RCC has likely excommunicated, if they ever were Catholics, iow.

 

[epostle1]

well, i agree that the Church is the Body of Christ, but i mean the Living Stones, and not the Corporation. "Sheep to the slaughter" would be my description of that.

As to the meme, it sounds good, until the price to the third world country is considered. But i don't disagree that some good is also done, either.

not the Corporation? "sheep to the slaughter"? I am not sure if you are just IGNORANT or being ARROGANT. It appears you are an authority unto yourself so it's probably BOTH.

There is nothing in the Bible where Christ gives His infallible authority to individuals to bind and loose, declare anathemas, resolve doctrinal disputes, compile the canon of Scripture, or develop the Trinity in response to heretics. "pretty easy to get to Christ as my sole authority" is not in the Bible, it is a man made Protestant tradition, an invention designed to bypass the teaching authority of the Church that Jesus commissioned to teach, what you insult with "Corporation".

You must be a Jehovah's Witness or in some similar post-enlightenment cult judging by the idiocy you posts. Or your own pope in a church of one.

 

[bbyrd009]

not the Corporation? "sheep to the slaughter"? I am not sure if you are just IGNORANT or being ARROGANT. It appears you are an authority unto yourself so it's probably BOTH.

There is nothing in the Bible where Christ gives His infallible authority to individuals to bind and loose, declare anathemas, resolve doctrinal disputes, compile the canon of Scripture, or develop the Trinity in response to heretics. "pretty easy to get to Christ as my sole authority" is not in the Bible, it is a man made Protestant tradition, an invention designed to bypass the teaching authority of the Church that Jesus commissioned to teach, what you insult with "Corporation".

You must be a Jehovah's Witness or in some similar post-enlightenment cult judging by the idiocy you posts. Or your own pope in a church of one.

well surely on some level you recognize that your beliefs are just the backdrop for your faith, and the war is within you, same as it is me, same as it has always been. The Bible is chock full of references to this, and i know many Catholics who get this concept just fine, prolly better than i do, judging by their level of humility.

1Summoning the Twelve, He gave them power and authority over all the demons, and power to heal diseases.

1After this, the Lord appointed 70a others, and He sent them ahead of Him in pairs to every town and place where He Himself was about to go.
2He told them:b “The harvestc is abundant, but the workersd are few. Therefore, pray to the Lord of the harvest to send out workers into His harvest.e
3Now go; I’m sending you out like lambs among wolves.f
4Don’t carry a money-bag,g traveling bag,h or sandals;i don’t greet anyone along the road.
5Whatever house you enter, first say, ‘Peacej to this household.

15These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.

So it is hard to escape your authority, actually, i mean you have to put yourself in these somewhere, right. And i could bring up some Witnesses that it is your works that will be tested by fire, and while i may have put it unkindly? the church you went to or believed with, or the pope, or your human priest, should you recognize one, is not going to be there to answer for you in that day. Doesn't mean that they don't deserve a double-blessing, if they have helped guide you into all truth.

But i think it has to mean that you have come to some understanding of "Love believes all things," which is a challenge to anyone's faith. If you are led to discredit me, then by inference you believe i am breaking some law that you currently believe is mandatory for my salvation; could you tell me what this law is? Because i do not condemn you, not even for bowing to an earthly pope; if it leads you to Grace.

 

[epostle1]

well surely on some level you recognize that your beliefs are just the backdrop for your faith, and the war is within you, same as it is me, same as it has always been. The Bible is chock full of references to this, and i know many Catholics who get this concept just fine, prolly better than i do, judging by their level of humility.

1Summoning the Twelve, He gave them power and authority over all the demons, and power to heal diseases.

1After this, the Lord appointed 70a others, and He sent them ahead of Him in pairs to every town and place where He Himself was about to go.
2He told them:b “The harvestc is abundant, but the workersd are few. Therefore, pray to the Lord of the harvest to send out workers into His harvest.e
3Now go; I’m sending you out like lambs among wolves.f
4Don’t carry a money-bag,g traveling bag,h or sandals;i don’t greet anyone along the road.
5Whatever house you enter, first say, ‘Peacej to this household.

15These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.

So it is hard to escape your authority, actually, i mean you have to put yourself in these somewhere, right. And i could bring up some Witnesses that it is your works that will be tested by fire, and while i may have put it unkindly? the church you went to or believed with, or the pope, or your human priest, should you recognize one, is not going to be there to answer for you in that day. Doesn't mean that they don't deserve a double-blessing, if they have helped guide you into all truth.

But i think it has to mean that you have come to some understanding of "Love believes all things," which is a challenge to anyone's faith. If you are led to discredit me, then by inference you believe i am breaking some law that you currently believe is mandatory for my salvation; could you tell me what this law is? Because i do not condemn you, not even for bowing to an earthly pope; if it leads you to Grace.

You can start by putting an end to condescending digs and false witness with remarks like "corporation" and "bowing to an earthy pope" and "sheep to the slaughter" and a list of other anti-church, anti-Catholic bigoted remarks you have made. Your polemical subtlety is not always subtle and I find it offensive.

It is the pitting of the ultimate source against the secondary, human source (the Church) which is the problem in your approach and that of Protestantism in general. You guys don’t like human, institutional authority and don’t have enough faith to believe that God can and does preserve it, so you try to undermine it by fallacious arguments, as presently.

No doubt you aren’t even aware that you are doing it. To do this is automatic in Protestantism; it’s like breathing. It’s like the fish that doesn’t know it’s in water. It all comes from the rejection of the infallibility of the Church (which is one thing that sola Scriptura always entails).

In Galatians 1-2 Paul is referring to his initial conversion. But even then God made sure there was someone else around, to urge him to get baptized (Ananias: Acts 22:12-16). He received the revelation initially and then sought to have it confirmed by Church authority (Gal 2:1-2); then his authority was accepted or verified by James, Peter, and John (Gal 2:9).

So we see that the Bible doesn’t pit the divine call directly from God, against Church authority, as you do. You do it because it is Protestant man-made tradition to do so; period, and because the Protestant has to always undermine the authority of the Catholic Church, in order to bolster his own anti-system, that was set up against the historic Church in the first place.

We believe in faith that the Church is infallible and indefectible, based on many biblical indications. It is theoretically possible (speaking in terms of philosophy or epistemology) that the Church could stray and have to be rejected, but the Bible rules that out. We believe in faith that it has not and will not.

Protestants don’t have enough faith to believe that God could preserve an infallible Church, even though they can muster up even more faith than that, which is required to believe in an infallible Bible written by a bunch of sinners and hypocrites.

We simply have more faith than you guys do. It’s a supernatural gift. We believe that the authoritative Church is also a key part of God’s plan to save the souls of men. We follow the model of the Jerusalem Council, whereas you guys reject that or ignore it, because it doesn’t fit in with the man-made tradition of Protestantism and a supposedly non-infallible Church.

What is straying from God’s word is the very notion of denominationalism, which is always considered an outrage in the NT;
the rejection of apostolic succession,
and of, e.g., bishops (plainly present in the NT),
or belief in a non-literal Eucharist,
or a baptism that doesn’t regenerate,
or sola Scriptura
or faith alone (separation of justification and sanctification):
all the host of unbiblical teachings that are in Protestantism. That’s why I left the system; wanting to follow biblical teachings more closely, traditional moral teachings, and the historic Christian Church.

The Bible teaches that the true Church is infallible and indefectible. That is a promise of God. One either accepts it in faith or not. That is the task: does one accept all of what the Bible teaches, or just selectively, with man-made traditions added to it?

There is such a thing as a false church and false gospel, that must be rejected, and there is also the one true Church that cannot fail doctrinally, based on God’s protection. You assert the first thing but reject the second, which is your difficulty (accepting one part of the Bible but not another). We accept both things and have no difficulty.

Dialogue w Calvinist: Paul a “Lone Ranger”?

 

[bbyrd009]

You can start by putting an end to condescending digs and false witness with remarks like "corporation" and "bowing to an earthy pope" and "sheep to the slaughter" and a list of other anti-church, anti-Catholic bigoted remarks you have made. Your polemical subtlety is not always subtle and I find it offensive.

then if you would understand the context, that being that any corporate construct of men is going to essentially reflect the hearts of men, and the battle is within each of us, as i have mentioned. If you take offense to "corporation" and "bowing to an earthy pope," i mean really? those are offensive to you? Then wadr maybe you should take a look at that? Because i am not meaning to be offensive there, do you have a better way to put those or something? How does one offend a Christian, anyway? One cannot. And "sheep to the slaughter" should actually be taken as a compliment, to a Christian, i would think. So, if you want to perceive religion or the RCC with rose-colored glasses, and ignore that it is essentially an expression of the war within each of us as i have suggested, then go ahead. I've already plainly admitted to the good the RCC does, and noted the same corporation in Protestantism. Pretty much everyone is kissing somebody's ring, i mean yikes, wanna lead us in a recital of the Pharisees Prayer next or what lol

As to the rest, these are just the differences in Catholic and Christian, which i guess that also offends you, but i certainly don't mean it that way, i celebrate the Catholics in my life, and thank God for them. If that system leads you to a better walk with Christ then i say amen.

 

[mjrhealth]

No doubt you aren’t even aware that you are doing it. To do this is automatic in Protestantism; it’s like breathing. It’s like the fish that doesn’t know it’s in water. It all comes from the rejection of the infallibility of the Church (which is one thing that sola Scriptura always entails).

Taking things out of context, your church is made up of men it is not infallible as you claim, sorry that is only for His chursh.

Joh_4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

God doesnt neeed your church, you do.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Taking things out of context, your church is made up of men it is not infallible as you claim, sorry that is only for His chursh.

Joh_4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

God doesnt neeed your church, you do.

Sooooo, WHICH one of the almost 50,000 denominations of Protestantism IS infallible??
Since you obviously agree that His Church IS infallible - WHICH one is it??

 

[mjrhealth]

Since you obviously agree that His Church IS infallible - WHICH one is it??

You missed it didnt you

Joh_4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

But as it says

1Co_3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

or

1Co_3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

Rom_8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Man has rejected God to foilow his own path, always being the way. Men building there own towers to heaven, carnal men denying teh Spirit of God even Christ Himself

Mat_15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

You look for His church you wont find it in a building it made up of those who follow only Christ. not man.

Mat_7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Still teh same today.

 

[epostle1]

Pretty much everyone is kissing somebody's ring, i mean yikes, wanna lead us in a recital of the Pharisees Prayer next or what lol

First you say. "plainly admitted to the good the RCC does," Then you spit in my face with this??? Just because it is not a white Anglo-Saxon American Protestant custom, the kissing of the ring has to be ridiculed? You are a phony or profoundly ignorant.

FYI, Pope Francis wears it only for liturgical purposes.
FYI, a ring is found in Luke 15:22, signifying dignity.
FYI, the custom goes back to the early days of the Church showing respect for Jesus, author of the office.
FYI, this symbolic gesture of respect toward an authority is no different than when Americans rise when their President enter a room, or when the British rise when the Queen of England enters a room, or when those present rise when a Judge enters the Court Room, or when the Head of any State enters a room.

 

[bbyrd009]

First you say. "plainly admitted to the good the RCC does," Then you spit in my face with this??? Just because it is not a white Anglo-Saxon American Protestant custom, the kissing of the ring has to be ridiculed? You are a phony or profoundly ignorant.

FYI, Pope Francis wears it only for liturgical purposes.
FYI, a ring is found in Luke 15:22, signifying dignity.
FYI, the custom goes back to the early days of the Church showing respect for Jesus, author of the office.
FYI, this symbolic gesture of respect toward an authority is no different than when Americans rise when their President enter a room, or when the British rise when the Queen of England enters a room, or when those present rise when a Judge enters the Court Room, or when the Head of any State enters a room.

Hence, "everyone is kissing someone's ring," humans naturally seek a king to fight their battles, etc. Not ridiculing anything. It is what it is. A natural inclination of men to seek like-minded peers, who have agreed on similar models of things, even of God, who then defend those models to the death, faithfully following 1Sam8. And who could not even imagine or entertain the thought of really not being in the world, and not having a model to defend; not paying any attention to the commendations of others. Obama won a Nobel Peace Prize; and he is the first potus to be at war every day of his office; it is up to you to rise when he enters the room, or not. And Catholics are still considered subversives in some countries, so what are we even arguing about here. So exactly, i agree with you, it is no different.

18When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, but the Lord will not answer you in that day.”

 

[BreadOfLife]

Hence, "everyone is kissing someone's ring," humans naturally seek a king to fight their battles, etc. Not ridiculing anything. It is what it is. A natural inclination of men to seek like-minded peers, who have agreed on similar models of things, even of God, who then defend those models to the death, faithfully following 1Sam8. And who could not even imagine or entertain the thought of really not being in the world, and not having a model to defend; not paying any attention to the commendations of others. Obama won a Nobel Peace Prize; and he is the first potus to be at war every day of his office; it is up to you to rise when he enters the room, or not. And Catholics are still considered subversives in some countries, so what are we even arguing about here. So exactly, i agree with you, it is no different.

18When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, but the Lord will not answer you in that day.”

So, when a man kisses a woman's hand - he is asking her to fight his battles?
He is showing her the respect of total authority as to a king??

OR - is this all a show of love and respect??
Not ALL kissing and bowing is "worship."

 

[epostle1]

The Church is an organized visible fellowship. Because it is divine institution and dynamism, the Holy Spirit dwells in it, keeping it alive, keeping it true, and making it grow. The Spirit is the source of the life of the Church, but that life is the life of a body.

The body is made up of many members who are distinguished one from the other by functions for which they have a fixed structure. In the Body, the bishops have the function of teaching and guiding, and this task they perform through the power of the Spirit who transfuses the whole Body, making each member effective in his function.

The Body is one, and so the episcopate is one, and the unity of the episcopate is achieved through solidarity with the prime source of Episcopal power, the Bishop of Rome. In the Catholic vision the pope teaches in the name of the episcopate and the episcopate teaches in the name of the Church and the Church teaches in the name of Christ, and Christ teaches in the name of God.

 

[bbyrd009]

So, when a man kisses a woman's hand - he is asking her to fight his battles?
He is showing her the respect of total authority as to a king??

OR - is this all a show of love and respect??
Not ALL kissing and bowing is "worship."

nor did i say it was, though. So that is more about what one's heart seeks in the way of authority. A person living in fear seeks a king to fight their battles. And we don't even think about this now; it is how we "organize." We become an organ. We become organs of the State the day we are born now, and i pledged allegiance, for years, to the same trinity that the Vatican represents, that you and i do not even know where the court is to bring a lawsuit against them if we wanted to. The land they occupy is not a part of any country that you know, and their flag is not the flag of any people that you know. You wanna see the flag again? Do you know the significance of those three obelisks, one at each spot? That you are bowing to?

And as i said, that doesn't mean that you cannot be a pure-hearted person, just because people think of "Catholic" when they think of you; but if that is the one word that they might pick to describe you, maybe some reflection is in order. The war is within. Armageddon is fought on the soil of your heart.

 

[bbyrd009]

The Church is an organized visible fellowship. Because it is divine institution and dynamism, the Holy Spirit dwells in it, keeping it alive, keeping it true, and making it grow. The Spirit is the source of the life of the Church, but that life is the life of a body.

The body is made up of many members who are distinguished one from the other by functions for which they have a fixed structure. In the Body, the bishops have the function of teaching and guiding, and this task they perform through the power of the Spirit who transfuses the whole Body, making each member effective in his function.

The Body is one, and so the episcopate is one, and the unity of the episcopate is achieved through solidarity with the prime source of Episcopal power, the Bishop of Rome. In the Catholic vision the pope teaches in the name of the episcopate and the episcopate teaches in the name of the Church and the Church teaches in the name of Christ, and Christ teaches in the name of God.

well, there are Scriptural tests for the health of any nation; borders increasing or decreasing, and some others, but again these may be viewed as real life, or the illusion. I understand your vision of Universal Dominion, pretty much every religion has it ok, but wadr the Church is not a visible fellowship organized by any man, because by definition anyone not in the organized fellowship would then be considered lost, and God does not judge that way. Where two or three are gathered in His Name is where Christ is, and not knocking gathering together, understand, but it is self-serving to think that your "church" is the Church, and it ends up being a not-very-subtle way to look down on everyone else, in the end. It is just a way to feel superior to other people.

And so now we could go into whether the RCC is "growing" or not--we already know that it isn't--but if that is where one's heart is, it would not be heard anyway, and i am not here to put your religion down, anyone can see that these are all melting right now, along with the rest of our world, so it seems better to me to get a definition of religion in general that is closer to truth, and lines up with what the Bible says about it, if one can. And we have direct warnings about these "visions" that you speak of, with all due respect, that will not serve you as long as you believe that the prime source of episcopal power is some guy in Rome. Now i don't mean to imply that one cannot serve God right where they are at, wherever that happens to be, but as long as one is a slave to a system of human power, or pledges allegiance to it, or however you want to put it, then they would do better to put down the Bible, and pick up a copy of The Prince, because you cannot serve two masters, pretend however you might.

You can pretend that the pope is between you and Christ if you like, it isn't Scriptural, and i'm not even sure why you get touchy when it is suggested that Christians do not believe in this doctrine, unless, again, you believe that the label "Christian" is maybe somehow required in order to be considered savable? So again i am seeing shades of the ritual part being taken for the real thing, and at this point it kind of reads like trying to put Humpty together again wadr, like i see with Detroit and Flint--the "heart" of our old system, that is dead now--trying to "rebuild" their tax base. Believe all that as long as it serves you ok. Maybe when all of your kids are autistic, or gay, and no one you know ever dies peacefully in their sleep anymore, we can have a real conversation; because we aren't right now. When's the last time one of your peers died peacefully in their sleep, full of years, and full of vigor the day before? And i know, already, lol, lemme guess--i am not making any sense now, right?