Prove me wrong in the Scriptures I have given you.
2Ti_2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
J.
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Prove me wrong in the Scriptures I have given you.
2Ti_2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
J.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
you're sidestepping the point Johann......and by the way, I've edited my last entry by adding to it.
The topic was "cessation" after death.
Is it biblical?
Guess if it is not, I can live like the world, "live it up" eat, drink and be merry for there will be no consequences..not so?
Again, the topic was "cessation" after death.
Is this assertion biblical?
You want to show me ONE scripture that might hint at this?
The dead is a reference to a mortal body, which must die.
That which is in hell, is living souls, sent to hell. They don’t physically die, then wake up.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Even OT men understood, body’s are mortal, they die. Living souls depart the dead body.
Gen 35:
[18] And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died)...regarding Rachel.
NT men understood, body’s are mortal, they die, they are buried, they rot return to dust.
Souls depart and continue living, in comfort WITH God, or in misery WITHOUT God.
Luke 16, an unbelieving rich man dies, is buried. In hell, (living soul), the rich man, sees, hears, speaks, feels, tastes, smells, desires comfort, but is separated from God in misery.
Luke 16:
[19] There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
[20] And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
[21] And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
[22] And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
[23] And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
[24] And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
[25] But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
A body’s life is it’s blood, physical.
All body’s must die. God requires it.
Soul Life is Gods Breath, spiritual.
Gen 28:
[5] And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
Ezek 18:
[4] Behold, all souls are mine;...saith the Lord.
Gen 6:
[17] And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
Also See Post #28
Well, there is that JUDGEMENT DAY thingy...
From the beginning of Creation of the World, there has always been A DIVISION factor.
Without opposition, this and that, light and dark, in and out, up and down, good and evil, there is no consequence for right, there is no consequence for wrong.
Our freewill options, choices, elections, thoughts, doings, simply reveal, via knowledge...what our present consequence ARE and what our future consequences SHALL be.
Total annihilation...well yes and no.
A body destroyed..yes...after the life of the body departs (it’s life is it’s blood)
A soul destroyed....yes..after God takes back His life (ie His breath), in the soul..soul destroyed.
But then Everything created does not “disappear”, it simply is changed (made), into a form that is not recognizable from it original form.
Body’s were dust, became formed, called a man.
Body’s that mortally die, return to dust.
Body’s resurrected, become made formed.
Body’s destroyed, (by fire), become ash.
Matt 10:
[28] And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
@Taken, I have shared numerous scripture references to quitethinker that cessation/total annihilation is not biblical, maybe I should give scripture references to him in Greek and Hebrew?
Jesus Christ says in Matthew 25:41, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into EVERLASTING FIRE, prepared for the devil and his angels." In Matthew 13:42, Jesus says: "And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." HELL IS FOREVER! All who enter hell — abandon all hope!
Ecclesiastes 12:7 says tells us what happens when a person dies. It says, “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was; and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.” In other words, when a person dies, his or her spirit goes back to God, the body returns to dust and the soul of that person no longer exist.
Is hell eternal torment?
Hell is most certainly a place of eternal torment.
“They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb” (Revelation 14:10).
Jesus gave a compelling description of the torment of Hades in Luke 16:19-31. Some think it only a parable, but the graphic description of Lazarus, named by Jesus, indicates a real-life story. A man named Lazarus, covered with sores, was laid (implying he was unable to walk) at the gate of a wealthy man’s home. Lazarus was starving, longing to eat the crumbs falling from the rich man’s table.
Lazarus died and was carried away by the angels to the arms of Abraham. The rich man also died and went to Hades, where he was in torment. He saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his arms. And he cried out, “Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus, so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.” Abraham told him there was a great chasm between them that could not be crossed. Then the rich man begged Abraham to send Lazarus to his father’s house – to warn his five brothers of the torments of Hades.
Jesus’ account makes it clear that the torment of hell is conscious suffering. In the same way that Lazarus longed for a crumb to eat, the rich man longed for a drop of water to relieve his agony. The Rich man was screaming, “help! Have mercy! It’s hot!” He was burning in agony. We can’t deny the words of Jesus. Jesus was teaching everlasting pain and torment.
Jesus’ account dismisses the false doctrine of annihilation – the belief that there is no eternal, conscious suffering in hell because lost souls will simply stop existing or pass into a dreamless sleep. This is not what the Bible says! “They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.” (Revelation 20:10). Many people say things like, “God is love He wouldn’t throw anyone into hell.” However, the Bible also says that God is holy, God hates, God is just, and God is a consuming fire. It is absolutely terrifying when the wrath of God is upon someone.
5. Hebrews 10:31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
6. Hebrews 12:29 for our God is a consuming fire.
7. Luke 16:19-28 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us. “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
Blessings
J.
..and this is where I disagree withe you Taken, the pshuhe is not destroyed...(kai psuchēn kai sōma apolesai en geennēi). Note “soul” here of the eternal spirit, not just life in the body. “Destroy” here is not annihilation, but eternal punishment in Gehenna (the real hell)
- New Testament
- The Hebrew Sheol is translated by the Greek Hades (the unseen world)
- Hades characterized (much like Sheol)
- refers to death, Matt. 16:18
- linked to death, Rev. 1:18; 6:8; 20:13-14
- often analogous to the place of permanent punishment (Gehenna), Matt. 11:23 OT quote); Luke 10:15; 16:23-24
- often analogous to the grave, Luke 16:23
- Possibly divided (rabbis)
- righteous part called Paradise (really another name for heaven, cf. 2 Cor. 12:4; Rev. 2:7), Luke 23:43
- wicked part called Tartarus, a holding place far below Hades, 2 Peter 2:4, where it is a holding place for evil angels (cf. Genesis 6; I Enoch). It is associated with the "Abyss," Luke 8:31; Rom. 10:7; Rev. 9:1-2,11; 11:7; 17:18; 20:1,3
- Gehenna
- Reflects the OT phrase, "the valley of the sons of Hinnom," (south of Jerusalem). It was the place where the Phoenician fire god, Molech (BDB 574, KB 591), was worshiped by child sacrifice (cf. 2 Kgs. 16:3; 21:6; 2 Chr. 28:3; 33:6), which was forbidden in Lev. 18:21; 20:2-5.
- Jeremiah changed it from a place of pagan worship into a site of YHWH's judgment (cf. Jer. 7:32; 19:6-7). It became the place of fiery, eternal judgment in I Enoch 90:26-27 and Sib. 1:103.
- The Jews of Jesus' day were so appalled by their ancestors' participation in pagan worship by child sacrifice, that they turned this area into the garbage dump for Jerusalem. Much of Jesus' imagery for eternal judgment came from this landfill (fire, smoke, worms, stench, cf. Mark 9:44,46). The term Gehenna is used only by Jesus (except in James 3:6).
- Jesus' usage of Gehenna
- fire, Matt. 5:22; 18:9; Mark 9:43
- permanent, Mark 9:48 (Matt. 25:46)
- place of destruction (both soul and body), Matt. 10:28
- paralleled to Sheol, Matt. 5:29-30; 18:9
- characterizes the wicked as "son of hell," Matt. 23:15
- result of judicial sentence, Matt. 23:33; Luke 12:5
- the concept of Gehenna is parallel to the second death (cf. Rev. 2:11; 20:6,14) or the lake of fire (cf. Matt. 13:42,50; Rev. 19:20; 20:10,14-15; 21:8). It is possible the lake of fire becomes the permanent dwelling place of humans (from Sheol) and evil angels (from Tartarus, 2 Pet. 2:4; Jude 1:6 or the abyss, cf. Luke 8:31; Rev. 9:1-11; 20:1,3).
- it was not designed for humans, but for Satan and his angels, Matt. 25:41
- It is possible, because of the overlap of Sheol, Hades, and Gehenna that
- originally all humans went to Sheol/Hades
- their experience there (good/bad) is exacerbated after Judgment Day, but the place of the wicked remains the same (this is why the KJV translated hades (grave) as gehenna (hell)
- the only NT text to mention torment before Judgment is the parable of Luke 16:19-31 (Lazarus and the Rich Man). Sheol is also described as a place of punishment now (cf. Deut. 32:22; Ps. 18:1-5). However, one cannot establish a doctrine on a parable.
- The Hebrew Sheol is translated by the Greek Hades (the unseen world)
- Intermediate state between death and resurrection
- The NT does not teach the "immortality of the soul," which is one of several ancient views of the after life, which asserts that
- human souls exist before their physical life
- human souls are eternal before and after physical death
- often the physical body is seen as a prison and death as release back to pre-existent state (i.e., Greek thought)
- The NT hints at a disembodied state between death and resurrection
- Jesus speaks of a division between body and soul, Matt. 10:28
- Abraham may already have a body, Mark 12:26-27; Luke 16:23
- Moses and Elijah have a physical body at the transfiguration, Matthew 17
- Paul asserts that at the Second Coming dead believers with Christ will get their new bodies first, 1 Thess. 4:13-18
- Paul asserts that believers get their new spiritual bodies on Resurrection Day, 1 Cor. 15:23,52
- Paul asserts that believers do not go to Hades, but at death are with Jesus, 2 Cor. 5:6,8; Phil. 1:23. Jesus overcame death and took the righteous to heaven with Him, 1 Pet. 3:18-22.
Utley.
Blessings
J.
- The NT does not teach the "immortality of the soul," which is one of several ancient views of the after life, which asserts that
This was a rather incorrect eisegesis on your part, don't you think Taken?
Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the basar (flesh), but are unable to kill the nefesh (soul); but rather fear the One who is able to destroy both basar and nefesh in Gehinnom.
OJB
Is this a Remez, Drash or a Sod?
Can the ψυχὴν die?
Should we not ... Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual...
comparing scripture with other passages of scripture?
..and this is where I disagree withe you Taken, the pshuhe is not destroyed...(kai psuchēn kai sōma apolesai en geennēi). Note “soul” here of the eternal spirit, not just life in the body. “Destroy” here is not annihilation, but eternal punishment in Gehenna (the real hell)
Can the Spirit, or Soul, Be Destroyed?
Soul Cannot Die
The Scripture says the spirit, or soul, cannot be annihilated. Though the body may die, the spirit will live on. Death, therefore is not the end of conscious life. It is the separation of the body and the spirit. The spirit, however, lives on in another realm. The body is only the temporary residence of humans. Jesus said.
Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell (Matthew 10:28).
Destroy has the idea of punish, not annihilate. The destruction of the soul means separation from the life of God. Though living, the soul of the unbeliever has no connection whatsoever to God.
Souls Under Altar
The Bible speaks of souls of the dead being under the altar.
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained (Revelation 6:9).
They were still existing after their physical death.
Second Death
If death were the end of existence, then why does the Bible speak of the second death of unbelievers?
Let anyone who has an ear listen to what the Spirit is saying to the churches. Whoever conquers will not be harmed by the second death (Revelation 2:11).
Men are not fire. The fire is everlasting.
Already said the body dies, returns to dust.
God is Just.
Men who desired to believe and be WITH God, SHALL, be with God.
Men who desired to not believe and be WITHOUT God, SHALL be without God.
Heaven is where living soul go to be WITH God, once their body dies.
Heaven is where a mans born again spirit goes to be WITH God, once their body dies.
Hell is where living souls go to be WITHOUT God, once their body dies.
A man no born again, has no living born again spirit, it dies with his body.
Not familiar with such Scripture.
Not a question I asked.
Hell has different facets, aspects, levels, whatever you want to call it...
same as earth, same as heaven.
Most OT souls of men, Saved and Unsaved, occupied Hell.
The Saved experienced Comfort. The Unsaved experience Torments.
Hell being a place of eternal torment, would require something eternally living to experience the torment.
Body’s have not been sent to hell.
The Saved living souls that WERE in Hell are no longer there, so that’s not eternal.
The Unsaved living souls are still there, more being added daily, Yes they experience the torment of separation from Gods peace, joy and comfort.
The spirits of fallen angels, (that can not die), primarily occupy earth, with a few in hell, also suffering torments.
All fallen angels shall be eventually sent to hell, live forever in torments, after the battle between holy and fallen angels.
The Unsaved living souls, shall have the breath of Gods Life, depart the soul, and their body and soul burned, after Judgement....life in neither the soul, or body, and their spirit never born again. They become ash. If lifeless ash suffers torment, new to me a thing without life has feelings.
There is A soul.
Gods Breath in A soul, is that souls life.
Never said Gods Breath, life in the soul is destroyed.
The Life in the Soul, Gods Breath, returns to God.
The LIFELESS soul is destroyed.
Matter never exists and then does not exist, it simply changes form.
Dust of the earth, is formed, that form is called a man, when the man dies, the form returns to dust, it no longer is in the form of a man.
Destroy is a making of what appeared as one thing, change and appear as something else.
The Earth was once Destroyed. Earth IS DRY LAND. Once it was completely covered with WATER, what was DRY, was then not DRY. It was the dryness that was Destroyed, not annihilated.
No doubt, there has been really really long time punishment for unsaved living souls in hell. After judgement, the life in those souls shall return to God, and the body and soul destroyed by fire....and become again as ash and dust of the earth.
You are confusing what I say.
God IS LIFE. His LIFE is without beginning without ending....regardless of what He puts His life in, or removes His life from. The thing Gods puts His life in or removes His life from....is the “thing” that lives or dies.
Gehenna is not the “real hell”.
Gehenna transliterates from Hinnom, a valley outside of Jerusalem, that is where in ancient days, children were sacrificed, burned alive, and the horror of their screams, stench of burning flesh and horrific scene, was an imagination of what Hell would be like.
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