When were you created

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before or at conception


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BARNEY BRIGHT

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The story of Lazarus and the rich man that Jesus told is in Scripture alignment with everything His Word says regarding one's soul continuing to live after the flesh body dies, a la Matthew 10:28.

But the Pharisees' idea is that the 'soul' is only a product of 'breath' and flesh coming together to make a live human flesh body walking and talking on earth. But of course the Canaanites who crept in among those Pharisees long ago would think the soul dies when the flesh dies, because they won't believe God's Word, they'd rather make up their own traditions. No wonder Jesus of Nazareth rebuked them.

To My Brethren in Christ Jesus:

Do you notice how those on the Pharisees' traditions steer away from what Jesus revealed in the Matthew 10:28 Scripture about the soul not being killed at flesh death? Notice how they like to steer around that verse as much as possible. It's really funny I think, because don't they know by doing that they tell on themselves on how they are actually against God's Word on this matter?

Like I said the Bible doesn't say you have a soul it says you are a soul. You can disbelieve that as much as you want, but the scriptures will continue to say you're a soul not that you have one.

What I see about Matthew 10:28 is that Jesus is saying when someone kills you, they can't do anything else to you after killing you, but God has the ability for that death to be a permanent death for eternity. Mankind can't do that.
 

Davy

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Like I said the Bible doesn't say you have a soul it says you are a soul. You can disbelieve that as much as you want, but the scriptures will continue to say you're a soul not that you have one.

What I see about Matthew 10:28 is that Jesus is saying when someone kills you, they can't do anything else to you after killing you, but God has the ability for that death to be a permanent death for eternity. Mankind can't do that.

That's exactly my point earlier, you REFUSE to heed what my Lord Jesus Himself taught us in His Word, particularly the Matthew 10:28 Scripture:

Matt 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

KJV

That "but are not able to kill the soul" is a DIRECT STATEMENT. It's not up for let's throw the dice and pick what it might mean.
 
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Davy

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Brethren, beware of the occult paganism of the Canaanites. They have some very ancient teachings that are still around today, and they go against God's Word.

One of their beliefs about death is that our 'spirit' while in our flesh body is like a drop of water separated from the Great Ocean (their label, not mine). While in a flesh body it manifests as an individual, having all the awareness and consciousness of its self. Then at death that drop of water goes back into the Great Ocean and no longer has any individual conscious existence. It becomes "one with the Cosmic" they might say. As a matter of fact, they teach the idea of becoming 'one' with the universe, or cosmic, a lot, even while alive in a flesh body (definitely an eastern religious idea from ancient Sumer, the earliest seat of idol Baal devil worship on earth).

How is that belief of the old Canaanites very much like the false belief some today have with thinking our spirit/soul dies with our flesh body at flesh death? It is the same... idea. If our spirit dissolves back into the Great Ocean at flesh death, then one might as well say we are gone, no more individual existence.

Early on in God's Word, in Eccl.12:5-7, we are shown what happens at flesh death. A "silver cord" is severed and our flesh goes back to the earthly elements where it came from. But our 'spirit' goes back to God Who gave it. What do you think those Canaanites think that 'spirit' is? They think it is just some animating principle that all living things have, even plants and animals. In other words, 'you' literally no longer exist at flesh death, that is what they believe, and that... is their idea I mentioned before about the individual being like a drop of water out of the Great Ocean while alive in a flesh body, but is dissolved back into the Great Ocean at death of the flesh. Yet that is NOT what God's Word reveals what happens, thankfully. That may be what Satan wants God's people to believe, simply because Satan already knows he is destined to perish and be no more, but that is not what our Heavenly Father and His Son want us to believe, and His Word shows us.

Even with this Scripture they cannot see that the 'soul' is a separate existing thing apart from flesh, even after flesh death:

Acts 2:30-31
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that His soul was not left in hell, neither His flesh did see corruption.

KJV

The word "hell" there is Greek haides, put for the place of the dead in that other dimension that exists behind a veil, i.e., the heavenly dimension. It uses that word because that's the only concept in the Greek language that existed to explain the idea of an underworld of the dead in the heavenly dimension.

In 1 Peter 3 we are told Jesus at His resurrection went to that place, and preached to the "spirits in prison". The Isaiah 42:7 prophecy was that He would lead out prisoners from the prison house, which is about Satan's pit prison in haides.

The idea that Jesus' flesh body would not see corruption means it would not be left in the tomb to decay.

So right there in Acts 2 we are given 2 separate concepts about flesh death, even using our Lord Jesus' resurrection as an example with the difference that His flesh body was not allowed to decay in a hole in the ground (or tomb if you like), whereas, our flesh body will be subject to decay when our flesh body dies. The operation His 'soul' was subject to is shown as a totally different working than a flesh body.

Even Apostle Paul let it slip just a little as to what is actually saved in the future world to come...

1 Cor 5:4-5
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

KJV

Paul was rebuking those at Corinth because they had allowed one to dwell among them that was having sexual intercourse with his mother. So Paul gave a judgment to that one. That "spirit" is Greek pneuma (current of air; the rational soul - no.4154). That "day of the Lord Jesus" is another title for the "day of the Lord", which begins with the day of Jesus' return and continues for a thousand years per Revelation 20. What that is showing is individual existence apart... from the flesh, and more importantly, just what it is that is saved by our Lord Jesus unto eternal Life, i.e., our spirit/soul, not our flesh.
 
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n2thelight

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Angels are sons of God and they are also the morning stars. These Angels were already created and in existence long before God created the physical universe. So these morning stars were there when God created not only the universe which included the Earth but also when God created mankind.

My point is ,we are ALL sons of God we were ALL with Him when He created the universe!!!That's who we were(ARE)before He created this earth.In other words mankind came from those angels,ie,flesh man...

God even did it Himself,took on flesh
 

n2thelight

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If you and others like you want to continue believing that you have a soul instead of believing what the scriptures say that you are a soul that is your right

Yes I agree completely,we are a soul,however we were born of woman,ie,flesh

I Corinthians 15:35 "But some man will say, "How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?"

Paul is now going to tell us what happens and we bury them in the ground. Pay attention so that you will understand and there will be no confusion. So if you believe in the resurrection, than how does it happen? Where does it take place, and with what body does the dead rise?

I Corinthians 15:36 "Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:"

It is important to understand the word "quickened", Remember in verse 22 Paul stated; "in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive." This Greek word for "quickened" is the same Greek word for the "coming alive". It means that all, sinners and saints are made alive through Christ. It doesn't mean that the soul is raised to eternal life, for the soul is not the subject here, but the question is what happens to the physical body?

It means to "revitalize" [# 2227 in Strong's] the soul, and become conscience and ready for judgment. This doesn't mean that all souls are saved, but that all souls are given life to continue as they were. If that soul was lost, it will still be lost, but the final death will not take place until after this age of the flesh is over, after the Millennium age, and the Great white throne judgment is finish. Then will be the time of the "second death" or the death of the lost souls. It means that the soul has put off the flesh body, and put on their spiritual body, but their soul is still condemned to death if it is not in right standing with God.


I Corinthians 15:44
"It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

There is a natural body, which is your flesh body, and there is also a spiritual or soul body. The two are different and when the natural body, or flesh body dies the spiritual body is "raised", or in the Greek text "egiro, awakened, become active from its death". You have two bodies, one natural body contains your spiritual body, and that spiritual body is awakened to a new life, when the flesh or natural body dies and releases your soul. Your spirit and your soul are together, for the spirit is your "self", "the intellect of your soul" which houses your spirit within you.

Your spirit never leaves your soul, even at the death of your flesh body. Satan does not have any power over your spiritual body, but only your flesh body. Man and Satan can tare this flesh body to peaces and cause you to do all sorts of things, but no-one can damage your soul, not man, not Satan nor the angels. God is the only one that can destroy the soul and that comes at the end of the Millennium age, following judgment. However through deception Satan can cause you to sin against God, and thus be in trouble before the Almighty God. But that is why we have repentance in the name of Jesus to become right-standing before the Father again.

It just can't be made any clearer than Paul has made it here. You have two bodies, the flesh and the spiritual bodies. When the flesh body dies, then the spiritual body is awakened and come alive within itself. It starts to live a life without the baggage of the flesh body confining it to the limits of the flesh.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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My point is ,we are ALL sons of God we were ALL with Him when He created the universe!!!That's who we were(ARE)before He created this earth.In other words mankind came from those angels,ie,flesh man...

God even did it Himself,took on flesh

I disagree we were all with God when he created the universe. I believe the scriptures show us that before God created Adam from the dust Adam didn't exist. So no, we were not with God when he created the Earth. The Angels existed yes, but we didn't come from the Angels. I don't believe it was God who became flesh either, it was his Only Begotten Son who became flesh, who died for us and that God resurrected three days after his Son death. Everything that the Apostle John wrote in his gospel was to teach us that Jesus is the Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God, not God.John 20:30,31

So many people today don't believe it is God Only Begotten Son who is the Word and therefore it was the Only Begotten Son who was with God in the Beginning as John tells us in his gospel.
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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Yes I agree completely,we are a soul,however we were born of woman,ie,flesh

I Corinthians 15:35 "But some man will say, "How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?"

Paul is now going to tell us what happens and we bury them in the ground. Pay attention so that you will understand and there will be no confusion. So if you believe in the resurrection, than how does it happen? Where does it take place, and with what body does the dead rise?

I Corinthians 15:36 "Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:"

It is important to understand the word "quickened", Remember in verse 22 Paul stated; "in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive." This Greek word for "quickened" is the same Greek word for the "coming alive". It means that all, sinners and saints are made alive through Christ. It doesn't mean that the soul is raised to eternal life, for the soul is not the subject here, but the question is what happens to the physical body?

It means to "revitalize" [# 2227 in Strong's] the soul, and become conscience and ready for judgment. This doesn't mean that all souls are saved, but that all souls are given life to continue as they were. If that soul was lost, it will still be lost, but the final death will not take place until after this age of the flesh is over, after the Millennium age, and the Great white throne judgment is finish. Then will be the time of the "second death" or the death of the lost souls. It means that the soul has put off the flesh body, and put on their spiritual body, but their soul is still condemned to death if it is not in right standing with God.


I Corinthians 15:44
"It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

There is a natural body, which is your flesh body, and there is also a spiritual or soul body. The two are different and when the natural body, or flesh body dies the spiritual body is "raised", or in the Greek text "egiro, awakened, become active from its death". You have two bodies, one natural body contains your spiritual body, and that spiritual body is awakened to a new life, when the flesh or natural body dies and releases your soul. Your spirit and your soul are together, for the spirit is your "self", "the intellect of your soul" which houses your spirit within you.

Your spirit never leaves your soul, even at the death of your flesh body. Satan does not have any power over your spiritual body, but only your flesh body. Man and Satan can tare this flesh body to peaces and cause you to do all sorts of things, but no-one can damage your soul, not man, not Satan nor the angels. God is the only one that can destroy the soul and that comes at the end of the Millennium age, following judgment. However through deception Satan can cause you to sin against God, and thus be in trouble before the Almighty God. But that is why we have repentance in the name of Jesus to become right-standing before the Father again.

It just can't be made any clearer than Paul has made it here. You have two bodies, the flesh and the spiritual bodies. When the flesh body dies, then the spiritual body is awakened and come alive within itself. It starts to live a life without the baggage of the flesh body confining it to the limits of the flesh.

No, they're not awakened, but instead changed, from flesh to spiritual. I believe what you're talking about is those who will be resurrected and be in heaven with Jesus ruling as kings, priests and judges with Jesus in that Messianic kingdom. They will get a resurrection like Jesus who when resurrected was resurrected immortal and inherited incorruption. Jesus was changed from mortal to immortal. Those who have a resurrection like Jesus are changed from mortal to immortal. They don't have immortality already before they died because if they did they couldn't die. I believe the scriptures say the spirit in humans is the same spirit animals have.

In the Bible the words translated “spirit” (Hebrew, ruʹach; Greek, pneuʹma) basically mean “breath.” Thus, instead of “his spirit goes out,” the translation by R. A. Knox uses the phrase “the breath leaves his body.” (Psalm 145:4) But the word “spirit” implies much more than the act of breathing. For example, in describing the destruction of human and animal life at the time of the global Deluge, Genesis 7:22 says: “Everything in which the breath of the force [or, spirit; Hebrew, ruʹach] of life was active in its nostrils, namely, all that were on the dry ground, died.” So “spirit” may refer to the life-force that is active in all living creatures, both humans and animals, and that is sustained by breathing. So I don't believe the scriptures are saying we have a spiritual body in us.