When murder is legal

[Webers_Home]

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†. Ex 20:13 . .You shall not kill.

The Hebrew word for "kill" in that commandment is a bit ambiguous, but
additional commandments indicate that the killing in Ex 20:13 means
murder.

†. Ex 21:13-14 . . If a man schemes and kills another man deliberately, you
shall take him away from my very altar and put him to death.

†. Num 35:31 . . Do not accept a ransom for the life of a murderer, who
deserves to die. He must surely be put to death.

Can one of the Lord's sheep go to hell for murder? No; and in point of fact,
they couldn't go to hell even if they broke all ten of the ten commandments;
and the reason is that the commandments have jurisdiction over people only
while they're alive.

†. Rom 7:1-3 . . Are you unaware, brothers (for I am speaking to people
who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over one as long as one
lives? Thus a married woman is bound by law to her living husband; but if
her husband dies, she is released from the law in respect to her husband.
Consequently, while her husband is alive she will be called an adulteress if
she consorts with another man. But if her husband dies she is free from that
law, and she is not an adulteress if she consorts with another man.

That is a really difficult revelation to make sense of for those of us raised as
Catholics. We had it drilled into us since practically the first day of catechism
that the commandments are mortal sins. Well; they are mortal sins for
everybody else but not for the Lord's sheep because, as far as God is
concerned, the Lord's sheep are deceased.

†. Rom 6:3 . . Are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus
were baptized into his death?

†. Rom 6:6 . .We know that our old self was crucified with him

†. Rom 7:4 . . You were put to death to the law through the body of Christ,

†. Gal 2:19 . . I have been crucified with Christ

†. Col 3:3 . . For you have died

In reality then, and in practicality, the Lord's sheep enjoy just as much
immunity to God's laws against murder as Cain did. That is quite an
advantage.

Buen Camino
/

 

[lforrest]

It is wonderful that we have a God who loves us so much he is willing to forgive even murder. There is no advantage for the Lord's sheep however, because the act of murder is proof they are not who they claim to be.

1 John 3:15

Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15 Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.

 

[Webers_Home]

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lforrest, on 29 Jan 2013 - 21:26, said : It is wonderful that we have a
God who loves us so much he is willing to forgive even murder.

I think it is even more wonderful that God donated His own son's life to
ransom murderers from the wrath of God.

lforrest, on 29 Jan 2013 - 21:26, said : There is no advantage for the
Lord's sheep however, because the act of murder is proof they are not
who they claim to be.

You feel that way because you don't know the difference between somebody
possessing eternal life and somebody having it residing within them. It's very
possible for someone to possess eternal life, and still be dead.

†. Rom 8:13-14 . . For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by
the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Yet the below is true too.

†. Rom 8:1-2 . .There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in
Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free
from the law of sin and of death.

To have eternal life residing within someone indicates that they are being
controlled by the divine nature as opposed to being controlled by the human
nature.

†. Rom 8:11 . . And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living
in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies
through his Spirit, who lives in you.

That verse is commonly misunderstood to be speaking about the future; but
it's not. No, it's speaking about the here and now. Giving life to somebody's
mortal body indicates releasing them from the grip of their natural-born human
nature and empowering them with a heaven-born divine nature. Someone in whom
eternal life is residing is not going to be the same person they were before
they underwent the supernatural birth about which the Lord spoke at John 3:3-8.
However, the reality is: though every born-again believer possesses eternal
life, not every born-again believer has it residing within them. A number of
born-again believers are content to live in the flesh rather than live in the Spirit.
In point of fact, I'd dare to say that living in the flesh is probably the norm for
most born-again believers.

Buen Camino
/

 

[Selene]

I don't think murder is ever legal even among His own sheep. But when His own sheep does commit murder, He forgives if the sheep is repentant.

 

[Webers_Home]

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Post #1 it doesn't mean believers have a 007 license to kill. It simply means
that killing won't put them in danger of the reservoir of liquefied flame depicted
at Rev 20:10-15. However; there's still civil law to reckon with.

Civil law is a whole other jurisdiction than divine law. In the world of civil
law, the Lord's sheep have no immunity at all; but are instead warned at
Rom 13:1-6 to comply with the law of the land or risk severe civil penalties for
failure to do so: even capital punishment. In other words; believers won't go
to hell for murder; but God in no way guarantees them protection from the
gallows.

Buen Camino
/

 

[John_8:32]

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Post #1 it doesn't mean believers have a 007 license to kill. It simply means
that killing won't put them in danger of the reservoir of liquefied flame depicted
at Rev 20:10-15. However; there's still civil law to reckon with.

Civil law is a whole other jurisdiction than divine law. In the world of civil
law, the Lord's sheep have no immunity at all; but are instead warned at
Rom 13:1-6 to comply with the law of the land or risk severe civil penalties for
failure to do so: even capital punishment. In other words; believers won't go
to hell for murder; but God in no way guarantees them protection from the
gallows.

Buen Camino
/

????

Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

 

[Selene]

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Post #1 it doesn't mean believers have a 007 license to kill. It simply means
that killing won't put them in danger of the reservoir of liquefied flame depicted
at Rev 20:10-15. However; there's still civil law to reckon with.

Civil law is a whole other jurisdiction than divine law. In the world of civil
law, the Lord's sheep have no immunity at all; but are instead warned at
Rom 13:1-6 to comply with the law of the land or risk severe civil penalties for
failure to do so: even capital punishment. In other words; believers won't go
to hell for murder; but God in no way guarantees them protection from the
gallows.

Buen Camino
/

If a Christian murders another person and is not repentant of that murder, he is in danger of going to Hell.

 

[Webers_Home]

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Selene, on 31 Jan 2013 - 13:14, said : If a Christian murders another
person and is not repentant of that murder, he is in danger of going to Hell.

Hell is for make-believe Christians. Those like me who truly believe are in
no danger whatsoever; and repentance is for losers.

John_8:32, on 31 Jan 2013 - 12:32, said : Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that
it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill
shall be in danger of the judgment

Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without
a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his
brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou
fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

None of that applies to me. I'm out of its jurisdiction.

Buen Camino
/

 

[Selene]

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Selene, on 31 Jan 2013 - 13:14, said : If a Christian murders another
person and is not repentant of that murder, he is in danger of going to Hell.

Hell is for make-believe Christians. Those like me who truly believe are in
no danger whatsoever; and repentance is for losers.

John_8:32, on 31 Jan 2013 - 12:32, said : Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that
it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill
shall be in danger of the judgment

Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without
a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his
brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou
fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

None of that applies to me. I'm out of its jurisdiction.

Buen Camino
/

I disagree. A person with pride cannot enter Heaven.

 

[Webers_Home]

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Selene, on 31 Jan 2013 - 19:22, said : A person with pride cannot enter
Heaven.

Maybe you can't; but I can because I know how to circumvent all those kinds
of silly old-wives' tales.

Buen Camino
/

 

[Selene]

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Selene, on 31 Jan 2013 - 19:22, said : A person with pride cannot enter
Heaven.

Maybe you can't; but I can because I know how to circumvent all those kinds
of silly old-wives' tales.

Buen Camino
/

I don't think you can circumvent God.

 

[Webers_Home]

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Selene, on 31 Jan 2013 - 19:55, said : I don't think you can circumvent God.

It was God himself who got me past all those kinds of silly old-wives' tales.
Didn't you get anything useful out of post #1; anything at all? You know, for
people like you; Christ's sacrifice on the cross was futile-- just a waste of
perfectly good manhood. How tragic.

Buen Camino
/

 

[John_8:32]

Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

 

[Selene]

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Selene, on 31 Jan 2013 - 19:55, said : I don't think you can circumvent God.

It was God himself who got me past all those kinds of silly old-wives' tales.
Didn't you get anything useful out of post #1; anything at all? You know, for
people like you; Christ's sacrifice on the cross was futile-- just a waste of
perfectly good manhood. How tragic.

Buen Camino
/

Such humility.....NOT!

 

[Christian morocco]

Everyone who sin can not enter to heaven , going to heaven need repentance and faith.

 

[Webers_Home]

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Christian morocco, on 18 Feb 2013 - 09:42, said : eryone who sin can
not enter to heaven , going to heaven need repentance and faith.

Sin is a product of human nature. Now supposing there was a way to create
people all over again and in the process give them a nature that not only
doesn't sin; but can't sin?

What I've just proposed is what happens when people undergo the supernatural
regeneration about which Jesus spoke at John 3:3-8.

†. 1John 3:9 . .Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed
remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

My natural self sins because Adam's seed is in it. My regenerated self never
sins because God's seed is in it; viz: I'm a man of two selfs: the one natural,
and the other supernatural. When John wrote the passages below, he was
referring to my natural self.

†.1John 1:8 . . If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the
truth is not in us.

†. 1John 1:10 . . If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and
his word is not in us.

The pronouns "we" and "ourselves" and "us" of course refer to John and to
people who have undergone the supernatural regeneration about which
Jesus spoke at John 3:3-8 rather than just any old rank and file pew warmer
who happens to be looking in. John's first epistle was, after all, written to
people who were in possession of eternal life even before his letter arrived.
Note the grammatical tense of his "have" verb in the text below. It's present
tense rather than future; indicating that believers have eternal life right now--
no delay and no waiting period.

†. 1John 5:13 . .These things I have written to you who believe in the name
of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.

Since eternal life is a species of life that cannot die, then it's impervious to
the wages of sin.

†. Rom 6:23 . .The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life
in Christ Jesus our Lord.

And since eternal life is impervious to the wages of sin, then it has full and
complete immunity from prosecution no matter how many sins those in
possession of it commit.

†. John 5:24 . . I assure you: those who listen to my message, and believe
in God who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for
their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

Buen Camino
/

 

[Axehead]

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Christian morocco, on 18 Feb 2013 - 09:42, said : eryone who sin can
not enter to heaven , going to heaven need repentance and faith.

Sin is a product of human nature. Now supposing there was a way to create
people all over again and in the process give them a nature that not only
doesn't sin; but can't sin?

What I've just proposed is what happens when people undergo the supernatural
regeneration about which Jesus spoke at John 3:3-8.

†. 1John 3:9 . .Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed
remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

My natural self sins because Adam's seed is in it. My regenerated self never
sins because God's seed is in it; viz: I'm a man of two selfs: the one natural,
and the other supernatural. When John wrote the passages below, he was
referring to my natural self.

†.1John 1:8 . . If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the
truth is not in us.

†. 1John 1:10 . . If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and
his word is not in us.

The pronouns "we" and "ourselves" and "us" of course refer to John and to
people who have undergone the supernatural regeneration about which
Jesus spoke at John 3:3-8 rather than just any old rank and file pew warmer
who happens to be looking in. John's first epistle was, after all, written to
people who were in possession of eternal life even before his letter arrived.
Note the grammatical tense of his "have" verb in the text below. It's present
tense rather than future; indicating that believers have eternal life right now--
no delay and no waiting period.

†. 1John 5:13 . .These things I have written to you who believe in the name
of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.

Since eternal life is a species of life that cannot die, then it's impervious to
the wages of sin.

†. Rom 6:23 . .The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life
in Christ Jesus our Lord.

And since eternal life is impervious to the wages of sin, then it has full and
complete immunity from prosecution no matter how many sins those in
possession of it commit.

†. John 5:24 . . I assure you: those who listen to my message, and believe
in God who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for
their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

Buen Camino
/

Do we have to take responsibility for anything that we do, think or say in this Temple or am I misunderstanding you?

 

[Webers_Home]

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Axehead, on 19 Feb 2013 - 07:10, said : Do we have to take responsibility
for anything that we do, think or say in this Temple?

Hell is no longer an issue for believers who have undergone supernatural
regeneration as per John 3:3-8, Their issue now is fellowship; which is a
family matter rather than a criminal matter. In other words: their sins
sometimes result in discipline: which can be roughly defined as punishment
intended to correct bad behavior rather than to mete justice.

Some people are of the opinion that the cross obstructs justice; but no, on
the contrary, the cross satisfies justice; thus making it possible for God to
treat believers as naughty children who need to be taught a lesson instead
of criminals who should to be locked away somewhere in a penal colony.

In a nutshell; believers who have undergone supernatural regeneration as
per John 3:3-8 need not fear hell; but they do need fear being taken to the
woodshed.

Buen Camino
/

 

[country_lad]

I disagree. A person with pride cannot enter Heaven.

Proverbs 8:13
The fear of the Lord is to hate evil;
Pride and arrogance and the evil way
And the perverse mouth I hate.

Proverbs 11:2
When pride comes, then comes shame;
But with the humble is wisdom.

Proverbs 13:10
By pride comes nothing but strife,
But with the well-advised is wisdom

James 4:6
But He gives more grace. Therefore He says:

“God resists the proud,
But gives grace to the humble.”

Matthew 18:1-4

At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”
2 Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, 3 and said, “Assuredly,
I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children,
you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.


I agree with you that pride is not from God. Satan was full of pride. Jesus is humble.

 

[Axehead]

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Axehead, on 19 Feb 2013 - 07:10, said : Do we have to take responsibility
for anything that we do, think or say in this Temple?

Hell is no longer an issue for believers who have undergone supernatural
regeneration as per John 3:3-8, Their issue now is fellowship; which is a
family matter rather than a criminal matter. In other words: their sins
sometimes result in discipline: which can be roughly defined as punishment
intended to correct bad behavior rather than to mete justice.

Some people are of the opinion that the cross obstructs justice; but no, on
the contrary, the cross satisfies justice; thus making it possible for God to
treat believers as naughty children who need to be taught a lesson instead
of criminals who should to be locked away somewhere in a penal colony.

In a nutshell; believers who have undergone supernatural regeneration as
per John 3:3-8 need not fear hell; but they do need fear being taken to the
woodshed.

Buen Camino
/

You need not fear hell unless you walk away from the Lord and the Spirit of God leaves you. I don't mean having an argument with Him, I mean really walking away from Him and hating him and telling Him by your actions that you want nothing to do with Him or His cross. Of course, there is a crowd that would say, then "you were not really regenerated".

So then really this whole discussion is a moot point. Let's wait until the end of each person's life and see if the confession of their lips matches their confession and actions just before they die. Do they still love the Lord or do they hate Him?

I don't put much stock in what people say if their lives don't line up with their words.

You can tell me that that you walked the aisle 25 years ago and prayed a prayer and were spiritually regenerated, and maybe you were....of course, maybe you were not, too. A lot of people think they are regenerated, don't they?

I don't think it is a proper attitude of a regenerated person to think, "the woodshed is no problem, at least I missed hell". That is some dangerous thinking.