When were you created

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before or at conception


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Davy

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I have looked it up and it does not suggest that it was in a good condition as the words used to interpret tohu are lie waste, a desolation, desert, worthless thing, confusion, empty place, nothing, naught, vain, waste, wilderness. If all that means it was in a good condition, I will have to throw out all my dictionaries and get new ones.

You are terribly mistaken. These are some of the verse that use that Hebrew tohuw, and is about something that goes into a bad condition. Obviously, one MUST pay attention to the context of the verse with how tohuw is used, and not just note how tohuw is translated there.

Isa 29:21
21 That make a man an offender for a word, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of nought.
KJV

Job 12:24
24 He taketh away the heart of the chief of the people of the earth, and causeth them to wander in a wilderness where there is no way.
KJV

Job 6:18
18 The paths of their way are turned aside; they go to nothing, and perish.
KJV

1 Sam 12:21
21 And turn ye not aside: for then should ye go after vain things, which cannot profit nor deliver; for they are vain.
KJV
 

marksman

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You are terribly mistaken. These are some of the verse that use that Hebrew tohuw, and is about something that goes into a bad condition. Obviously, one MUST pay attention to the context of the verse with how tohuw is used, and not just note how tohuw is translated there.

Isa 29:21
21 That make a man an offender for a word, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of nought.
KJV

Job 12:24
24 He taketh away the heart of the chief of the people of the earth, and causeth them to wander in a wilderness where there is no way.
KJV

Job 6:18
18 The paths of their way are turned aside; they go to nothing, and perish.
KJV

1 Sam 12:21
21 And turn ye not aside: for then should ye go after vain things, which cannot profit nor deliver; for they are vain.
KJV
That's all right. I am happy to be terribly mistaken and keep teaching the truth.
 

Naomi25

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The scriptures inform us that the real biblical comfort comes from the resurrection.
The resurrection is, of course, our ultimate comfort and hope. That's why Paul calls it the 'blessed hope'...Christ's return and our bodily resurrection. However, for those who die long before that time (as we cannot know when that will be), Paul also speaks to, and it's a message of comfort. Why would Paul say either of these things, if not believing them to be a comforting truth?

For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account. -Philippians 1:21–24

So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. -2 Corinthians 5:6–9


If Paul believed that, when he died, he were to 'sleep' until the resurrection...then he would not 'be with Christ' or be 'at home with the Lord'. He would not gain comfort from the belief of both those things. He may get comfort of the ultimate thought of the end times 'awakening' to new life...but we have that now in life. Paul is clearly speaking of something better than now, in death.

Removing a false belief that provides fake comfort should be practiced more earnestly. Promoting the idea one goes directly to heaven upon death denies more scriptures than there are that support the idea.

KJV Psalms 6
5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

KJV Ecclesiastes 9
10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

KJV Isaiah 38
18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
19 The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.
Hmmm....I feel like maybe we've done this before, some time ago. But okay....
Your verses from Psalms, Ecclesiastes, and Isaiah are somewhat poetic musings on the fact that death is final. Death leaves no option to beg for God's good grace. It leaves no chances to live with your loved ones. It leaves no chances to live a better life. That's just it; you're done. Like a mist, a vapor, you're gone and judgement will be past on what your life was.

Jesus did not go anywhere while in the tomb.
After the resurrection Jesus said to Mary,
KJV John 20
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Okay....a few thoughts here. The first would be this:

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. -1 Peter 3:18–20

There are a few different interpretations to what this passage could mean, but the two most agreed upon still state that Christ's spirit was active after his crucifixion.
Another passage to consider is this:

The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. -Luke 16:22–23

This 'parable' that Christ told was remarkable in that no other parable he told ever gave the people names. In this parable we see two different men dying and their souls going to Abraham's side and Hades. Abraham's side is a place of contentment, comfort and 'good things', while Hades is a place of torment. There is a great chasm between the two, but apparently they can see each other and even interact.
Many scholars have speculated that before Christ's resurrection, Abraham's 'bosom', as they call it, was were OT 'Saints' went after death. Hades is where those awaiting final judgement go. And that when Christ went to 'preach' to the spirits, it could well have been here, announcing his victory over sin and death, opening the way to heaven.
Now...I obviously recognize that these are just scholarly speculations. But, I think we need to ask ourselves two questions: why would Jesus give us a parable that centers around a great untruth...that people have no awareness after death. And, we also need to ask ourselves who he went and preached to.
As far as the verse you gave, I don't think it discounts Christ's spirit moving any place at all, it just tells us that he didn't wish a woman to touch his resurrected form before he ascended back to the Father. This was, remember, after he ascended. So it says nothing, really, about what his spirit was doing, or if he had seen his Father in spirit form or not.

The thief may not have even died the day Jesus did. The Romans broke their legs not to kill them, but to stop them from running away... As they couldn't remain on the cross on the Sabbath.
To stop them from running away? I'm sorry, but...how much do you know about the crucifixion process? The breaking of the legs was not to 'stop them running away', but to stop them from pushing themselves up so they could get a lungful of air. When a person hangs from their arms like that, they cannot get a lungful of air. They had to push themselves up by their legs, get a breath, then drop down to exhale. And do it again and again just to breath. Keeping in mind that these men had endured a flogging beforehand. Imagine rubbing a raw back up and down a splintery cross all afternoon. Not to mention they were nailed there. I cannot imagine a thief simply hoping down and running off.
But, that's beside the point. Broken legs meant no breathing. The thief would have died shortly afterwards. You can look it up in a medical journal.

"I promise you right now, this very day, that you will be with Me in Paradise." Do we not speak in such a fashion as a form of strong reassurance? "Truly truly I tell you today, I promise as I live before you now, you will live again". The resurrection was and is the Christian hope. Paul never promoted the concept of immediate transfer into heaven. He promoted and taught the resurrection. And so did Jesus.

I'm sorry, but all of that? Baloney. When you make such an outright statement like that, you'd better mean it, or your word becomes suspect. You know how I know that? I have kids. With kids you learn to voice things in more of a "I'll do my very best to make this happen"...because sometimes things just are beyond your reach, you know? But on the times you tell them, "today, this WILL happen" and you don't follow through, all hexx brakes loose.
So, I ask you...if the God of all creation promises someone "TODAY you WILL be in paradise with me"....you truly think he's just trying to be upbeat? Come on.
 

Reggie Belafonte

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Questions, when babies die how old are they when they get to Heaven?
They don't go to Heaven, not many % of people will go to Heaven anyway.
All who do not deserve Hell must go to Purgatory, Moses was their until Jesus came for him and the OT Saints .

I do not think that Heaven is what most people claim it to be.
 

n2thelight

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They don't go to Heaven, not many % of people will go to Heaven anyway.
All who do not deserve Hell must go to Purgatory, Moses was their until Jesus came for him and the OT Saints .

I do not think that Heaven is what most people claim it to be.

What is purgatory and where is that in scripture?From what I read all go to Heaven at death.Also from what I read there's only two choices,Heaven or hell,however no one goes to hell,mind you,I equate hell with the lake of fire,and can't nobody go there until after the great white throne ,however they are on the other side of the gulf,as scripture says as well...

A baby that dies is innocent,so why would they need this purgatory?And please explain what purgatory is,ty...
 
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brakelite

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Hmmm....I feel like maybe we've done this before, some time ago. But okay....
Your verses from Psalms, Ecclesiastes, and Isaiah are somewhat poetic musings on the fact that death is final. Death leaves no option to beg for God's good grace. It leaves no chances to live with your loved ones. It leaves no chances to live a better life. That's just it; you're done. Like a mist, a vapor, you're gone and judgement will be past on what your life was.
So the prophets, and you, agree with the speaker... Ye shall not surely die.
Just poetic musings.
 

Reggie Belafonte

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What is purgatory and where is that in scripture?From what I read all go to Heaven at death.Also from what I read there's only two choices,Heaven or hell,however no one goes to hell,mind you,I equate hell with the lake of fire,and can't nobody go there until after the great white throne ,however they are on the other side of the gulf,as scripture says as well...

A baby that dies is innocent,so why would they need this purgatory?And please explain what purgatory is,ty...
Because that when Jesus was killed where did he go for 3 days, the story of the big fish we call a whale now, it's all in their.
If Jesus came for Moses where was Moses ?

If one is a Devil then the deserve Hell, because they reap what they have sown for one as they in free will chose to do wrong and oppose God so they are condemned for ever.

If one is lead astray by the worldly but is not a evil person that is clearly going about with no intention on others in doing no ill will and never wilful cursing people with such games at play, do they deserve Hell ? it maybe Purgatory for such.

As to a baby or young child they can't go to Hell or Heaven, so it has to be Purgatory.

I am of the opinion that Purgatory is what the RCC states that it is. but not that I support all the dribble that protestants may claim about the stupid things that the RCC had did in regards to such things in history, they were clearly wrong and the RCC has pointed such out many years ago. many prots rant and rave with anything they can, such ranting gets so boring to me, as they are just flogging a dead horse. as the RCC moved on from that. All is fine with me as to the pointing out the history of such, but they have repented of such and when did they last peddling such.

The thing is that no one can get into the Kingdom of God unless you are truly born again of the Holy Spirit and then such a one is worthy of Heaven and then the water baptised are in Purgatory when they die until the day of the end of times.

In Purgatory you will pay for your Sins to the last cent. as to a baby they are asleep till the day of the end of times.

To say their is only Heaven and Hell, this can come across as childishness to me as such is a fake concept in many ways when one looks into what the person is truly saying. such simplistic notions are abound and I have come across such that claim that they are going to Heaven ? no one can make such a claim as that is totally only up to Jesus, he will make that call in fact, not us because such is just a boast ! sure you can talk about your hope and convictions as to why you serve the Lord Jesus, that's fine. but not to boast of going to Heaven as some i have seen do. as if it's of their will, that's all they are coming from is of their own will, but your own will does not cut it at all.

On the other hand other people do claim only Heaven and Hell and I am fine with that, but do all who do not deserve Hell go to Hell for not knowing Jesus is the Christ and do all the ones who are not knowing of Christ have to go to Hell. I think such could be a harsh call to make.
 

Reggie Belafonte

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Now Holy Moses, John the Baptist and all the OT Prophets of God went some where ? they did not go to Hell, clearly.
 

Keraz

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Now Holy Moses, John the Baptist and all the OT Prophets of God went some where ? they did not go to Hell, clearly.
They died and now 'sleep' in the grave, awaiting the GWT Judgment. Revelation 20:11-15, like everyone else. Daniel 12:13, Acts 13:36

No one, including babies; goes anywhere at death. All await the final Judgment, when the Book of Life will be opened.
Those who were too young or had never heard the Gospel, will be judged then, according to their actions of lack of action while alive. Romans 1:20-32, Matthew 25:31-46
But all whose names are written in the Book of Life, will automatically receive Eternal life. Malachi 3:16-17
Which will include some who are alive at the end of the Millennium. 1 Corinthians 15:50-56
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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Because that when Jesus was killed where did he go for 3 days, the story of the big fish we call a whale now, it's all in their.
If Jesus came for Moses where was Moses ?

If one is a Devil then the deserve Hell, because they reap what they have sown for one as they in free will chose to do wrong and oppose God so they are condemned for ever.

If one is lead astray by the worldly but is not a evil person that is clearly going about with no intention on others in doing no ill will and never wilful cursing people with such games at play, do they deserve Hell ? it maybe Purgatory for such.

As to a baby or young child they can't go to Hell or Heaven, so it has to be Purgatory.

I am of the opinion that Purgatory is what the RCC states that it is. but not that I support all the dribble that protestants may claim about the stupid things that the RCC had did in regards to such things in history, they were clearly wrong and the RCC has pointed such out many years ago. many prots rant and rave with anything they can, such ranting gets so boring to me, as they are just flogging a dead horse. as the RCC moved on from that. All is fine with me as to the pointing out the history of such, but they have repented of such and when did they last peddling such.

The thing is that no one can get into the Kingdom of God unless you are truly born again of the Holy Spirit and then such a one is worthy of Heaven and then the water baptised are in Purgatory when they die until the day of the end of times.

In Purgatory you will pay for your Sins to the last cent. as to a baby they are asleep till the day of the end of times.

To say their is only Heaven and Hell, this can come across as childishness to me as such is a fake concept in many ways when one looks into what the person is truly saying. such simplistic notions are abound and I have come across such that claim that they are going to Heaven ? no one can make such a claim as that is totally only up to Jesus, he will make that call in fact, not us because such is just a boast ! sure you can talk about your hope and convictions as to why you serve the Lord Jesus, that's fine. but not to boast of going to Heaven as some i have seen do. as if it's of their will, that's all they are coming from is of their own will, but your own will does not cut it at all.

On the other hand other people do claim only Heaven and Hell and I am fine with that, but do all who do not deserve Hell go to Hell for not knowing Jesus is the Christ and do all the ones who are not knowing of Christ have to go to Hell. I think such could be a harsh call to make.


I have found no scriptures speaking of purgatory. The scriptures say that the dead whether they're righteous or unrighteous will be resurrected from hell. You just have to understand that the word "Hell" translates the Greek word "Hades" and Hades translates the Hebrew word Sheol. Sheol was simply a word to be used when talking about the place of the dead of righteous and unrighteous mankind. So whatever word you want to use, "Hell, Hades, or Sheol you're speaking of the same place.
 

Naomi25

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So the prophets, and you, agree with the speaker... Ye shall not surely die.
Just poetic musings.

Of course we die. I've never said we don't die, and I don't appreciate the implication that I did, or that was in any way what I meant. If, however, we were to 'die' in the sense you speak of...in the sense that "all" of our being is dead; then that which is "us" is also 'dead'. For our memories, thoughts, loves, joys, to continue on into the next life, a part of us must, in some way, continue after the body goes into the grave. For this to happen, we are looking at two possibilities: life in the spirit after death. Or soul sleep. For the reasons I provided earlier, I say the former. You, however, seem to equate this with siding with Satan. You find it easier to say 'seeing those verses as "poetic" descriptions of the afterlife is in line with the great lie of Satan'....than the idea that Jesus was pulling a swifty on the man dying next to him. Food for thought, don't you think? Especially considering the fact that Jesus was clearly THE most articulate and eloquent speaker in the history of the world. Nothing ever got past him, ran circles around him, or was expressed in a manner that did not mean exactly what he intended to say. If he told the thief he'd be in paradise that day, he was jolly well going to be in paradise that day. Anything less is unacceptable, because it either imagines Christ was lying, stretching the truth, didn't know what he was talking about or just hoping really hard for a better ending to a crappy day. None of that points to divinity hanging on a cross.

One last thought on it all. If, when people die, they experience nothing...no time, no sensation, no emotion...why then, in Revelation, are we told of people under the alter of God, asking him:
“O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been. -Revelation 6:10–11

We see here that they are, 1)waiting. 2)aware they're waiting, 3)aware judgement has not yet taken place for the injustices taking place on the earth, and 4) told to wait a little longer.
 

Davy

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The word resurrection means standing up from death or rising from the dead. So basically you're being resurrected back to life. However you're saying the scriptures say that we continue living because you say the scriptures say that we have something that thinks, feels, believes and separates at death and goes somewhere like paradise. Death is the opposite of life. Death= no thinking, no feelings, no believing because you have no consciousness. Life= you do feel, think and believe because you do have consciousness.

In Matthew 10:28 and Luke 12:4-5 our Lord Jesus revealed that our soul continues after flesh death. In Luke 16 He gave the example of Lazarus and the rich man who both died and the angels carried them to Paradise, where the rich man was in hell and saw Abraham across a great gulf and spoke to him. I've heard every kind of b.s. thrown at that story which Lord Jesus told showing what happens at flesh death, the soothsayers preaching against it because they'd rather believe like the atheists that when we die there is nothing. The 'dead in the ground' theory folks abuse the Eccl.9 passages about the dead when they don't really read what that Scripture actually says!
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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In Matthew 10:28 and Luke 12:4-5 our Lord Jesus revealed that our soul continues after flesh death. In Luke 16 He gave the example of Lazarus and the rich man who both died and the angels carried them to Paradise, where the rich man was in hell and saw Abraham across a great gulf and spoke to him. I've heard every kind of b.s. thrown at that story which Lord Jesus told showing what happens at flesh death, the soothsayers preaching against it because they'd rather believe like the atheists that when we die there is nothing. The 'dead in the ground' theory folks abuse the Eccl.9 passages about the dead when they don't really read what that Scripture actually says!

GEHENNA, or the Valley of Hinnom, is mentioned twelve times in the Christian Greek Scriptures. In the days of Jesus Christ on earth it was a fiery place and, being a valley outside the walls of Jerusalem, it was on earth. It became a symbol of the worst punishment that could befall a person. For instance, in Matthew 5:22, In his Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said: “Everyone who continues wrathful with his brother will be accountable to the court of justice; but whoever addresses his brother with an unspeakable word of contempt [Raca] will be accountable to the Supreme Court; whereas whoever says, ‘You despicable fool!’ will be liable to the fiery Gehenna.”(not Hell) Thus Jesus grades the “fiery Gehenna” as third and worst. Why? Because the one who called another a despicable fool and who was sentenced to the fiery Gehenna is put to death and not given a burial. His corpse is burned up in the fires of Gehenna and the ashes are never collected for preserving in an urn. So he was pictured as not going to Haʹdes.(Hell)

A few verses later on in the same Sermon on the Mount Jesus shows that the sinner’s corpse is thrown into Gehenna as a crematory. In Matthew 5:29, 30 Jesus says:
“If, now, that right eye of yours is making you stumble, tear it out and throw it away from you. For it is more beneficial to you for one of your members to be lost to you than for your whole body to be pitched into Gehenna. Also, if your right hand is making you stumble, cut it off and throw it away from you [not, torment it]. For it is more beneficial for one of your members to be lost to you than for your whole body to land in Gehenna.”
From this language we see that Jesus used in a symbolical manner the ancient Gehenna that was located outside the walls of Jerusalem. Jesus did not mean that his followers should pluck out a literal eye or chop off a literal right hand. Rather, Jesus was talking about something precious that causes us to sin with the right eye or the right hand. Accordingly, then, as the eye and right hand were spoken of symbolically, Gehenna must also have been spoken of in a symbolical way, not literally.
Notice how Jesus contrasts one’s being thrown into Gehenna with one’s entering into life. This indicates that the symbolical Gehenna is a place of no life at all. In Matthew 18:8, 9 Jesus said: “If, then, your hand or your foot is making you stumble, cut it off and throw it away from you; it is finer for you to enter into life maimed or lame than to be thrown with two hands or two feet into the everlasting fire. Also, if your eye is making you stumble, tear it out and throw it away from you [not, torment it]; it is finer for you to enter one-eyed into life than to be thrown with two eyes into the fiery Gehenna.” In this “fiery Gehenna” is where the “everlasting fire” burns, symbolically speaking.
Concerning Gehenna, page 764 of Volume 3 of the Cyclopædia by M’Clintock and Strong says:

In consequence of these abominations the valley was polluted by Josiah (2 Kings 23:10); subsequently to which it became the common lay-stall of the city, where the dead bodies of criminals, and the carcasses of animals, and every other kind of filth was cast, and, according to late and somewhat questionable authorities, the combustible portion consumed with fire. From the depth and narrowness of the gorge, and, perhaps, its ever-burning fires, as well as from its being the receptacle of all sorts of putrefying matter, and all that defiled the holy city, it became in later times the image of the place of everlasting punishment, “where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched;” in which the Talmudists placed the mouth of Hell: “There are two palm-trees in the valley of Hinnom, between which a smoke ariseth . . . and this is the door of Gehenna.”*
Regardless of what any reference authorities have to say regarding Gehenna, what did Jesus Christ, the Son of God, have to say about it? What did it mean for the person sentenced by God the Almighty to the symbolical Gehenna? Jesus plainly answered when he sent his twelve apostles out on missionary work and said: “And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.” (Matt. 10:28) On another occasion Jesus said to a crowd of thousands: “Moreover, I say to you, my friends, Do not fear those who kill the body and after this are not able to do anything more. But I will indicate to you whom to fear: Fear him who after killing has authority to throw into Gehenna. Yes, I tell you, fear this One.” (Luke 12:4, 5) When Almighty God destroys both body and soul of a human creature, what is left? There is complete destruction; and, because this destruction is everlasting, such destruction of human body and soul is an everlasting punishment. There is no resurrection out of such destruction.

Jesus thus used Gehenna as a symbol of complete, endless destruction, just as fire is destructive. Because the destruction is everlasting, the fire of the symbolic Gehenna is said to be “everlasting fire.” This means that such a Gehenna will always exist; it will never give up those in it; it will never be emptied, never be wiped out as Adamic death and Haʹdes(Hell) will be. (Rev. 20:13) Figuratively speaking, the symbolic Gehenna always burns and will always be available for executing any who rebel against God throughout everlasting time, all eternity.
Since the symbolic Gehenna is the place of everlasting destruction, Jesus correctly set a person’s entering into Gehenna as the opposite of one’s entering into life. Hence if anyone enters into the symbolic Gehenna, in which God destroys both body and soul, how can anyone have a resurrection to an opportunity for everlasting life in God’s heavenly kingdom or in Paradise restored here on earth under God’s kingdom? There is no resurrection from the symbolic Gehenna.

When it comes to the Lazarus and rich man Jesus spoke of, this story is symbolic. If you honestly believe this story to be literal then what you're saying is that all righteous people literally fit in the bosom of Abraham, that all those in heaven can see the unrighteous being tormented, etc. I don't believe that and I really don't care if you or anyone else speaks out against me for using my brain. You and others who believe as you do want to brainwash people into believing Jesus was saying that all righteous people literally fit in the bosom of Abraham etc. Jesus wasn't saying that no matter how many people you brainwash into believing Jesus was being literal.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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So who may I ask were the morning stars and the sons of God,and mind you God asked the question of when He hung the earth?

Angels are sons of God and they are also the morning stars. These Angels were already created and in existence long before God created the physical universe. So these morning stars were there when God created not only the universe which included the Earth but also when God created mankind.
 

Davy

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GEHENNA, or the Valley of Hinnom, is mentioned twelve times in the Christian Greek Scriptures. In the days of Jesus Christ on earth it was a fiery place and, being a valley outside the walls of Jerusalem, it was on earth. It became ....

Thus it shall be worse for those who make up falsehoods against Christ's Word that the 'soul' continues to Paradise after flesh death, as He showed in Matthew 10:28 and Luke 23:43. Reason it will be worse for those liars is because they will likely first go to the side of Paradise called hell which the rich man of Luke 16 was taken to. The future "lake of fire" event, which is named after the Valley of Hinnom, is for after Christ's future thousand years reign, and that would be next for that soothsayer.

A few verses later on in the same Sermon on the Mount Jesus shows that the sinner’s corpse is thrown into Gehenna as a crematory. In Matthew 5:29, 30 Jesus says:
“If, now, that right eye of yours is making you stumble, tear it out and throw it away from you. For it is more beneficial to you for one of your members to be lost to you than for your whole body to be pitched into Gehenna. Also, if your right hand is making you stumble, cut it off and throw it away from you [not, torment it]. For it is more beneficial for one of your members to be lost to you than for your whole body to land in Gehenna.”
From this language we see that Jesus used in a symbolical manner the ancient Gehenna that was located outside the walls of Jerusalem. Jesus did not mean that his followers should pluck out a literal eye or chop off a literal right hand. Rather, Jesus was talking about something precious that causes us to sin with the right eye or the right hand. Accordingly, then, as the eye and right hand were spoken of symbolically, Gehenna ....

The Valley of Hinnom was a place outside Jerusalem where the Jews that fell into pagan idol worship sacrificed their own children in fire! So today's rebellious Jews certainly ought to remember their screw-ups of past history, because now that Hinnom is made a place of destruction even for the devil and his, they shouldn't want to wind up there. A way to prevent winding up there is to quit listening to Jewish Talmudic traditions which are doctrines made by men and not God, and instead listen to my Lord Jesus Christ. This means stop twisting His Word of Truth especially, like instead believing what He said, as in Matthew 10:28 and Luke 16 about the soul continuing in awareness after flesh death instead of falsely assigning one's spirit with soul as a lifeless piece of earth in a casket.

Concerning Gehenna, page 764 of Volume 3 of the Cyclopædia by M’Clintock and Strong says:

In consequence of these abominations the valley was polluted by Josiah (2 Kings 23:10); subsequently to which it became the common lay-stall of the city, where the dead bodies of criminals, and the carcasses of animals, and every other kind of filth was cast, and, according to late and somewhat questionable authorities, the combustible portion consumed with fire. From the depth and narrowness of the gorge, and, perhaps, its ever-burning fires, as well as from its being the receptacle of all sorts of putrefying matter, and all that defiled the holy city, it became in later times the image of the place of everlasting punishment, “where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched;” in which the Talmudists placed the mouth of Hell: “There are two palm-trees in the valley of Hinnom, between which a smoke ariseth . . . and this is the door of Gehenna.”*
Regardless of what any reference authorities have to say regarding Gehenna, what did Jesus Christ, the Son of God, have to say about it? What did it mean for the person sentenced by God the Almighty to the symbolical Gehenna? Jesus plainly answered when he sent his twelve apostles out on missionary work and said: “And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.” (Matt. 10:28) On another occasion Jesus said to a crowd of thousands: “Moreover, I say to you, my friends, Do not fear those who kill the body and after this are not able to do anything more. But I will indicate to you whom to fear: Fear him who after killing has authority to throw into Gehenna. Yes, I tell you, fear this One.” (Luke 12:4, 5) When Almighty God destroys both body and soul of a human creature, what is left? There is complete destruction; and, because this destruction is everlasting, such destruction of human body and soul is an everlasting punishment. There is no resurrection out of such destruction.

It is NOT a flesh body that will go into the future "lake of fire", just as it is NOT the flesh body that is taken into Paradise after flesh death. It is the soul (the Id or person) and spirit (spiritual body) that is cast into the future "lake of fire", destroying it. The abode of hell (or Hades) goes into... the future "lake of fire" per Revelation 20.

When it comes to the Lazarus and rich man Jesus spoke of, this story is symbolic. If you honestly believe this story to be literal then what you're saying is that all righteous people literally fit in the bosom of Abraham, that all those in heaven can see the unrighteous being tormented, etc. I don't believe that and I really don't care if you or anyone else speaks out against me for using my brain. You and others who believe as you do want to brainwash people into believing Jesus was saying that all righteous people literally fit in the bosom of Abraham etc. Jesus wasn't saying that no matter how many people you brainwash into believing Jesus was being literal.

Doesn't matter if the story of Lazarus and the rich man is symbolic or not. The description He gave of the place where the soul goes after flesh death is real. He would not mislead us about that place, which is what false Jews try to do with saying it's just a made-up story, and doesn't reveal any reality. And in Luke 23 when Jesus told the malefactor he would be with Him that day in Paradise, that was not a symbolic story either!
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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Thus it shall be worse for those who make up falsehoods against Christ's Word that the 'soul' continues to Paradise after flesh death, as He showed in Matthew 10:28 and Luke 23:43. Reason it will be worse for those liars is because they will likely first go to the side of Paradise called hell which the rich man of Luke 16 was taken to. The future "lake of fire" event, which is named after the Valley of Hinnom, is for after Christ's future thousand years reign, and that would be next for that soothsayer.



The Valley of Hinnom was a place outside Jerusalem where the Jews that fell into pagan idol worship sacrificed their own children in fire! So today's rebellious Jews certainly ought to remember their screw-ups of past history, because now that Hinnom is made a place of destruction even for the devil and his, they shouldn't want to wind up there. A way to prevent winding up there is to quit listening to Jewish Talmudic traditions which are doctrines made by men and not God, and instead listen to my Lord Jesus Christ. This means stop twisting His Word of Truth especially, like instead believing what He said, as in Matthew 10:28 and Luke 16 about the soul continuing in awareness after flesh death instead of falsely assigning one's spirit with soul as a lifeless piece of earth in a casket.



It is NOT a flesh body that will go into the future "lake of fire", just as it is NOT the flesh body that is taken into Paradise after flesh death. It is the soul (the Id or person) and spirit (spiritual body) that is cast into the future "lake of fire", destroying it. The abode of hell (or Hades) goes into... the future "lake of fire" per Revelation 20.



Doesn't matter if the story of Lazarus and the rich man is symbolic or not. The description He gave of the place where the soul goes after flesh death is real. He would not mislead us about that place, which is what false Jews try to do with saying it's just a made-up story, and doesn't reveal any reality. And in Luke 23 when Jesus told the malefactor he would be with Him that day in Paradise, that was not a symbolic story either!

If you and others like you want to continue believing that you have a soul instead of believing what the scriptures say that you are a soul that is your right, but the scriptures don't say that and you are siding with Satan who said you don't die when you believe that way. That isn't going to change just because you choose to believe something else other than the scriptures. Like I said the scriptures say you are a soul not that you have one. Gehenna and the lake of fire are not literal places they are conditions. They represent eternal annihilation. They who are judged unworthy of a resurrection will always be in eternal nonexistence. They who have died but God has judged worthy of a resurrection God simply remembers. They don't literally exist God just remembers them. Because they don't literally exist they have no consciousness so have no feelings, memories etc.

It does matter that the story of Lazarus and the rich man is symbolic. It lets you know that Jesus wasn't wanting people to take this story literally because if they did they would believe too many false things.

Is the account, at Luke 16:19-31, literal or merely an illustration of something else? The Jerusalem Bible, in a foot note, acknowledges that it is a “parable in story form without reference to any historical personage.” If taken literally, it would mean that those enjoying divine favor could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham; that the water on one’s fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades; that a mere drop of water would bring relief to one suffering there. That doesn't sound reasonable to me.
What the story means is that The “rich man” represented the Pharisees. (See verse 14.) The beggar Lazarus represented the common Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees but who repented and became followers of Jesus. (See Luke 18:11; John 7:49; Matthew 21:31, 32.) Their deaths were also symbolic, representing a change in circumstances. Thus, the formerly despised ones came into a position of divine favor, and the formerly seemingly favored ones were rejected by God, while being tormented by the judgment messages delivered by the ones whom they had despised.—Acts 5:33; 7:54.
 

Davy

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If you and others like you want to continue believing that you have a soul instead of believing what the scriptures say that you are a soul that is your right, but the scriptures don't say that and you are siding with Satan who said you don't die when you believe that way. That isn't going to change just because you choose to believe something else other than the scriptures. Like I said the scriptures say you are a soul not that you have one. Gehenna and the lake of fire are not literal places they are conditions. They represent eternal annihilation. They who are judged unworthy of a resurrection will always be in eternal nonexistence. They who have died but God has judged worthy of a resurrection God simply remembers. They don't literally exist God just remembers them. Because they don't literally exist they have no consciousness so have no feelings, memories etc.

It does matter that the story of Lazarus and the rich man is symbolic. It lets you know that Jesus wasn't wanting people to take this story literally because if they did they would believe too many false things.

Is the account, at Luke 16:19-31, literal or merely an illustration of something else? The Jerusalem Bible, in a foot note, acknowledges that it is a “parable in story form without reference to any historical personage.” If taken literally, it would mean that those enjoying divine favor could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham; that the water on one’s fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades; that a mere drop of water would bring relief to one suffering there. That doesn't sound reasonable to me.
What the story means is that The “rich man” represented the Pharisees. (See verse 14.) The beggar Lazarus represented the common Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees but who repented and became followers of Jesus. (See Luke 18:11; John 7:49; Matthew 21:31, 32.) Their deaths were also symbolic, representing a change in circumstances. Thus, the formerly despised ones came into a position of divine favor, and the formerly seemingly favored ones were rejected by God, while being tormented by the judgment messages delivered by the ones whom they had despised.—Acts 5:33; 7:54.

The story of Lazarus and the rich man that Jesus told is in Scripture alignment with everything His Word says regarding one's soul continuing to live after the flesh body dies, a la Matthew 10:28.

But the Pharisees' idea is that the 'soul' is only a product of 'breath' and flesh coming together to make a live human flesh body walking and talking on earth. But of course the Canaanites who crept in among those Pharisees long ago would think the soul dies when the flesh dies, because they won't believe God's Word, they'd rather make up their own traditions. No wonder Jesus of Nazareth rebuked them.

To My Brethren in Christ Jesus:

Do you notice how those on the Pharisees' traditions steer away from what Jesus revealed in the Matthew 10:28 Scripture about the soul not being killed at flesh death? Notice how they like to steer around that verse as much as possible. It's really funny I think, because don't they know by doing that they tell on themselves on how they are actually against God's Word on this matter?
 
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Reggie Belafonte

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I have found no scriptures speaking of purgatory. The scriptures say that the dead whether they're righteous or unrighteous will be resurrected from hell. You just have to understand that the word "Hell" translates the Greek word "Hades" and Hades translates the Hebrew word Sheol. Sheol was simply a word to be used when talking about the place of the dead of righteous and unrighteous mankind. So whatever word you want to use, "Hell, Hades, or Sheol you're speaking of the same place.
Limbo, Abrahams bosom ?
 

Reggie Belafonte

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I would say that Paradise is the Kingdom of God. because you are with God in Christ Jesus, one who serves God and not Man and his works, so the one who was up on the cross who believed in Jesus was serving God.
Remember Jesus did not go directly to Heaven ?
Paradise is not Heaven, it's just like Adam and Eve were in before the fall and then they were outside of the Kingdom of God. so when we come to know Jesus is truly in fact the Christ and is absolutely our Lord and Saviour without a shadow of doubt, it is then that you are born again of the Holy Spirit. such a one is in Paradise the Kingdom of God.
That is the key point as Bible says, you must be born again !

Now if the majority of people were truly born again people, then Satan would have a hard time with laying his deceptions, because Gods people will expose such deceptions.