When was the A.O.D fulfilled?

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Phoneman777

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How can one misinterpret: "It is finished"?
Plenty do. Unware Jesus is our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary, yet they presume to teach prophecy.
So explain why death itself had no more power over those souls slain by God under the alter?
You should first properly interpret "souls under the altar" to what this symbolism really means.
They were now in heavenly places as symbolized under that heavenly alter.
"Disembodied souls" have no vocal cords, mouths or lips with which to cry out words - it's symbolism.
The soul dying means it is physically dead, no body, and spiritually dead, no spirit.
"Spiritual death" is by "not being born again" - the spirit departs saved souls at death all the time.
But a literal dead soul is as pointless as calling the soul something the body has.
That's why I define a Soul as Scripture does: a "whole" comprised of two parts: Body and Breath.
You keep saying if the body dies, the soul ceases to exist. No, that is the point the soul is physically dead, without a body. The body does not continue on, but ceases to exist as it turns to dust. The soul is you, and you will either suffer in sheol, or experience Paradise with a physical body.
No one "suffers in sheol" - you first suffer, then pass out of existence when the body is put in sheol and the spirit returns to God. Job's "flesh shall have pain" is talking about flesh decaying to dust.
There is nothing pagan about a soul always existing.
Immortality of the Soul precisely came from paganism. Bible says "God only hath immortality" and only those who "seek for immortality" gain it.
No such thing as an immortal body. You cannot find that in Scripture, but pull that out of the same pagan imagination that told you the soul stops existing.
What do you think "house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens" refers to? The "immortal body" that Paul desperately wnated to be clothed upon so he could have life with which to be present with the Lord.
Luke 9 covers the mount of Transfiguration, but that is not how all accounts portray it. Yes, 3 disciples saw what it means to have the spirit as a covering over the body. So seeing the kingdom of God was showing them proof they would not taste death. You said until they see His glory. No the verse says until they see the kingdom of God. What part of the kingdom of God did they see on the mount of Transfiguration?
Glorified Jesus, glorified Moses, glorified Elijah, the Father's voice calling down to everyone, glory all around. Peter talks about it in his epistle. I'm sure Jesus didn't mean they were going to get a grand tour.
This was not about the mount of Transfiguration
absolutely was.
How can you spin this to mean the mount of Transfiguration?
Since no one standing there lived until the Second Coming, the only solution is the Transfiguration when Jesus and everything appeared as it will be when Jesus comes in His kingdom.
Jesus clearly explains that tasting death, is seeing death, and those who are born from above will never see death.
Never see the second death, He means.
Are you going to accuse these Jews of twisting Jesus' words?
No.
Part of what to expect is never tasting death, because of the second birth.
All of them tasted the "sleep" of death but will not taste the "second" death once they are awakened.
None of these verses give one hint that the soul ever ceases to exist.
"The soul that sinneth, it shall die".

Are you going to believe God Who said death is the opposite of life or the Serpent who said death is the continuation of life?
 

Phoneman777

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Being redeemed and the Cross is not the same as driving to Cracker Barrel after church.

Paul cannot drive himself to heaven, now, can he?

Your anology fails as I pointed out, that you have not provided proof that you have ever driven to heaven in a vehicle.

Jesus said that no one would see death after the Cross who have experienced the second birth. That is way more hope, than expecting an instant lunch at Cracker Barrel.
The manner of transportation is irrelevant! That is not ground to refuse to answer my question, which I'm forced to answer for you:

QUESTION:
If Christian's desire to be absent from the pew and be present at the Cracker Barrel doesn't eliminate the interim period in which he must drive from the one place to the other...

...why would you think Paul's desire to be absent from the body and to be present wtih the Lord eliminates the interim period where we lie naked and unclothed in the grave without a body awaiting an immortal body?

ANSWER:
It doesn't. Paul knew no one is "present with the Lord" while naked because mortality-swallowing "life" comes only by being "clothed upon" in our immortal body.
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Timtofly

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11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb
This is the church coming out of great tribulation over the last 2 millennia.

They have been arriving daily into their permanent incorruptible physical bodies.

The AoD is in Revelation 13 after the 7th Trumpet has already sounded 3.5 days prior.

The final harvest consist of the first 6 Trumpets and the 7 Thunders. That is the time of Jacob's trouble prior to the AoD.
 

Timtofly

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They had already fled in 66 AD.

Jesus did and Luke confirmed Him.

Of course.

Scripture says nothing about where the foolish fled.

It's not. It is permeated with antichrist. The only holy city is the New Jerusalem.
Revelation 21:2
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Jesus did and Luke confirmed Him.

I'll take broken record truth over Darby/Scofield hallucination
all day
every day.
You have a broken record of contradiction and nonsense.

No AoD happened in 66AD. They fled seeing the armies, not an AoD.

Scripture does not say they fled in 66AD. Why do you accept Josephus, and then criticize Josephus when it suits you?

There is not a shred of historical evidence nor Scriptural confirmation that Jesus called any army an AoD. That is merely your broken record imagination at work.

Jesus told them to flee when they saw the Romans in 66AD, as that is what the historical record confirms. No one fled in 70AD, nor was there an AoD in 66AD nor 70AD. The only thing you are consistent on is that you keep blaming Darby or dispensationalists for your vivid imagination.

You are the one who called Jerusalem the holy city, not me. Now you have flip flopped again, and state the New Jerusalem is the holy city. Will there be an AoD in that holy city as well, or are you avoiding your own point? I said Jerusalem was still the holy city, because it still exist on the same spot David built it on. Then you go and change your own subject. Don't you think David's tomb is still there in Jerusalem? Not that, that makes the city holy. You said it stopped being holy when it was not a city. Well guess what? It is still almost the exact same city today, as it was in the first century. Some guy decided to restore it to it's "mint condition", minus a Temple, as only Jesus can build that. When Jesus arrives, He is going to destroy Jerusalem, and leave no stone unturned, and then build His version of Jerusalem, including His glorious throne and Temple. All these points you deny, so you can have your vivid imagination guide you instead of Scripture.

The AoD deals with the desecration in Jerusalem a holy city that is thus desecrated. Can you just admit that you cannot even defend your own imagination that the Roman armies define the AoD?

I have not introduced any thing from your broken record: Darby and Scofield. I am pointing out the historical record of Josephus and how you have your history wrong to prove an imaginary point.
 

Timtofly

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Exactly nonsense. Nothing whatever to do with 2 Thessalonians 2:4.
So this has nothing to do with the Second Coming, but an AoD in 66AD:

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:”

Matthew 24:29

Did that happen in 66AD as well then?

What does the word "immediately mean"? 2 thousand years later?

Personally I interpret Revelation as the sequence us English speaking people would understand in the last generation, as opposed to Matthew 24 written to the Hebrew speaking people of the first century.

Jesus has to destroy the current Jerusalem and set up His own city so Satan can sit on that throne and declare himself God, if God permits such an AoD to take place. Obviously you think God built a grand new city circa 70AD in your vivid imagination of Matthew 24. That is the only way your ancient AoD can even work.

Exactly!

The AOD is apparently connected, for one, with 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and what all that involves, and that 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is not connected with 70 AD.
I agree.
 

Timtofly

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You should first properly interpret "souls under the altar" to what this symbolism really means.
How would you know I don't?

Obviously non existence is not crying out in your interpretation.

They would have to even exist first, which you keep insisting they cannot exist.

Your interpretation is wrong, merely on that point alone.

Then you equate the Holy Spirit as your own spirit, or deny you even have a spirit period. Your spirit is light, not air, nor the Holy Spirit/breath of life. This breath of life is not just mere air. You equated it to electricity. At least your subconscious pointed out there is light produced if you were actually a restored son of God. Now you are just a soul in a dead body, and the only light comes from the Holy Spirit, not your soul that you equate to light. Your spirit is the true light put on over the physical body. That is what Jesus demonstrated on the mount of Transfiguration. There are plenty of Scriptures stating a spirit is an entity separate from God, so not always the Holy Spirit. But a spirit within you is not your spirit. A spirit within you is either a demonic spirit from Satan, or a spirit like in 1 Kings 22:21-23 from God. No one carries around their spirit inside of them because all are spiritually dead, that is separated from their spirit, as they are all around the throne of God, unless they are become demons. 1 Kings 22 explains that. And the story is repeated in 2 Chronicles 18, two witnesses. Not something just made up.

Genesis 2:7 does not say the soul consists of two parts. That is your private interpretation. Genesis 2:7 points out all humans are living souls. Both males and females, not just a single male. That verse applies back to Genesis 1:27

“So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.”

God's image is light. So the spirit is light, because obviously we are not light in our dead state. Jesus had a physical body, so the physical body is in the image of post resurrection Jesus, minus the scars. The soul is the image of the Holy Spirit as not seen, but providing the energy behind all of creation. I have never said the soul has a distinct body. You are the soul inside a body, waiting for the correct body from God, the moment you leave this house of death, and you will put on the robe of white at the opening of the 5th Seal, and patiently wait in Paradise until the NHNE. You are not a combination of God and dust. You are a soul as part of God's image. Your body is not in the image of God, but the image of Adam. Genesis 5:1-3

“This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; .... And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:”

So Seth and all the rest of Adam's descendants were in Adam's dead corruptible image, not God's image, as sons of God. The Cross allowed the physical body restoration, as experienced by Lazarus when Jesus called him out of Abraham's bosom.

That is why Paul stated in 2 Corinthians 5:1 we no longer had to be naked, but clothed upon, because of the Cross. No one would taste death, if born from above, the second birth.

I don't use the word immortal nor immortality of the soul. And you have no proof pagans believed a soul continues after physical death. Yet you continue yourself to describe an immortal body straight from Greek and Roman mythology. The soul could be described as the software in the hardware, as an anology, and that may be somewhat of a current pagan thought, but so is your light bulb anology. Software can be copied in the computer anology, but has no physical properties to prop up your immortal body concept. Immortal means non death. It is easier just to say life. And putting on life has nothing to do with a single part the physical body. Putting on life is the complete restoration as a son of God, so the robe of white is that last thing put on to have that life restored. The physical body is either corruptible or incorruptible. That covers the physical aspect of being a son of God, or not.

There is no issue saying many there that day with Jesus would receive the Holy Spirit and never taste death, but enter Paradise and still be alive at the Second Coming. That is the point. Not that they would be glorified, not that they would live forever in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Jesus did not return the second time on the mount of Transfiguration. He had not even gone to the Cross yet. He was already in a glorified state before He died on the Cross. Jesus is the only human who being born from Adam who will keep the same body that was in the womb. That body never returned to dust. Saying that Moses and Elijah were glorified may be a stretch. Moses also had a face that shown like the sun, after being with God on Mount Sinai. Not proof that he was glorified, but proof he may have been given an incorruptible physical body, that reflected God's light. For Moses to be in God's presence seems to indicate a change that allowed that direct communication with God.

No one in Christ in Paradise are asleep. Did you not understand that Jesus as the Resurrection and the Life woke Lazarus up, never to sleep again? Why would God resurrect all the OT redeemed, just to kill them all over again, to satisfy your belief system? That would make the second death literally your 3rd death.

So we see John using symbolism at the 5th Seal to show those slain as being in the likeness of the Lamb, Himself slain from the foundation of the world. They are not asking for justice on being removed from Adam's dead corruptible flesh. They are looking for vengeance against Satan and death itself. That should be the heart cry off all the redeemed, that groan under the bondage of sin and death. They are past that point, because they have been slain. Not martyred. The word testimony is the word we get martyr from. So the "being slain" part is not a point of martyrdom. Being slain shows the symbolism of lambs on an alter, still under the alter after being slain. The word testimony means they were not afraid of physical death, as that is death being swallowed up by life.

“And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?”

Would this not include the very blood of Jesus shed on the Cross, and all humanity is guilty of that blood, until God ends people being born in Adam's dead corruptible image? These are not martyrs in the sense we call that word, but they were testimonials to the shed blood of Jesus Christ and the removal of the guilt by being slain themselves in like figure as Christ.

Saying these are souls without physical bodies is totally missing the point of the symbolism. The dead flesh returns to dust and needs no redemption. The physical body from God is incorruptible, having no need for redemption. The soul is the only you that received redemption, by being clothed in that house not made of hands. The soul was the only you slain out of a dead state into an eternal life state. John was not implying nor explicitly stating they were without bodies. He was implying in type, Jesus the Lamb slain, onto the entire body of the redeemed church. Then as one they were glorified and told to wait until the rest of humanity was redeemed, slain out of Adam's dead flesh. The 5th Seal is the rapture of the Church, and Paul's glorification event. They are now in robes of white completely restored sons of God, soul, body, and spirit. The robes of white symbolic of the spirit that we have been separated from since conception. Those robes have been waiting for us our entire life. That is what Paul said needed to be kept blameless. The Breath of Life was not those robes. The breath of life was the Holy Spirit giving all sons of God life. We cannot look at this from a state of death. This happened before Adam disobeyed and literally died physically and spiritually. Adam was the soul that began in a physical body, in a robe of white, the spirit. The spirit was not inside the soul. The spirit was a covering over the physical body. But not just Adam singular, there were multiple sons of God created on the 6th day. Adam was the one who brought corruption into the world.
 

Timtofly

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why would you think Paul's desire to be absent from the body and to be present wtih the Lord eliminates the interim period where we lie naked and unclothed in the grave without a body awaiting an immortal body?

ANSWER:
It doesn't. Paul knew no one is "present with the Lord" while naked because mortality-swallowing "life" comes only by being "clothed upon" in our immortal body.
You are so wrong. Paul did know that all the OT were in Paradise. There is no interim period, after the Cross. Lazarus experienced the last time spent waiting, having only 4 days in the valley of the shadow of death. Jesus explained all that in the account you call a parable.

Jesus declared that the thief on the cross next to him would be in Paradise that day. No interim period, period!

Jesus did not ascend into Paradise until 3 days and 3 nights later on Sunday morning. Jesus was the last interim period.

But Jesus had to wait for those 3 days and 3 nights, or otherwise be a liar. He told everyone He would be in the tomb that long. He did preach to the spirits of those from Noah's Flood who were not redeemed by the faith Abraham showed nor lived under the law of Moses. Romans 5:13-15

“For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many."

God punished those offspring sons of God for mixing incorruptible with Adam's corruptible flesh, and becoming as wicked as Adam's offspring. Adam was the type, but until the law came, sin was not imputed. They did not directly disobey God. So we are not told the outcome of that, other than Paul stated that is what Jesus did. So don't try to excuse your erroneous belief, that Paul knew what you claim. Paul knew that you are wrong. Paul visited Paradise, and could not lawfully tell us what went on there. The thief was physically enjoying life not death that day.


And you are lying about what Satan said as well.

“And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.”

All of that was a lie. So why did you add to that another lie:
the Serpent who said death is the continuation of life?

What does that even mean in context of "ye shall not surely die"

I never once posted that death was the continuation of life, because no one from Adam has life, period!

I have stated that physical death is the redemption into eternal life. Because one is no longer in a state of death. Why would I say the state of death is actually life, when I have attempted over and over again to tell you all, Adam did indeed physically die that instant. He went from life to death. Now we are all in a state of death, not life. Did you not understand 1 Corinthians 15 either besides failing to grasp 2 Corinthians 5?

The OT redeemed were made alive the instant they came out of Abraham's bosom in physical bodies. They ascended with Jesus on Sunday morning along with Lazarus. Lazarus was made alive and had a week or two, but could not stay on the earth after being made alive. Not even the sons of God are forced to stay on the earth after the Flood. Why would you think all of them are dead? Many were still alive in Job's day, unless you think Job lived before the Flood? Adam was a son of God, then he literally died, because he disobeyed God. No one seems to accept the point he and Eve physically died. Their soul left one body of life and entered a body of death. Their soul did not die, because death is the soul without a body or spirit. Death is not the soul ceasing to exist. As they were the soul, they kept existing in the body of death.

And we know that many of Adam's offspring later physically died, but where they went was not disclosed. Any thought would be speculation and extra-biblical. But when the Flood came and the sons of God were swallowed soul, body, and spirit into the heart of the earth. They drowned and perished, and were called spirits in prison. How that works is also speculation, other than what is in Scripture.

There are no natural born sons of God on the earth as only Noah and 7 others re-populated the earth in a state of death, not life. God, then said life of a human was in the blood.

“Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.”

So the thought process shifted from having a soul, body, and spirit to life was in the blood. So Job and Solomon had no concept of restored life, but was left with only death, and was forbidden to have any contact with spirits or the spiritual realm. What else could they believe but the dead knew nothing? Elijah was the first time a human come along (after Solomon) with the ability to restore a physically dead person. But that only introduced the concept of a resurrection. Not entire restoration. David was a little less morbid, because he was given a spirit of knowledge about Jesus and life after death.

But you cannot overrule what Jesus taught and who He was as the Resurrection and the Life, by quoting Solomon and Job. Paul said he was in the dark, so Solomon and Job, were further in the dark than Paul was on the topic. Yet, you seem fine thinking they knew more than Paul. Do you not understand that some of Scripture is given as a warning to avoid human speculation and understanding, not run with it and turn human understanding into your doctrine?
 

tailgator

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Nope. The last day Resurrection for the OT, redeemed, in Abraham's bosom, was the Cross.

Those found in sheol are still in the Lamb's book of life. They will be judged after the Millennium.

You do understand that millions of Israelites are still in sheol yet to be redeemed?

The ones who have been redeemed were already resurrected along with Lazarus. God always had a faithful remnant of Abraham's seed, who were in Abraham's bosom, but the vast majority are still in sheol to this very day. Those are the ones who will stand as dead, with millions of Gentiles after the 1,000 year reign. Many will be tossed into the LOF. Some will be redeemed.

Those in Abraham's bosom were already redeemed at the Cross, and ascended to Paradise on Sunday morning as the firstfruits of that heavenly country.

Why would you think, you, yourself will be stuck in Abraham's bosom until the GWT Judgment along with Daniel's people still in sheol?

Daniel saw all the way to the end at the GWT. Daniel did not see the Second Coming, as 1,000 years prior to the GWT event.

The time of Jacob's Great Tribulation is at the Second Coming, not just right before the GWT Judgment.

John pointed out that people were resurrected a thousand years before the end, and clearly stated:

“But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.”

How can you say all come out of the dust at the same time?
No
The man of sin in Daniel 11:45 has not been destroyed at Christs coming as Paul and Daniel prophecy.

Why do you keep insisting Christ has as already come and we have been gathered to him and the man of sin in Daniel 11 has been destroyed?


2 these 2
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God


Daniel 11:36
The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been determined must take place.



Christ has not come and gathered us unto himself ,and killed the man of sin.It has not been fulfilled as you claim.
 

IndianaRob

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No
The man of sin in Daniel 11:45 has not been destroyed at Christs coming as Paul and Daniel prophecy.

Why do you keep insisting Christ has as already come and we have been gathered to him and the man of sin in Daniel 11 has been destroyed?


2 these 2
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God


Daniel 11:36
The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been determined must take place.



Christ has not come and gathered us unto himself ,and killed the man of sin.It has not been fulfilled as you claim.
Christ absolutely has killed the man of sin in all believers.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
 

tailgator

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This is the church coming out of great tribulation over the last 2 millennia.

They have been arriving daily into their permanent incorruptible physical bodies.

The AoD is in Revelation 13 after the 7th Trumpet has already sounded 3.5 days prior.

The final harvest consist of the first 6 Trumpets and the 7 Thunders. That is the time of Jacob's trouble prior to the AoD.
By the way
It is ridiculous for you to claim we are in great tribulation .

There is no great distress with perplexity as of now. The heavens are not shaking and there are no great earthquakes caused by nation rising against nation.
It is quite peaceful except for the sound of my dishwasher.

Luke 21
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
 

tailgator

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Christ absolutely has killed the man of sin in all believers.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
You believe Christ killed the king of the north?

Daniel 11:36
The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been determined must take place.


When are you saying Christ killed this man?
 

IndianaRob

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You believe Christ killed the king of the north?

Daniel 11:36
The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been determined must take place.


When are you saying Christ killed this man?
I’m saying the man in Daniel 11:36 has nothing to do with the man of sin. The man of sin sits in the temple of God. We are the temple of God ever since the cross.

In order for the man of sin to be a literal person, that person would have to sit in the literal temple of God PRIOR to the cross.
 

tailgator

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I’m saying the man in Daniel 11:36 has nothing to do with the man of sin. The man of sin sits in the temple of God. We are the temple of God ever since the cross.

In order for the man of sin to be a literal person, that person would have to sit in the literal temple of God PRIOR to the cross.
The man of sin in Daniel 11:36 is the man who's armed forces set up the abomination that causes desolation in the book of Daniel.

In order for the man of sin to be a literal person, he only needs to be a man ,which he is.


Paul is literally talking about the vile man I Daniel 11:36 who will be destroyed at Christs coming.

Daniel 11:36
The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been determined must take place.

2 Thes 2
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.





You claim this has already been fulfilled.According to Paul ,We will not be gathered together to Christ at his coming till this man of sin is revealed.


What year are you claiming Paul was gathered to Christ at his coming?

2 thes 2
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
 

covenantee

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You have a broken record of contradiction and nonsense.
A broken record of truth is music to my ears, compared to an unbroken record of fantasy, fallacy, folly, and futility. :laughing:

No AoD happened in 66AD. They fled seeing the armies, not an AoD.
They fled upon seeing the abomination of desolation that Jesus had prophesied through Matthew and Luke.

Scripture does not say they fled in 66AD.
Scripture warned them to flee. History says they did in 66 AD.

Why do you accept Josephus, and then criticize Josephus when it suits you?
Josephus et al are recognized historians. You aren't. :laughing:

There is not a shred of historical evidence nor Scriptural confirmation that Jesus called any army an AoD.
For anyone who can read, He did in Matthew 24:15 and Luke confirms it in Luke 21:20.

No one fled in 70AD, nor was there an AoD in 66AD nor 70AD.
The Judaean Christians in 66 AD fled from the abomination of desolation of the Roman armies. Matthew 24:15-16; Luke 21:20-21

You are the one who called Jerusalem the holy city, not me.

I said Jerusalem was still the holy city
Thanks for the guffaws. :laughing:

Now you have flip flopped again, and state the New Jerusalem is the holy city.
Scripture states it. Revelation 21:2.

You are the one who called Jerusalem the holy city, not me.
Scripture calls it. Revelation 21:2.

I said Jerusalem was still the holy city
You don't know what you said. :laughing:

I have not introduced any thing from your broken record: Darby and Scofield
You've spouted nothing but Darby/Scofield and your own private embellishments. :laughing:
 

IndianaRob

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The man of sin in Daniel 11:36 is the man who's armed forces set up the abomination that causes desolation in the book of Daniel.

In order for the man of sin to be a literal person, he only needs to be a man ,which he is.


Paul is literally talking about the vile man I Daniel 11:36 who will be destroyed at Christs coming.

Daniel 11:36
The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been determined must take place.

2 Thes 2
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.





You claim this has already been fulfilled.According to Paul ,We will not be gathered together to Christ at his coming till this man of sin is revealed.


What year are you claiming Paul was gathered to Christ at his coming?

2 thes 2
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
I definitely understand where you're coming from but let's unpack that passage starting with what we know is not debatable.

The man of sin sits in the temple of God and we know that the temple of God after the cross is our bodies. Do you agree with this?
 

IndianaRob

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Have any of you guys ever noticed that after the resurrection of Christ the literal temple of God is never again called the temple of God throughout the entire New Testament?

In every case where the literal temple of God is mentioned it is always referred to as the temple and never the temple of God.

Update to add - the only place where the temple of God is not directly defined as the body of the believer is 2 Thessalonians 2.
 
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Davidpt

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Have any of you guys ever noticed that after the resurrection of Christ the literal temple of God is never again called the temple of God throughout the entire New Testament?

In every case where the literal temple of God is mentioned it is always referred to as the temple and never the temple of God.

Update to add - the only place where the temple of God is not directly defined as the body of the believer is 2 Thessalonians 2.

You and I would basically be on the same page here. That aside. The holy place mentioned in Matthew 24:15, what do you take that to be meaning and involving?
 

IndianaRob

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You and I would basically be on the same page here. That aside. The holy place mentioned in Matthew 24:15, what do you take that to be meaning and involving?
I have no doubts that the abomination of desolation was the Jews murdering Christ. The holy place in Matthew was the cross, the holy place in the temple of God in the Old Testament was always pointing to the cross… the place where the true Lamb of God would stand and shed his blood.
 

Davidpt

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I have no doubts that the abomination of desolation was the Jews murdering Christ. The holy place in Matthew was the cross, the holy place in the temple of God in the Old Testament was always pointing to the cross… the place where the true Lamb of God would stand and shed his blood.

That makes sense how, in light of the following?

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Why is it that you tend to interpret things without first considering the details involved? For one, how did great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be, begin at the time of the cross? And what about these other verses, such as verses 16-20, which is something one is to do when they see the AOD stand in the holy place, they are to flee into the mountains, etc? What does any of that have to do with the time of the cross?