When Tempted, Giving over to [Willful] Sin equates to Eternal Death, not Eternal Life.

[Joseph77]

Luk 1:3
it seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write to you an orderly account, most excellent Theophilus,


Concerning His Disciples >>>

Jhn 17:23

“I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

Col 1:28
Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.

Col 4:12

Epaphras, who is one of you, a bondservant of Christ, greets you, always laboring fervently for you in prayers, that you may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.

1Th 3:10

night and day praying exceedingly that we may see your face and perfect what is lacking in your faith?

Heb 2:10

For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

 

[Joseph77]

Jas 1:4
But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.

Jas 1:17

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

 

[Joseph77]

Jas 2:22
Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?


1Pe 5:10
But may the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, (may God) perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you.

 

[Paul Christensen]

The state of God's word is not what you have been sayingyou have said that in order to be saved one must be perfect.
I repeat this has never been a condition for being saved.

I have never said that. Perhaps you have not read any of my other posts on different threads. We can never be perfect in ourselves, and any attempt to try will just cause us to be self-righteous. The qualification for being saved is that we need to be convicted of our sin, that we deserve hell, and there is no way we can please God by trying to keep His moral law.

Many come into Christianity without knowing that about themselves, and all they achieve is just religion - an outward observance but not from their hearts.

 

[Dave M]

Here is a good article that explains it better then I can.

The author of Psalm 19, King David, presents two types of sin, hidden (unintentional, accidental, secret, unseen by the sinner) and presumptuous (deliberate, intentional). We all know that our intentional sins need God’s forgiveness (Exodus 32:33; Mark 3:29). But God’s perfect law also requires our unintentional sins to be forgiven, whether committed by an ordinary person, a priest, a community leader, or a whole nation (Leviticus 4; 5:17; Numbers 15:22–29). So David humbly prays to God for protection and forgiveness from both kinds of sin, knowing his own human weakness and powerlessness against this enemy, this disease of the soul, this foreign invader in all humans (1 John 1:8).

What are presumptuous sins? | GotQuestions.org

 

[Dave M]

Can a Christian commit sin without being aware that their actions were sinful?


Yes it is possible for a person to sin without knowing it, including a Christian. Sin is any offense against God, and even when we lack a full knowledge of what offends God or the self-awareness to recognize that our actions are offensive, nevertheless we are still acting in a way that offends Him.

The Bible teaches this truth in both the Old and New Testament. In the Law given to Israel through Moses, the Lord described many requirements for the people of Israel. God told them not to murder and not to commit adultery, but Jesus said that hating a person was equivalent to murder in the sense that it was a sin coming from a similar sinful heart. Likewise, lusting was equivalent to adultery, Jesus said.

So even though Israel's Law did not prohibit lusting or hating specifically, those behaviors were still sin. Undoubtedly, many Jews were guilty of these unnamed sins and never knew it. Therefore, God specifically described unintentional sin in the Law:

Lev. 5:17 “Now if a person sins and does any of the things which the LORD has commanded not to be done, though he was unaware, still he is guilty and shall bear his punishment.
Lev. 5:18 “He is then to bring to the priest a ram without defect from the flock, according to your valuation, for a guilt offering. So the priest shall make atonement for him concerning his error in which he sinned unintentionally and did not know it, and it will be forgiven him.
Notice the Lord said that even when a person is unaware of their sin, he is still guilty. For this reason, God made a sacrifice available to the people of God in the Law to cover their unintentional sin.

Similarly, today Christians can sin in ways we don't fully appreciate, but our ignorance doesn't lessen our sin. We are supposed to remain forever in study of His word and under counsel of the Spirit so that we might better understand God's expectations and thereby cease sinning. Nevertheless, by our faith in Christ all our sins are forgiven - both those we know and those we don't know - so that we stand before Him eternally justified. Praise the Lord for His grace!

Can someone sin and not know it?

 

[Paul Christensen]

So, you do not have Jesus !?
I do not think that is what you want us to think, do you ?

If you were regularly involved in evangelism and getting the gospel out to the unsaved, you would understand what I am saying.

 

[Joseph77]

If you were regularly involved in evangelism and getting the gospel out to the unsaved, you would understand what I am saying.

I understand what you are saying ( I think)
..
some posts are for further clarification for the readers,
and sometimes for myself too.

 

[Paul Christensen]

I understand what you are saying ( I think)
..
some posts are for further clarification for the readers,
and sometimes for myself too.

People have to realise that they are not good before they will turn to Christ with all their hearts.

 

[Renniks]

Thanks for finding that. I stand corrected. Now can you tell me why finding the gate is so difficult?

That's a good question. One, I think the human tendency is to try to earn salvation... In fact if you talk to the average man on the street, almost everyone thinks the way to get to heaven is be a good person.
So the message of radical trust in Jesus alone, is difficult because we wanted to think we earn our own way.

Two, a lot of people are looking for reward in this life. But Jesus speaks of taking up a cross to follow him. Doesn't really sound appealing.

Three, the devil is only too happy to supply false religions that appeal to our egos.

 

[Paul Christensen]

That's a good question. One, I think the human tendency is to try to earn salvation... In fact if you talk to the average man on the street, almost everyone thinks the way to get to heaven is be a good person.
So the message of radical trust in Jesus alone, is difficult because we wanted to think we earn our own way.

Two, a lot of people are looking for reward in this life. But Jesus speaks of taking up a cross to follow him. Doesn't really sound appealing.

Three, the devil is only too happy to supply false religions that appeal to our egos.

The problem with much of today's evangelism and soul-winning is that we are treating the unsaved as if they have a Jewish world view. What I mean by that is the Jewish world view is that God is real and the Bible is true.

When Paul went and preached to the Greeks on Mars Hill, he didn't come at them with the Jewish world view, because they would not have understood it, because their world view was pagan and evolutionary. So Paul concentrated on an altar of the "Unknown God", and explained that God as the creator of the world, and then went on to explain that God sent His Son to died on the cross and be resurrected from the dead. He did not quote the Scriptures at all, because they would be foreign to them.

In our present neo-pagan society, there is a significant trend away from believing that God exists and that the Bible is more than just another book. So we can't come to the unsaved with the Jewish world view, because they will just laugh and walk away, which they often do when the Bible is quoted to them.

We need to come to the unsaved as though they are "Greeks" who have a pagan, evolutionist, world view. We need to challenge their view of their own goodness and what may happen to them when they die, which we all have to.

 

[Paul Christensen]

The best way to start a conversation with an atheist, homosexual, Buddhist, a Muslim, or even a professing Christian, is to ask the question: "Are you a good person?" This is a non-judgmental, non threatening way to start a conversation about the gospel to an unsaved person.

Then we can ask them Commandment-based questions to test them, and usually they will acknowledge that they aren't as good as they though they were. Then the question would be asked, "If there is a judgment, would you be guilty or not guilty". They would acknowledge that they would be guilty. Then they could be asked what they could do about it. After that, the gospel could be presented to show that Jesus came to die for them on the cross to have God dismiss their case because Jesus has paid their "fine" for them.

This is a very non-threatening, non offensive, non-Bible banging way of sharing the gospel. There is no pressure on the person to receive Christ, because our job is to just tell them the gospel and leave the choice up to them to receive it, without any pressure from us.

I have watched many Living Waters Com videos where this method is put into practice with very positive results with unsaved and other-religion folk listening and parting from the street preacher very amicably, even if the conversation started out acrimoniously.

 

[Joseph77]

How did Jesus start a conversation? (with someone no 'normal' Jew would even talk to) ?

6 Now Jacob’s well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied from His journey, sat thus by the well. It was about the sixth hour.
7 A woman of Samaria came to draw water. Jesus said to her, “Give Me a drink.”
8 For His disciples had gone away into the city to buy food.
9 Then the woman of Samaria said to Him, “How is it that You, being a Jew, ask a drink from me, a Samaritan woman?” For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.
10 Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”

 

[Jay Ross]

The best way to start a conversation with an atheist, homosexual, Buddhist, a Muslim, or even a professing Christian, is to ask the question: "Are you a good person?" This is a non-judgemental, non threatening way to start a conversation about the gospel to an unsaved person.

Then we can ask them Commandment-based questions to test them, and usually they will acknowledge that they aren't as good as they though they were. Then the question would be asked, "If there is a judgement, would you be guilty or not guilty". They would acknowledge that they would be guilty. Then they could be asked what they could do about it. After that, the gospel could be presented to show that Jesus came to die for them on the cross to have God dismiss their case because Jesus has paid their "fine" for them.

This is a very non-threatening, non offensive, non-Bible banging way of sharing the gospel. There is no pressure on the person to receive Christ, because our job is to just tell them the gospel and leave the choice up to them to receive it, without any pressure from us.

I have watched many Living Waters Com videos where this method is put into practice with very positive results with unsaved and other-religion folk listening and parting from the street preacher very amicably, even if the conversation started out acrimoniously.

What about asking, "How are you feeling about your relationship with the "god" that you are worshipping right now?"

This is an open question where one person is asking another person to express how they are feeling about their relationship with the "god" that they are worshipping. Whereas, your question is a closed question in that it only required a "yes" or "no" response.

My suggested question has cut to the chase about talking about "god," and is not offensive in that it is not looking for a judgemental response on the part of the other person. It also allows us to relate about how we are feeling about the "god" that we are worshipping right at that moment as well. The conversation can develop as it is an open ended conversion, where the other person is not being threatened by the direction that they will lead the conversation in.

The above question is about establishing a non threatening relationship with the person first.

So often "Christians" want an immediate black and white answer rather than taking the people around them on a journey of discovering God together as we experience Him in our lives.

Shalom

 

[Paul Christensen]

What about asking, "How are you feeling about your relationship with the "god" that you are worshipping right now?"

This is an open question where one person is asking another person to express how they are feeling about their relationship with the "god" that they are worshipping. Whereas, your question is a closed question in that it only required a "yes" or "no" response.

My suggested question has cut to the chase about talking about "god," and is not offensive in that it is not looking for a judgemental response on the part of the other person. It also allows us to relate about how we are feeling about the "god" that we are worshipping right at that moment as well. The conversation can develop as it is an open ended conversion, where the other person is not being threatened by the direction that they will lead the conversation in.

The above question is about establishing a non threatening relationship with the person first.

So often "Christians" want an immediate black and white answer rather than taking the people around them on a journey of discovering God together as we experience Him in our lives.

Shalom

The answer could very well be, "I don't believe in any gods"; then you'd be scuppered, or else be sucked into the bottomless vortex of a fruitless debate, as we see so much on this forum!

 

[Joseph77]

The answer could very well be, "I don't believe in any gods"; then you'd be scuppered, or else be sucked into the bottomless vortex of a fruitless debate, as we see so much on this forum!

I saw someone argue with others for fourteen years without once ever doing what Jesus says to do = they only brought deception, distraction, and troubles wherever they went.
As far as I know of, only one small group silenced them, in just two weeks. They said "good bye" we won't put up with your sinful shenanigans (because the sinfulness was so willful, and they never asked for help, and they never took the advice of anyone that would have helped them) ....

On this forum, that is not feasible. Anyone from anywhere can post their beliefs and desires and sins and so on, without end (apparently).

 

[Paul Christensen]

I saw someone argue with others for fourteen years without once ever doing what Jesus says to do = they only brought deception, distraction, and troubles wherever they went.
As far as I know of, only one small group silenced them, in just two weeks. They said "good bye" we won't put up with your sinful shenanigans (because the sinfulness was so willful, and they never asked for help, and they never took the advice of anyone that would have helped them) ....

On this forum, that is not feasible. Anyone from anywhere can post their beliefs and desires and sins and so on, without end (apparently).

Maybe they went about sharing the gospel in the wrong way and got the appropriate response.

 

[Jay Ross]

The answer could very well be, "I don't believe in any gods"; then you'd be scuppered, or else be sucked into the bottomless vortex of a fruitless debate, as we see so much on this forum!

It really depends on whether or not you are attempting to build a relationship with the person or not. The best response to a response of "I don't believe in any gods.", is to say, "Really? Then, what or who is the most important thing/person in your life?" and see where that conversation goes.

Another question that I will ask of a person is, "Are you prepared to die for what you believe?", as the responses can be very enlightening.

Shalom

 

[Joseph77]

Maybe they went about sharing the gospel in the wrong way and got the appropriate response.

No. They did not know, have, nor believe the gospel, except "in name" only (with no power to save or be healed).
They were not trying to share the gospel. They did not know the gospel.

They refused to listen to anyone sharing the gospel.

 

[Paul Christensen]

It really depends on whether or not you are attempting to build a relationship with the person or not. The best response to a response of "I don't believe in any gods.", is to say, "Really? Then, what or who is the most important thing/person in your life?" and see where that conversation goes.

Another question that I will ask of a person is, "Are you prepared to die for what you believe?", as the responses can be very enlightening.

Shalom

Every person has a conscience. This is a God-given alarm bell that activates when we do something against it. If I look at a woman in a short skirt on a windy day with lust, my conscience will tell me, "That is not right! You are committing adultery in your heart!" If I am to obey my conscience then I will ask forgiveness from the Lord and strength from the Holy Spirit to keep my mind and heart clean.

When a person is convicted in their conscience, they respond in two different ways. They try to discredit what it is saying to them either through an action, or someone else reminding them that they are doing wrong, to ease their conscience. That is why there are so many acidic and abusive reactionary posts on this forum - it is because their conscience has been pricked and they don't want to obey it, and so they rubbish the person who posted the comment that has pricked it.

Or, if a person allows their own conscience to teach them right from wrong, when they hear something that activates their conscience, they will listen further and want to know more about how to ease their conscience in the right way. When Nathan challenged David about his adultery, David listened to his conscience and got right with God. But when King Ahab heard the prophecy of Michaiah and his conscience was pricked, he threw the prophet into prison and listened to his own false prophets to ease his conscience.

The mistake that many Christian workers make is to try and speak to the unsaved person's mind instead of their conscience. Asking what "god" they worship does not get to their conscience. But getting them to examine their conduct through the Ten Commandments will; because our conscience is inseparately linked to the Ten Commandments.

Those who protest that "we are not under the law", and "preaching law is just condemning people and not attracting them to Christ", are missing the Biblical statement that those who are without Christ are condemned already. Getting them to test their conduct in terms of the Ten Commandments is just reminding their consciences that they are condemned because they are not keeping the Commandments and therefore are in danger of the judgment.

This is why the majority of Christian workers are just wasting their time and effort trying to get the gospel across to the unsaved, because they are not succeeding, and often they become discouraged over the lack of results and just give up and concentrate on their church attendance and religious activities.